Shock Collars and Prongs

[Guest LJS1993]

While perusing another BC forum I was shocked to hear one member discussing shock collars and prongs used on Border Collies. This member claims that they have never seen a Border Collie raised without some kind of disciplinary device. I am shocked and angered by this. I have never used devices as such on my two BC's, never have really had to. Is this true? Are these devices necessary?

[stockdogranch]

Is this true? Are these devices necessary?

 

NO

 

Anna

[Samantha J]

I would never consider them and personally i don't like the choke collars either. JMO

[Guest LJS1993]

NO

 

Anna

 

 

Just making sure. I'm sure some people use them without ill effects on the dog. However I just don't see those fitting into what I want from my dog.

[red dog fan]

choke collars definately no - definate potential for tracheal injury

shock collars - no

 

prong collars - I am using one on my current foster, an 8mo with zero training. It is working well for his leash training.

[juliepoudrier]

I would never use a shock collar on a border collie, and especially not on one being trained to work stock. It's a quick way to absolutely ruin a good dog. I agree that choke chains when used inappropriately can cause a lot of physical harm. I am not opposed to prong collars but haven't had to use one on any of my dogs, so wonder if they're really necessary.

 

J.

[Root Beer]

No, they aren't necessary.

 

I have never, and will never put a shock, choke, or prong collar on a Border Collie. Just my personal preference.

[Shetlander]

I can't imagine using a shock collar on Quinn. When I was dinking around in obedience with him, I did use a very loose, rubber tipped prong collar but the tugs were very light and energizing when he was in the right position for heeling, rather than hard corrections for being out of place. Then I lost interest in pursuing the sport and not sure where the collar is now.

[red dog fan]

Sawyer (foster)has absolutely no training and will fight to get off the leash, straining so hard that he cant breathe. He has already gotten away from me once into traffic, luckily was not hurt.

It works very well for him. He learned very quickly the consequences of pulling away from me. Everwhere else he is on a long line with a martingale collar

[MrSnappy]

No, they aren't necessary.

 

Bold statement.

 

I don't have a problem with prong collars. In the rare event I need to walk all of mine somewhere on leashes, three of them walk on prongs. They outweigh me, so I prefer not to be pulled around. YES I could teach each of them to heel individually; NO, it's not worth my limited free time to do that as they are almost never on a leash anyway. Plus, each of them can and does heel individually. As a pack ... not so much.

 

As for E-Collars, they can be life saving in some circumstances. And anyone who tells me that Mr. Woo can be clickered or cookied out of chasing squirrels into the road better be prepared to come prove it to me before they warm up their typing fingers And then when he gets hit by a car, and is squashed flat, you will have some explaining to do to the board! The fact is, he can't spend his life on a leash, and killing squirrels is far more rewarding than any hot dog I could offer him. And while he is boundary trained, the desire to kill a squirrel is stronger than his boundary training, so he'll run into a road. My dog walker will no longer take him out, as he doesn't want to be responsible for coming home with a dead Woo.

 

I like him, I would like him to live, so he has an e-collar. So far, he is still alive.

 

RDM

[Allie Oop]

I don't use a choke chain, e-collar or a prong with my dogs. Rusty is a magnificent leash walker, heels great and off leash never goes very far ahead and has a 98% recall -- however, I can't take credit for that (except the recall), as he was most likely trained by his foster mom while in rescue.

 

Allie, however, thinks she is 30 lb. sled dog when leash walking and it can get pretty tedious. I have used a Halti/Gentle Leader with her (which she hates more than anything else on earth) and have had good success. Usually a session with the Gentle Leader precipitates good leash walking behavior for the next week or so and then we have to use it again as a "reminder". Off leash is a whole different thing and she is amazing -- perfect recall, heel, etc.

 

I have used a prong collar in training classes once or twice, but didn't find it as effective as the Gentle Leader. I suppose it depends on the dog, the trainer and what the dog is being trained for.

[Catu]

I second RDM and, once again, there is nothing wrong with a tool by itself but in the person and the way it is used. If you don't know how to use an electric collar (I prefer this term, because 90% of the time we've even used is not in "shock mode" but in "page mode") then don't use it, the same with any training tool, included prongs. To see a friend who uses it is not enough too, it's like auto-medication.

 

Someone who use a prong collar to avoid that the dog pulls is using it wrong in my personal opinion, I give other use to it, but yes, I use it.

 

http://www.bordercollie.org/boards/index.p...=prong&st=0

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

I do use the term shock collar, because I don't want to candy coat what it does. And I do use them. Not on dogs I intend for working situations, and I haven't had to use one in a while, but I've used them to turn around fosters that would have been unplaceable otherwise. One was a Jack Russell that was getting too interested in my cat. The other two were dogs that had OCD behaviors - one was so locked into dog chasing that she literally did or thought of nothing but doing it or getting back to it (she'd even eat and drink with her eyes locked on other dogs). The other was a horrible car chaser - same situation. Even in the house he'd run from window to window if he heard a car coming down the road.

 

I used the collar on both of them to break these "trash" behaviors and open their minds to something else, and of couse immediately substituted fun stuff.

 

I'm not a fan of devices to "make" the dog walk properly. I've trained enough insane sled dog wannabe rescues now to feel that no dog is completely hopeless in this regard, or should need to be hurt, pinched, or have their head twisted around, to get the idea that a walk means staying with me. Actually, the problem is just that I'm lazy and abesentminded, and can never find the darn things if I do want to give one a whirl - choker chains, prongs, gentle leader, whatever. I will use a collar pop to begin with but I have a reason for doing this that's really unrelated to teaching the dog to walk on the leash.

[Root Beer]

To clarify, my statement of "they are not necessary" was a specific response to the context of the OP's question:

 

This member claims that they have never seen a Border Collie raised without some kind of disciplinary device . . . I have never used devices as such on my two BC's, never have really had to. Is this true? Are these devices necessary?

 

I will say boldly that it is not the case that every Border Collie in the world must be raised with a choke, prong, or shock collar whether the dog's owner perceives a need for it or not.

 

The fact that the person to whom she is referring has "never" seen a Border Collie raised without one does not mean that she (the OP) should consider these devices "necessary" out of hand. They are not necessary as an absolute. There are plenty of Border Collies that do not require the use of corrective devices of any kind. There are many of us who do not use them nor find them necessary.

 

I beg pardon for not being clear about that.

[Liz P]

Never say never.

 

I did use a prong collar on one BC who was so insanely obsessed with cars that no other correction, reward, command, etc would stop her, even a GL didn't work. With a prong collar on she would keep walking when cars passed, but her eyes still bugged out, she foamed at the mouth and got all tense. I only used it on her long enough to teach her to drop down instantly on command, even if a car was driving past, and that lunging at cars is BAD. I think I may have actually corrected her with the collar a handful of times at the most. After that all I had to do was put the prong collar on and she was an angel.

 

That said, I have never recommended a prong collar to anyone else because in every case that I was asked for training advice it was obvious that the people did not know what they were doing and had not tried any gentle options yet. Another reason I have never recommended one is that so few dogs really need a prong collar.

[Maralynn]

I used a prong on Kipp to break the cat nipping /obssessing habit he came with (he is still quiet interested in cats, but will now "leave it" when I tell him). It was not an acceptable behavoir and he needed to learn that on no uncertain terms. Redirecting his attention would not of worked - it was just too self-rewarding to stare at/nip cats. I don't use one in everyday training (most of that is positive motivation) but in some situations it can be a very useful tool.

[Guest Freckles LaLa Mom]

I firmly believe that some dogs NEED them. My parents dogs...terroriers for example...little retardo's need to be protected from themselves. I do not think that MOST BC's would not need them. In a pack...I can see how it'd be beneficial. I do think however that most users...or rather the average user turns to this particular tool in sheer laziness. The more I see dog owners...the more I see "Lets get little timmy a puppy so he can learn responsibility" meanwhile the parents (or more often than not these days) the parent works full time and has other children....there goes training time with young spot. To sum it up, I dont feel that it is 'yes the only tool you'll ever need' or 'no never never never its cruel' While it CAN be effective I dont see most people use it correctly and obviously it can be used in a cruel manner. I believe the success is dictated by its use and the dog. Some dogs simply need that sort of training in my opinion but I think that is a very very small minority. Most dogs... I believe 95%+ can be trained if people just take the time and effort to train said dog. ok...rant over.

[Guest WoobiesMom]

I've seen good responses with responsible owners with both products. A gentleman who visits our dog park has a giant schnauzer. The collar he uses has a control that hangs around his neck. The first warning is a vibration, 2nd is a low sound (I think), then a very low shock, then a higher one, and finally a sharp one. None of them are able to last longer than a certain amount of time (like 1-2 seconds I think he said) so even if he held down the button, it would not continue to shock his dog. The control has 4-5 different buttons, one for each warning, so he could jump from the vibration to the sharp correction if he needed to. He always calls to the dog first before even using the collar. His dog has great control (now) and he's never had to use the higher settings when I've been there. I think it could save some dogs who might engage in dangerous (running into the street, chasing cars, etc) behavior.

 

All the dogs except Woobie in our training class use prong collars. I have seen their dogs progress faster than we do, but I think Woobie's response to a prong collar would be bad. He's too sensitive and skittish at this stage with me, but I don't rule out its possible use for the future. If used correctly, I don't think it's a bad thing.

 

I don't think there are too many bad training tools, just poorly used in the wrong hands. I had an amazingly trained Lab when I was a kid and we used a choke collar on her because that's how she'd been obedience trained prior to us getting her. She had no problems and we were taught to use it correctly. My stupid ex was able to choke my Airedale as a correction with a flat collar. An idiot will find a way to harm a dog, regardless of the tool it chooses.

[Guest WoobiesMom]

I've trained enough insane sled dog wannabe rescues now to feel that no dog is completely hopeless in this regard, or should need to be hurt, pinched, or have their head twisted around, to get the idea that a walk means staying with me.

 

How did you do it? I'm still trying lots of different things to try to break Woobie of pulling. The only thing that's had some success is the turning and going in the other direction trick but I usually have to do it for 30 minutes before he finally gives in and I look pretty silly out on our walking trails. (Not to mention getting pretty dizzy!) Please share your secret!

[WyoBC]

I agree that some dogs do need extra help with training or learning what they need to do. So in that case I can see someone using one. But I would never use one just because I wanted to, or just becasue "I always have". I haven't ever used one (choke, prong, or shock collar) on any of the dogs I have been around. I remember one time at the shelter they put one one Black Jack for me to walk him and it got tangled and almost cut his breathing off. I got it off in time but it wasn't good. (they don't use them anymore on walks )

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

Sorry, no huge secrets. You just look silly for a while. I have a sidewalk about thrity feet long out my back door and my rescues all start their training there. About a week of just walking back and forth and I can drape my long line over my shoulder. I'll have to do a refresher course usually when starting exposure to stock, but for long walks that aren't in sight of sheep it works fine.

 

One trick that I've not seen others do (which I can't claim credit for, my friend KillerH showed me this): dog forges, you back up. Use a nice long line and eventually the dog realizes he's not in the lead anymore. Then he feels stupid and comes back. I'm impatient so sometimes I'll give the line a little tug to remind the dog I exist. No more than that. When he's back at my side we go forward again.

 

When a dog goes wrong it's best to give the dog a chance to fix it himself, and backing up does that nicely. Turning around, on the other hand, "makes" the dog right = although there's a place for the walking in a square technique also, once the dog understands his job is to keep his eye on you and not take the lead.

 

And sorry, yes, one doesn't go anywhere for a while, and one does look awfully stupid. But better a couple weeks of that than a lifetime of being dragged around by a 40 pound dog.

[painted_ponies]

I would never use a shock collar on a border collie, and especially not on one being trained to work stock. It's a quick way to absolutely ruin a good dog.

 

How do shock collars ruin a dog for stock? Not that I'd ever use one - poor Vi would be emotionally scarred for life and Faith would surreptitiously re-wire it so the darn thing shocked me instead. I'm just curious. Would the shock collars used in conjunction with invisible fencing have the same effect?

[kelpiegirl]

If I may, I would think using a shock collar when working sheep is rather like taking an extremely talented piano player with raw talent, and shocking them when they hit a wrong note. Soon you have a dog who is afraid to take another step for fear of the shock.

Julie

 

How do shock collars ruin a dog for stock? Not that I'd ever use one - poor Vi would be emotionally scarred for life and Faith would surreptitiously re-wire it so the darn thing shocked me instead. I'm just curious. Would the shock collars used in conjunction with invisible fencing have the same effect?

[SilverWolf73]

Luckily my border collie doesn't pull, is a very submissive dog and I have no problems walking her on a loose leash. On the other hand, my schnauzer/ terrier mix, who is six years old and should know better by now, is VERY dominant and once she is excited by the prospect of going for a walk, her IQ drops by about 50 points and she forgets who's in charge! I have tried everything...prong collars worked for a while but she is very dog aggressive so I think it was making her more aggressive that if she saw a dog and started pulling and lunging, in her mind the pinching from the collar was the other dog's fault, which made her want to kill that dog even more!! I tried a Gentle leader, but she refused to use it (I tried for over a month) and our walks were spent with her basically throwing a fit and trying to get it off the entire time. I tried the gentle leader harness for a while and that helped, but she still manages to pull just enough so that it gets annoying after a while. I recently got another gentle leader and the video to go with it. It is working better this time because now I have if fit correctly and am not allowing her to pull at all, but even still our walks consist of walking about 4 steps on loose leash, her going to the end and beginning to pull, my pulling her back and releasing tension, and repeat that process indefinitly. And if she sees another dog, forget it, she throws a fit, tries to get it off, etc, etc. Very frustrating for an otherwise very smart, biddable and enjoyable dog....I do not enjoy our walks!!

[painted_ponies]

If I may, I would think using a shock collar when working sheep is rather like taking an extremely talented piano player with raw talent, and shocking them when they hit a wrong note. Soon you have a dog who is afraid to take another step for fear of the shock.

Julie

 

Oh! I didn't realize we were talking about using shock collars while the dog was actually working stock. Yes, I can see how that would ruin a dog.