Turbo Trouble

[Turbo4go]

I just started training Turbo for agility a week ago. Turbo is a 10 month old male BC, and is proving to be as fast as his name. The breeder warned me about that . He has already picked up on doing 4 jumps set at 18", a tunnel, dog walk and 8 weave poles. Problem is, he gets way ahead of me as he wants to go flat out. He leaps 3/4 of the way up the dog walk, and jumps from it half way down, and heads for the next jump. I have the weave poles spread to allow a 12" stagger, and he is starting real good, but half way through, takes off for the next obstacle, the tunnel. I have tried walking him through the weave poles and over the dog walk, but he just can't seem to grasp the concept of slowing down. He is like a run-away truck. I should note, the dog walk is set at only 24", so I do have his safety in mind at all times. Once he starts the course, I am having a problem keeping him focused on me. Do you think we have to go back to obedience training, or is there something I can do to get him to slow down. Even as a pup, during obedience training, he would tear over the A frame full tilt, as that is how the older dogs were doing it. Could his bad habits have started then, or is this just normal BC behavior. This is my first time owning a BC, as I have always had Springer Spaniels in the past, and I am learning daily how to work with a BC. Currently there are no Agility training classes close by, unless I booked privately, which I can't afford, so I am on my own for several more months. Any help would sure be appreciated.

Thanks : Dennis

[abbies_mumma]

This may be a stupid question but- have you taught each obstacle separately before sequencing? If each obstacle has been taught individually first he is more likely to do well when you start sequencing. Also you might want to teach him contacts so he stops at the end of the contact obstacles and does not jump off and injure himself.

I taught Abbie by first teaching her to sit at the end of the obstacle (2o2o- back legs on front legs off) I made sure she was stopping reliably at the end of the obstacle before she was allowed to do the full obstacle. You can make a game out of it- get your dog to go through a short tunnel or over a low jump the teach him to jump on the end of the obstacle and stop. Proof that by running around or throwing treats or toys while he has to stay in his contact position. When he reliably stops at his position, you can then have him go over the full obstacle and have him stop in his position. But don't use a command for his "contact position" because then he will wait for you to stay 'stop' or whatever and you might forget- what i'm saying is its less for you to think about if he stops automatically.

Also, use his speed to your advantage. Teach him left/right, follow my hands, come, go, out etc so you can direct him from a distance.

Remember- don't sequence until he knows what his job is for each obstacle.

Hope that helped.

Abbies mum.

[Kat's Dogs]

First of all, this is a lot even for a 10 month old. Jumps should still be no higher than elbow height, and even then the lower the better. Until she was a little over a year old my girl only did 12" jumps at the MOST. Also any weaving (twisting on the spine like that) should be kept until later as well as contact equipment that is at full height.

 

I would suggest doing more obedience work and basic control. Agility is a team sport, it does no good if the dog does all the equipment and just leaves you in the dust. Turbo needs to be working with you, if not, then he shouldn't be allowed to play the game at that time. With BCs, playing the game is the biggest reward, and if they don't play it right (most of all meaning unsafe) then they don't get to play.

 

I would also not try to "slow him down". That is not really what you want to do. What you DO want to do is teach him some self control. Teaching a contact behavior (even if you are doing running contacts) should start as soon as the dog is on contact equipment. Somehow, there needs to be a rule for going ALL the way down the contact obstacle (in the case of some contact behaviors, not leaving the obstacle until you release). Doing some start line stay games can help (set up in a stay behind some fun obstacles and reward like CRAZY for the stay, do this many times for an entire training session and at no point let the dog do any equipment - this teaches a lot of self control and really gets nice start lines later). Doing call off games and be very helpful (a line 4 of jumps, after the first 2 or 3 call him to you and give a ton of praise if he comes to you and doesn't do the remaining jumps. it really gets the dogs listening and playing with you because it is FUN to do so). Also doing targeting with your hand (teaching the dog to touch their nose to your palm on command, eventually following your hand) is both helpful and important for when you try to run courses later and you want the dog to follow your body language/hand signals.

 

If he doesn't know how to do the obstacles properly (weaving all the way through, contacts, etc - which is still a bit much at his age anyway...) then he shouldn't be doing anything in sequence. That can make for bad habits later. He should know how to do each obstacle correctly before putting that obstacle in a sequence. If you let him skip poles now, later when you are on a full course he will still skip poles because that is how he knows to do them in a sequence of obstacles.

 

None of that was meant to sound harsh or anything but there are a lot of steps between point A and point B that shouldn't be forgotten. Hopefully this was a little bit helpful....

[quicksilver]

Hi,

do not try to slow him down - you'd regret that at a later date.

 

But you do need to make sure you teach him directional commands - http://www.agilityaddicts.freeuk.com/aatipsdirectionals.htm - thoroughly, so that he will turn away from you on a sequence of obstacles, as well as towards. Work on distance control in general, on the ground away from the equipment. Send him around trees etc - get him sensitive to your body language.

 

As others have said, you also need to teach a contact behaviour, otherwise it'll be very frustrating to keep having the fastest time in competition except that he leapt off the contacts.

 

Good luck!

[Shetlander]

I agree with everything Kat's Dogs said. If Turbo is only 10 months old and just in his first week of agility, he should not be doing entire sequences, full height contacts, 18 inch jumps and anything but very open weaves or better yet entries only. He is still growing so you want to be very careful of his growth plates. His brain is still maturing as well so you want to keep things clear and simple for him.

 

For a very fast dog, you may want to really work on contacts where he will stop and superb start line stays so you can lead out. Instead of trying to slow your dog down, it's generally better to teach him how to work at a distance with things like directionals, layering and again, lead outs. You definitely don't want Turbo thinking he gets to do obstacles whenever and how ever he decides so more obedience training may be helpful. I'm a little confused about how he was running over an A-Frame at obedience class? I won't say Quinn didn't sneak in a full sized dogwalk at my club a couple times when he was little, but it was something I made sure didn't become a (bad) habit.

 

I highly recommend Susan Garret's book Shaping Success which is about how she raised and trained her over the top Border Collie for agility. Not only is it a great story, but it's a wonderful primer for training an agility dog and raising a Border Collie for that matter. I didn't follow everything she did (for example she does 2 On/2 Off for the contacts and I chose to do 1 Rear Toe On and I don't do her Ruff Love program) but I read that book a few times through and consulted it often. It was my bible as I raised Quinn who is my first BC. I also highly recommend Clean Run's Puppy Issue which you can order off their website along with a bunch of great books and DVD's.

 

It is not an absolute must of course, but finding a skilled instructor is very important and can make all the difference for your dog's successful agility career. I spent Quinn's first year working on contacts and lead outs on my own with lots of emphasis on teaching him self-control. I was extremely lucky to find a great instructor 90 minutes away (I live in a bit of an desert when it comes to agility instruction) and took weekly classes with her for 6 months. Now I go to her monthly for private lessons. One of the things she'll say is "Agility is a million tiny things that you need to get right." Of course that is a bit of an exageration but honestly the more I do agility, the more I feel like I don't understand everything I need to be doing and training.

 

Foundation building takes time but will pay off immensely. Decide what contact performance you want for each obstacle and then follow the steps to work towards that. For instance, with 1RTO you start with a board on the ground. Keep jumps very low or only use the uprights. Train working on the flat so Turbo learns how to respond to your cues and movement. Train rock solid lead outs. When he has all that down, then start with very short sequences and work up to full courses as Turbo is successful at longer and longer chains of behaviors.

 

 

Turbo sounds like a great agility dog -- fast and driven. There is a lot that goes into getting a smooth, accurate performance out of such a dog (I'm not there with Quinn by the way ), but the rewards are huge when you finally get there. If an instructor is simply not a possibility right now, then the next best thing is getting some good books and DVD's. Also a seminar, with it's one time cost might prove very helpful to building the foundation you will want and need in your wonderful pup.

[Turbo4go]

I thank everyone for all the help and advise. Clearly, I have made some major mistakes, as yes Turbo has been runnig a sequence of obstacles. I did set the jump heigth at 12", but he jumped over them like they were 24", so I split the difference with him. I will lower them, but I doubt he'll care. I really appreciate all the tips on what to obtain in training books and videos, and will get them quickly. I also think a refresher on obedience is in order, and apparently more training for me also. Turbo is fast both in speed and learning ability, and I have been trying to keep up with both. This is my first BC, previously I worked with Springer Spaniels trained for field trials, so agility is also new to me. While both breeds are very inteligent, it seems a BC wants to accomplish a task in half the time. I'll go back to getting Turbo to master only one obstacle, and when he has learned to do all of them, then add a sequence of 2, then when he masters that, go to 3. I just hope he doesn't get bored.

Turbo is a very big boy, 22" at the withers, and weighs 60 lbs., and I hope he has stoped growing. All the pups from the litter are equal in size, as was the father.

In answer to Shetlander's question, "how did he start doing a full size A-frame" . When Turbo was 12 weeks old, he started obedience training at a facility that also taught agility. Every 15 minutes or so, we'd let the pups relax and play as the class was small, and only puppys. There was a group using the facility at the same time teaching agility, and on ocasion, after seeing what the older dogs were doing, and I guess, thinking it looked like fun, take off and run the A-frame. It was a negative for obedience, but a fun new game for them. Chalk it up to fearless youthfull exuberance.

[Kat's Dogs]

Turbo IS a big boy! I am glad you are so open to more information and willing to adjust your training program.

 

For the jumping part, it is essential that the dog jumps correctly, jumping way over the bar is not correct jumping and isn't safe.

 

These photos of Dazzle show it clearly:

Before jump training. See how she is kind of all over the place, and way over the bar?

really bad picture, but you get the idea:

 

After. Notice she is right on top of the bar, and all her front paws are tucked up tight, back paws clear of the bar - she really learned how to handle her body over a jump:

photo by Infinite Exposures

 

Although not as ugly as Dazzle's "before" this is also incorrect jumping (much higher than necessary):

 

I highly recommend the book "Jumping from A to Z". That is the book that I taught Dazzle out of and she will hardly ever knock a bar except in weird circumstances and she jumps very close to the bars and correctly/safely. A lot of trainers/competitiors think that teaching the dog to go over the jump means the dog knows how to "jump" but there is a lot more in that area of training that needs to be done. First, just getting the dog to go over a jump with a head on approach correctly is easier said than done, but then the dog also needs to learn how to splice jumps (take them at an angle) like this:

or turn correctly while going over the jump to avoid injury or a knocked bar, as well as be able to listen and watch you without loosing focus and knocking bars (or taking out the entire jump like Dazzle did once )

 

Teaching a dog to jump is a long process and shouldn't be overlooked. That book (jumping from A to Z) as well as many of the other great DVDs/books at http://www.cleanrun.com/storehome.cfm will really help to make sure Turbo gets a full jump training program going.

 

Best of luck! I know that not to far from now Trubo is going to be one amazing agility dog!

[Turbo4go]

Thank You for the pictures. Turbo is currently jumping like Dazzle, in the first two pictures. Is it training so much as maturity and experience that improves the dogs style points ? We spent the afternoon concentrating on just the dog walk, and stoping on the contact points, and I can proudly say, I think he is starting to get it. When he does it correctly, I allow him to run through the tunnel, as that to him is a real treat. He loves it ! He then gets a doggie treat and a short game of tug. Tugging on a rope is his ultimate joy. We have kitchen chairs with wheels, and a tiled floor. Turbo loves to play tug in the house, regardless of what I am doing. Can you picture what happens when he decides to play tug while I'm sitting in the kitchen. Right, I'm pulled all over the kitchen, and he thinks that is just the greatest thing.

I did notice today that I was wrong with the jump heigths. There is no 18" as the jumps were made in 4" incriments. Turbo has been jumping at 16". By his size though, will we compete at 20" or 24" ? Turbo is 22" at the withers now. We will probably be entering CPE trials in September when he is 15 months.

I shoud mention, Turbo looks exactly like Dazzel, they could be twins. I will post pictures as soon as we get a new camera.

 

Dennis

[Kat's Dogs]

Dazzle is about 20-21 at the shoulder and jumps 20" (except that in NADAC I chose to jumper her at 16" for her first trials) - in CPE Turbo would jump 20" - as long as he doesn't get any bigger!

As far as maturity goes and jumping, well, it sure didn't improve Dazzle! For her it was all in the training really.

 

Rewarding agility WITH agility is about all you can do with these guys! If Dazzle has a good run, the greatest reward for her is getting to go do it again! I can't wait for pictures of the Dazzle look-a-like

 

Good luck with those contacts...