Welsh Sheepdogs - Welsh border collies?

[Tommy Coyote]

I had never heard of Welsh sheepdogs. I've been out looking at pictures and they kind of look like border collies and some look just like border collies.

 

Are they the same? Just border collies that were isolated in Wales? Or are they a different dog?

[WildFlower]

Looks like a BC to me but Wikipedia says otherwise...

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welsh_Sheepdog

 

I'd be curious to know if anyone else has better knowledge of this...

 

Daisy is from moslty Welsh lines.

[BustopherJones]

This site may be of some interest: Welsh Sheepdogs

 

The Welsh Sheepdog is a breed unto itself. According to Wikipedia, they are longer in leg, broader in chest and wider in muzzle than the Border Collie. Over the years, the Welsh Sheepdog has been widely replaced in Wales for working sheep by the Border Collie, but in more recent years efforts have been made to maintain the indigenous Welsh Sheepdog as a distinct type. Welsh Sheepdogs are usually of loose-eyed action, not fixing the stock with their gaze like the strong-eyed Border Collie. Welsh Sheepdogs are most often used for herding sheep, but also readily work cattle, goats, and even horses and pigs. Traditionally they were often used as droving dogs to take cattle and sheep to markets locally or elsewhere in Britain.

[JohnLloydJones]

Are they the same? Just border collies that were isolated in Wales? Or are they a different dog?

 

They're not the same, but yes they do look very similar. Their working style is loose-eyed and they are preferred by some sheep farmers for their ability to work more independently and at greater distance.

[Kelliwic Border Collies]

Check out their Registration requirements. They almost got it right:

Emphasis is placed on the working ability of the dogs – just to look the part is insufficient. The Society requires that breeding stock are formally assessed in a working environment before their progeny can be registered. This is essential in order to develop the working ethic that is the essence of the Welsh Sheepdog.

 

But then they blew it:

The dog should be of sound and sturdy physical appearance. It should be able to move a flock of sheep in a masterful manner with a minimum of command and should preferably bark when required or under pressure. High tail carriage is preferred.

 

A dog will fail the assessment if it 'sets' when approaching sheep. Set is defined as a visible lowering of the body towards the ground, and/or stretching of the head and neck forward horizontally or downwards. Watching the sheep steadily or dropping the head slightly is acceptable.

 

Bold emphasis mine. Clearly they don't want their dogs to be Border Collie-ish, but preferring a certain tail carriage or excluding dogs that are not upright workers, is IMO perhaps a roadblock to their goals?

[Kelliwic Border Collies]

they are preferred by some sheep farmers for their ability to work more independently and at greater distance.

 

JLJ, am I misunderstanding you somehow? This sounds like you don't think Border Collies can work independently and/or at great distances.

[JohnLloydJones]

JLJ, am I misunderstanding you somehow? This sounds like you don't think Border Collies can work independently and/or at great distances.

 

No, that was not my intended meaning. What they claim for the Welsh Sheepdog is that they are better than border collies for gathering sheep from the rugged mountain terrain where the sheep are scattered over great distance and frequently out of sight. I know very well that border collies can do this too, but their strong eyed working style comes to it's best when they are working close. The border collie is, for better or worse, the product of selecting for ISDS sheepdog trials.

[Tommy Coyote]

This discription sounds like hunt-away dogs. They carry their tails high and bark.

 

How reliable is Wikapedia? Where does the information out there come from?

[Journey]

but their strong eyed working style comes to it's best when they are working close. The border collie is, for better or worse, the product of selecting for ISDS sheepdog trials.

 

Please elaborate on these 2 comments.

[Tommy Coyote]

I just found a good site that really explains the Welsh Collie . Herding on the web.com.

 

They said the Welsh sheepdogs were developed in the 19th Century and are a cross between border collies and several of the Welsh farm dogs. They are loose eyed and work in close. And they almost disappeared as the border collie got more popular. But now there are people trying to preserve the breed and they are being bred.

 

They also are the ancestors of the Australian Shepherd.

 

But the working style really does sound like the hunt away style dogs that they use so much in Australia where they have the huge flocks.

[Kelliwic Border Collies]

JLJ, thanks for clarifiying what you had intended to say.

 

This discription sounds like hunt-away dogs. They carry their tails high and bark.

 

How reliable is Wikapedia? Where does the information out there come from?

 

Tommy, Wikipedia can generally be edited by anyone, so while it's good to get a "quick and dirty" general idea about something, it may not be accurate.

 

A general FYI, the info I quoted came from the Welsh Sheepdogs site that BustopherJones posted.

[JohnLloydJones]

Please elaborate on these 2 comments.

 

What I was trying to say is that the modern border collie is the result of a selection process where fitness for breeding has, to a large degree, been defined by the dogs' ISDS trialling performance.

 

See this short article (Scroll down to HOW DOES THE WELSH SHEEP DOG WORK AND HOW IS IT DIFFERENT FROM THE BORDER COLLIE?). That reference should also answers the question about why high tail carriage is preferred.

 

Added: The suggested relationship to the Australian Shepard is interesting, but seems to be speculative. Maybe genetic studies of the breeds could cast light on that. What we now regard as distinct breeds emerged from a diverse pool of "sheepdogs" that were selected for specific working conditions. The conditions in Britain -- a trading nation shaped by the industrial revolution with its mechanized looms but with limited availability of "easy" pastures -- made sheepdogs a necessity. Our border collie is the refinement of this selection process.

[Journey]

They are loose eyed and work in close.

 

But that contradicts what JLJ said does it not?

[BustopherJones]

There are two fundamental differences betweeen Border Collies and Welsh Sheepdogs:

 

First, a Border Collie responds to commands; the bond between handler and dog is based on audible (and/or sometimes visual) signals. Optimum use of a Border Collie is attained when the dog is within sight and hearing distance of its handler. A Welsh Sheepdog works independently; it can work in close as well, but it can also work effectively when it is out of sight and/or earshot of its handler. This is NOT to say that a Border Collie cannot work independently and/or out of sight or earshot; but the most effective use of a Border Collie entails close communication and rapport between handler and dog.

 

Second, a Border Collie relies on its "hard eye" to gain and maintain control; a Welsh Sheepdog uses its bark (and sometimes its teeth) to establish control.

[Kelliwic Border Collies]

Optimum use of a Border Collie is attained when the dog is within sight and hearing distance of its handler. A Welsh Sheepdog works independently; it can work in close as well, but it can also work effectively when it is out of sight and/or earshot of its handler. This is NOT to say that a Border Collie cannot work independently and/or out of sight or earshot; but the most effective use of a Border Collie entails close communication and rapport between handler and dog.

 

This is an interesting perspective. I thought the ability to work and gather at a distance, hill dog thing was how and why the Border Collie was developed.

 

Have you seen the video The Year of the Working Sheepdog? In my opinion, this clearly defines the work for which the breed was developed (in other words, I do not see the dogs in this video as an example of the "exception to the rule"). Some at-hand work is shown, yes...and lots of long distance, potentially hazardous gathers where the dog needs to be sensible and use its own judgement.

 

I agree to a point with JLJ's statement that modern breeding selection is influenced by trials. But I would propose that trials have had some degree of influence on breeding for as long as there have been trials. People often want to breed to the winners, which is natural, I suppose; better to breed to the dog whose work you've seen in person and admired rather than taking someone's word for how good his dog is back home.

 

ETA: JLJ interesting article, thanks for the link to the BC Museum page. It is rather ironic that the dog working at the bottom of the page has its tail low in all the photos but one, and in one other photo it is partway up. I wonder what the registry assessors would think of its style.

[Pam Wolf]

If they were so good why did they loose favor to the Border Collie? Didn't the Border Collie push them out of their usefulness?

 

My Border Collies don't usually have to do the hugh distances of the hills in GB, but they DO have to work out of sight on a regular basis. Additionally, we have difficult terrain, so if the dog isn't careful there is likely to be problems/injuries to both dog and sheep. I have yet to see a loose eyed dog I'd trust in these situations. And I have seen some pretty good loose eyed dogs.

[C Crocker]

No, that was not my intended meaning. What they claim for the Welsh Sheepdog is that they are better than border collies for gathering sheep from the rugged mountain terrain where the sheep are scattered over great distance and frequently out of sight. I know very well that border collies can do this too, but their strong eyed working style comes to it's best when they are working close. The border collie is, for better or worse, the product of selecting for ISDS sheepdog trials.

 

 

 

I would have to disagree with this thought you posed in this quote. I know nothing of Welsh Sheepdogs but do know a Welsh shepherd who runs approx 1500 sheep and 400 head of cattle and uses his Border Collies daily in his work. Border Collies were bred to go the distance to gather stock and do so to this day no matter the terrain. Gathers of a mile are not uncommon in everyday work. By coincidence this man also trials his Border Collies ,including being a Welsh team member for several years and competing /placing at the International. He was also one of the judges at the 2008 World Trial. That said he will be the first to tell you that his Border Collies are work dogs first, trial dogs second, as he needs them for his livelihood. In fact he told me he works his young dogs for at least a year on the farm before he ever trials them. The daily work is what trains them, in his situation. He is not all that unique in the UK. Of course you are correct that Border Collies are good workers up close as well .

[Ooky]

This is the same argument I've heard from kelpie people about why they prefer kelpies to border collies. Although the kelpies I've seen have a low tail, style, and a lot of eye, so that difference is not as pronounced, at least. I've also heard kelpies are generally physically tougher (esp feet) and better in the heat than BCs, and then the standard-issue short coat for the breed is a further plus. But when I've asked about "why do you choose kelpies for working your livestock" in terms of working characteristics, I was told from more than one kelpie-phile that BCs are best used closer in and that their biddability is second to none. Kelpies are supposedly more independent from the handler; which can be on one hand annoying and tough to get them to do what you want, but when you have a lot of terrain that doesn't keep the sheep and dog visible (like they are when you are facing a hillside); i.e. where you spend a lot of time not seeing the stock or the dogs (heavy brush, deep draws, backsides of hills), they will typically continue to make good choices without any handler input at I guess a higher rate than most BCs would.

 

BTW, these are not my opinions. I don't know enough about it to have an opinion, it's just I've heard the reasoning from more than one person and it sounds similar to what JLJ was saying. The people I talked to weren't disparaging of BCs, in fact quite respectful. But kelpies are their breed of choice for their own operations and this was the explanation I was given.

[Sue R]

I think it's great that there are breed options - not everyone has the same situation or the same personality, and what works best for one may not be someone else's choice - either due to the work needed or the handler's own personal preferences.

 

I'm reading some contradictory comments above from different people, which causes me to wonder about some of the source information. However, I think that may also illustrate that there can be quite a lot of variability within a breed that is propagated for a purpose rather than a "breed standard", and I think that's a good thing.

 

I've seen purpose-bred Border Collies, ACDs, Aussies, Kelpies, and HTDs that are terrific dogs and can do a very useful day's work. I have my preferences, and others will have theirs.

[juliepoudrier]

but when you have a lot of terrain that doesn't keep the sheep and dog visible (like they are when you are facing a hillside); i.e. where you spend a lot of time not seeing the stock or the dogs (heavy brush, deep draws, backsides of hills), they will typically continue to make good choices without any handler input at I guess a higher rate than most BCs would.

The reason I find this difficult to believe is that I've seen the hills in the UK and they aren't wide open vistas where everything can be seen clearly and then directed closely. At one farm I visited in Wales (a working farm, whose shepherd/owner also trials and has been a member of the Welsh team), the distances were great, but you could see dog and sheep pretty much the entire time (a direct contradiction to the supposition that one needs a Welsh sheepdog to work independently because you can't see the sheep for the terrain). I watched one of his dogs (a border collie) gather sheep from a steep valley with almost no commands from Richard. As someone else noted, "The Year of the Working Sheepdog" also belies the belief that one has to be able to see and direct a border collie to get a gather done. One of the defining characteristics of the border collie is that it is a natural gathering dog. I think people look at trial dogs, who appear to be commanded every step of the way, and conclude that border collies require that sort of direction all the time. The fact is that dogs at trials are commanded a lot because points of depend on straightness of the lines, something that isn't a great consideration when gathering the hill in the UK or a pasture or the range here in the US. In truth, most handlers I know allow their dogs to work independently, especially when starting out--that's how they learn to read sheep properly and react appropriately, only bringing out the string of commands at trials or after the young dog has learned to read and work sheep on its own. I routinely have one of my dogs bring up the flock in the dark--I have to trust her to go get them all and bring them to me while I am unable to see the dog or the sheep. I have done this at a trial where I was setting sheep and was responsible for letting the sheep out to graze after the trial and putting them up in their night pen for safety. I was able to trust my dog to gather the entire unfamiliar flock in the dark on an unfamiliar field that included a pond and an upper pasture (where the sheep were) that could be accessed only by crossing the dam. This is not an exception to the rule.

 

If I had to make a wild guess, I'd guess that the Welsh collie was a local strain of the type of dog that eventually became what we call the border collie. It may have been something of a jack of all trades, and barking was considered part of its working style. I think it's fairly well accepted that before the advent of easy travel, the border collie breed was really a more isolated series of strains of regional dogs. Clearly someone in south Wales wasn't going to be crossing his good working dog with a great working dog from northern Scotland or Ireland--he would choose another local dog, hence the local strains, of which I assume the Welsh collie was one. (As an aside, if you ask the AKC bearded collie folks, they will tell you that the bearded collie was used to gather sheep off brushy hillsides where the dog had to use bark to move sheep and where neither sheep nor dog could easily be seen by the shepherd, and that this was a job the border collie couldn't do as well. Sounds similar to what's being said about the Welsh collie, huh?)

 

I find it funny that the Welsh collie and kelpie folk state that their dogs are more suitable for distance, out-of-sight work and border collies are better at close in work. Try telling that to all the folks on a list like Herd-L, where the opposite is mantra of the folks who have breeds other than border collies (i.e., that border collies are mainly suitable for large field work and all their breeds are best suited for the close-in work, which is also used as justification for the tiny trial spaces, etc. that are prevalent in AKC, AHBA, etc., trialing--"it's more representative of the real farm work their breeds were meant to do").

 

J.

[Pam Wolf]

Kelpies are very similar to Border Collies. Overall from the few I"ve seen I'd say they are less biddable. I have heard Border Collies are better at close work also, but could this not mean that they are more biddable and listen better close at hand, not that they don't work well at distances nor on their own?

 

My own Kelpie is fairly biddable, but has many training 'glitches' which he came with. I am not sure if these will all be fixed at this age (he's 6). But he is useful and not unlike several of my Border Collies. Like most I've seen he likes to stay on his feet, is wide running and it was difficult to teach him how to drive any distance. He is a very strong natural header. And yes, he can jump. Haven't had a chance to get him running backs, but his niblefootedness should be helpful should the need arise. But then I've had Border Collies run backs, so it's nothing the Kelpie alone does.

[Ooky]

Kelpies are very similar to Border Collies. Overall from the few I"ve seen I'd say they are less biddable. I have heard Border Collies are better at close work also, but could this not mean that they are more biddable and listen better close at hand, not that they don't work well at distances nor on their own?

 

Yes, sorry this was what I meant. They maintained the tradeoff was biddability (BC's strong suit) vs. independent temperament (kelpie's strong suit), but that neither breed was completely lacking in either department.

[C Crocker]

Kelpies are very similar to Border Collies. Overall from the few I"ve seen I'd say they are less biddable. I have heard Border Collies are better at close work also, but could this not mean that they are more biddable and listen better close at hand, not that they don't work well at distances nor on their own?

 

My own Kelpie is fairly biddable, but has many training 'glitches' which he came with. I am not sure if these will all be fixed at this age (he's 6). But he is useful and not unlike several of my Border Collies. Like most I've seen he likes to stay on his feet, is wide running and it was difficult to teach him how to drive any distance. He is a very strong natural header. And yes, he can jump. Haven't had a chance to get him running backs, but his niblefootedness should be helpful should the need arise. But then I've had Border Collies run backs, so it's nothing the Kelpie alone does.

 

 

 

You mention of running backs with the Kelpie reminded me of another thing the Welsh shepherd I refered to in my other post said to me--some of his Border Collies run on on the backs of sheep to encourage forward movement of a large flock (usually in a fenced area/lane of course) Oh and the Border Collies that do this are the same ones that he takes to the Nationals and Internaionals.

[Sue R]

My trainer and I worked Celt and Bute in a packed pen at a lesson. Light, skinny Bute easily jumped on backs to get to heads or, conversely, slid under sheep tummies to accomplish the same thing. Celt would have sooner died than try either of those tricks!

[BorderCollieSam]

The hills of Scotland are a lot different from the hills of Wales, i do mountaineering and what appears to be the summit of a hill from the bottom, is only the beginning.....as the hills flatten out for a while when you reach the (what you thought was the summit) they flatten out for a while and then start climbing again, and repeat this motion for a considerable distance.

 

Although i am sure certain parts of Wales i.e., Snowdonia National Park may be a little more like Scotland, the vast majority of Wales is a little less hilly than Scotland, and i believe you could possibly see the sheep and dogs much easier.