Dropping the Frisbee..

[Jimmyd65]

I'm new to the site so forgive me if this question is redundant. We have a 9 month old BC. She is great retrieving and catching the frisbee, however SHE hates to give it up... Does anyone have a suggestion on what to do to correct this? Thanks.

[Ninso]

I would first try using two frisbees. When she retreives one, show her the other one and give her a "drop" command. If you need to (e.g., if she is not interested in the second disc), make the second disc really exciting by waving it around or running away from her with it to incite her prey drive. The very second she drops the first frisbee mark the drop with "yes" or whatever your marker word is and reward her by either stuffing the second disc in her mouth for a game of tug or throwing her a roller if she won't tug. The reason she won't drop the frisbee is because she doesn't want the game to end, so you just need to show her that the game is going to continue, just with a different disc, and also that the way to make the game continue is to drop the disc. When she starts to respond consistently to the "drop" command, start hiding the second disc behind your back as you give the command.

[Ninso]

P.S. Just a word of caution . . . watch the jumping until she's at least a year old. Try to keep your throws as low as possible so she won't need to jump for them.

[Jimmyd65]

Ninso, thanks for the tip. We'll give that a try. And thanks for letting me know about jumping, she definately wants to go up for the disk.

[mtnbound]

Agreed with Ninso on the jumping; many recommend to avoid jumping until 18months as the growth plates are still moving until then. At this stage, definitely keep the sessions short to avoid any long-term joint issues. Keep us posted on her "dropping" progress!

[desertranger]

I have the same problem with Jin. He knows what I want (the ball in my hand) and he will let me take it but I can't get him to drop it in my hand. He does come up and drop it at my feet when he wants attention.

 

As for his jumping same thing there with Jin only so far it's just his front feet off ground. The problem is keeping your exercise down to a point where you pup won't go full bore which is all they want to do.

[Jimmyd65]

Ninso,

 

Your tip and instructions worked nicely. I worked Layla for about an hour this morning and she responded just as you said. I'm looking forward to instilling this method each day until she finally gets in down completely.

 

thanks and I'll keep you posted

[Jimmyd65]

Ninso,

 

Your tip and instructions worked nicely. I worked Layla for about an hour this morning and she responded just as you said. I'm looking forward to instilling this method each day until she finally gets in down completely.

 

thanks and I'll keep you posted

[Ninso]

Jimmy,

 

Nice! Glad to hear it! Not sure if you're just playing for the fun of it or if you plan on getting involved in disc dog at all. In case you do end up wanting to do some disc dog stuff, keep in mind that drive for the frisbee is of supreme importance and even highly driven dogs like yours and mine can get burned out on too much of a good thing (think: if you had steak and lobster for dinner every night). Frisbee sessions should be kept very short and positive and always ending while the dog still wants more. People are always surprised to learn that "short" truly means probably 5-10 minutes and definitely no more than that. For my dogs, usually less than 5 minutes, since they are basically sprinting full out the whole time. For dogs without so much drive, a "frisbee session" might be just one or two throws! We usually do 2-3 minutes of frisbee practice and then I switch to a ball to tire them out. Of course, if you're just playing for fun, none of the above will matter, but thought I'd throw it out there.

 

DR,

 

Dropping a toy into a hand is a completely different skill than just dropping it requiring a completely different training process. Lok will retreive to hand, but it took me five months to teach him!

[Jimmyd65]

DR,

 

Frisbee for now is just good exercise for Layla. We're still getting through puppy stage and training. We're taking her to a herding instinct evaluation in 3 weeks to see how she responds. I'm sure she'll be fine... She goes after any type of movement. I can't wait to see her reaction when she see's a few ewe's... My wife and I love working with her. She is such a wonderful dog. Don't get me wrong she has her moments but that's to be expected. Can you recommend any disc clubs in Southeastern, Pennsylvania...?

 

Thanks

[Ninso]

Looks like two clubs in PA:

 

Liberty Flyers

 

Appalacian Air Canines

[John F.]

This was very interesting for me to read. I have a border collie that we have had for about a month. He is 6 months old. He loves the frisbee already. I'm glad to know about the not jumping until he is older. I'm going to try the 2 frisbees tomorrow. Thanks!

 

John

[frisbeegirl]

I agree Ninso,

 

When Keeva was younger our frisbee sessions were like 30 minutes sometimes more, she was relentless.

 

Now, I limit her to at the most 10-15 minutes. More than enough.

 

Have you tried Night frisbee? Bought a lighted frisbee by mistake. Keeva Loves it.

[arf2184]

Make sure you generalize that 'drop it' command by also asking her to drop other items (can also 'trade' other items for a Frisbee until she learns it well). It can come in really handy when they pick up smelly things that you don't want brought in the house or when you don't want them to carry a toy outside or when they're teething on your favorite shoes. Its better that they drop the item because then they can't turn it in to a game of tug with the object.

[John F.]

I am definitely struggling with the 'tugging' and not letting go with the frisbee. What happens is, I try a second and frisbee and the crazy dog just runs after the 2nd frisbee with the first frisbee in his mouth! I can get it from him but I don't want it to be a pulling match. I still need help with this one. Today I took some small treats and made the treat visible as he was getting close to me. He dropped the frisbee to get the treat from me. That worked pretty well. My other border collie wanted me to play bad enough that he would eventually drop the toy/frisbee/you-name-it in my lap. I really want to get the 'drop it' command working. Thanks!

[rushdoggie]

I am definitely struggling with the 'tugging' and not letting go with the frisbee. What happens is, I try a second and frisbee and the crazy dog just runs after the 2nd frisbee with the first frisbee in his mouth! I can get it from him but I don't want it to be a pulling match. I still need help with this one. Today I took some small treats and made the treat visible as he was getting close to me. He dropped the frisbee to get the treat from me. That worked pretty well. My other border collie wanted me to play bad enough that he would eventually drop the toy/frisbee/you-name-it in my lap. I really want to get the 'drop it' command working. Thanks!

 

Heres something to consider: when you pull back you encourage him to pull back. I actually taught my puppy how to tug on a soft frisbee before I was smart enough to realize that there was no way that was going to work when he grew up. He is a very strong dog with a big tug drive and that slimy cloth frisbee gets jerked out of my hands very quickly.

 

So, I started in a hole when I taught a drop, and a give. He really wanted to tug, and I couldn't figure out why this dog with huge drive to chase who is really very biddable wouldn't drop the damn thing.

 

Then I realized I was tugging back by holding on. I was inadvertently encouraging this behavior and sending a conflicting message. So now I reach for the frisbee with two very soft fingers, exerting virtually no pressure on it. He lets go immediately.

 

The two things that also helped is if he doesn't let go when I say "give," I let go, turn and walk away for about 10-15 seconds. If you don't let go as soon as I ask, I don't want to throw it for you.

 

In addition, I taught him to run around behind me so that the frisbee gets out a fraction before he starts after it. This increased his catch % and (what was important to me) prevented him from jumping after it or slamming on the brakes to get it (which I don't want him to do to avoid injury). The cue for this is "around." So as soon as I say "give" I then say "around" and hes already on that pattern.

 

It really helped with loose lead walking too, that not puling back. As soon as my hands get "soft" and I don't exert pressure on the leash, he stopped pulling forwards.

[Maralynn]

I am definitely struggling with the 'tugging' and not letting go with the frisbee. What happens is, I try a second and frisbee and the crazy dog just runs after the 2nd frisbee with the first frisbee in his mouth! I can get it from him but I don't want it to be a pulling match. I still need help with this one. Today I took some small treats and made the treat visible as he was getting close to me. He dropped the frisbee to get the treat from me. That worked pretty well. My other border collie wanted me to play bad enough that he would eventually drop the toy/frisbee/you-name-it in my lap. I really want to get the 'drop it' command working. Thanks!

 

Ah, yes. Toy hoarders... I have one and she can get up to 3 in her mouth at once!

 

Have you taught a drop it command apart from the frisbee? Is he quite reliable with that?

 

If not I would start with that.

 

Otherwise I second everything Rushdoggie said.

[terrecar]

I agree with Ninso's advice, only I use "give" when I am within reach and "drop it" at a distance. If my dog goes after it after she drops it (Hannah got me on a technicality), then "leave it" also works. Of course, all of those commands take training (one at a time). So the important thing, initially, is to have something even more appealing to give her while training to give or drop or leave it--whichever you wish to start with--then phase out from there. During phase out, keep in mind that, once a behavior is set, intermittent reinforcement is a stronger motivator than continual. In other words, start taking the frisbee when she gives it up without giving her something in return, say every second or third time, once she is consistently giving it up with reinforcement. Eventually you can phase out the replacement altogether.

 

Also, Rushdoggie's advice is good. I know this because (duh) I learned it from experience, i.e. if I pulled back, that would act as a motivator to HOLD ONTO FRISBEE FOR DEAR LIFE, because who doesn't love a good game of tug!

 

ETA: I've never had a dog that would take more than one toy at a time! That is funny (though understandably frustrating if you're trying to train).

[John F.]

Rushdoggie, you said:

 

"Then I realized I was tugging back by holding on. I was inadvertently encouraging this behavior and sending a conflicting message. So now I reach for the frisbee with two very soft fingers, exerting virtually no pressure on it. He lets go immediately. .......

 

It really helped with loose lead walking too, that not puling back. As soon as my hands get "soft" and I don't exert pressure on the leash, he stopped pulling forwards. "

 

I don't understand what you mean. So when he comes up and I reach for it, just let him keep it? If I do that, he just keeps it. He walks to another area, lays down, and starts chewing on it. I have tried just turning away but he is content to not have me throw the ball or frisbee if I don't get it.

 

I don't understand the loose lead comment either, which I am also working on. If your hands go soft wne you have the lead, the lead would go out of your hand and the dog would be down the street. Sorry for my not getting it. I understand the concept of not struggling with him, just not sure how to make it happen. And no, I have not perfected the 'leave it' command either. As far as a toy in the house, or food, etc, i can take it from him without trouble. So he is good that way.

[John F.]

The something more appealing is the tidbit of food. That does work as long as I don't show it to him too quickly. If he sees it too quickly he just drops the frisbee as soon as he sees me holding food and runs back the rest of the way. Good advice about doing it every so often once it starts working.

 

I agree with Ninso's advice, only I use "give" when I am within reach and "drop it" at a distance. If my dog goes after it after she drops it (Hannah got me on a technicality), then "leave it" also works. Of course, all of those commands take training (one at a time). So the important thing, initially, is to have something even more appealing to give her while training to give or drop or leave it--whichever you wish to start with--then phase out from there. During phase out, keep in mind that, once a behavior is set, intermittent reinforcement is a stronger motivator than continual. In other words, start taking the frisbee when she gives it up without giving her something in return, say every second or third time, once she is consistently giving it up with reinforcement. Eventually you can phase out the replacement altogether.

 

Also, Rushdoggie's advice is good. I know this because (duh) I learned it from experience, i.e. if I pulled back, that would act as a motivator to HOLD ONTO FRISBEE FOR DEAR LIFE, because who doesn't love a good game of tug!

 

ETA: I've never had a dog that would take more than one toy at a time! That is funny (though understandably frustrating if you're trying to train).

[rushdoggie]

Rushdoggie, you said:

 

"Then I realized I was tugging back by holding on. I was inadvertently encouraging this behavior and sending a conflicting message. So now I reach for the frisbee with two very soft fingers, exerting virtually no pressure on it. He lets go immediately. .......

 

It really helped with loose lead walking too, that not puling back. As soon as my hands get "soft" and I don't exert pressure on the leash, he stopped pulling forwards. "

 

I don't understand what you mean. So when he comes up and I reach for it, just let him keep it?

 

What I mean when I reach for it I don't grab the frisbee and pull back. I don't give him the non-verbal cue to pull back. I gently take it and ask for it, and if he yanks it out of my fingers then I don't yank back.

 

Partly its because pulling against your dog engages an oppositional reflex, and partly in my case its because I taught him to tug on a frisbee and by yanking back I am communicating that I want to tug.

 

If I do that, he just keeps it. He walks to another area, lays down, and starts chewing on it. I have tried just turning away but he is content to not have me throw the ball or frisbee if I don't get it.

 

Do you walk away completely? What would happen if you walked away and started playing with a ball yourself?

 

I don't understand the loose lead comment either, which I am also working on. If your hands go soft when you have the lead, the lead would go out of your hand and the dog would be down the street. Sorry for my not getting it.

 

If you have never done this, then start in the yard. Pretend your leash is a thread that would break if he pulled hard or you pulled hard. Talk to him and adjust your body as you move to prevent the leash going taut. What I had done is teach my dog that a taut leash means we are going, so he learned to ignore light pressure. By not letting him get that tight pressure and talking to him, moving with him, I taught him I prefer the leash be looser.

 

As we moved on I found there were times when (especially as I am trying to get into a groove and walk at a speed for exercise) I was starting to pull back. I consciously stop pulling and release tension in my arms, and suddenly I notice he is listening to my leash and theres not tension in my lead.

 

I know it sounds weird, and it doesn't translate well. But it really does work. When I say "soft hands" I am thinking of a horse riders hands that transmit many cues down a rein without yanking on the rein. Play around with it, you will see what I mean.

 

And no, I have not perfected the 'leave it' command either. As far as a toy in the house, or food, etc, i can take it from him without trouble. So he is good that way.

 

So can you say that he really understands what you mean when you ask him to release the toy in all circumstances? I would also practice the return of the toy in the house, outside of fetch games. What word do you use? Do you use that word for other things? If he had something other than the ball/frisbee in his mouth (say a alternate toy or a plastic cup) and you said that word with your hand out, would he willingly release that item? Are you consistent with what your body language says?