skyroscoe Posted March 9, 2007 Report Share Posted March 9, 2007 I have 3 dogs.. 2 BC's one older who is a former frisbee champ, a rescued mix and a 10 month old tri- colored male with beautiful markings and a sweet personality to match. The older BC comes from pedigree who were from back to back International Sheepdog Champoins in the 1980's. I had him fixed, cause I thought it was the right thing to do cause he competed in Frisbee competitions. Over the years I had so many inquires from BC owners about possibly studding him out...Now that I have this awesome pup, which I did not have fixed, I would like to see him father a litter.. I am not in it for money, I had Goldens mated years ago, and found that I wanted to keep all the pups and wound up keeping a pair. So getting a little female pup, which would make 4 dogs in the family would be too much to love and give attention to. How and where can I advertise this pup for stud. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RaisingRiver Posted March 9, 2007 Report Share Posted March 9, 2007 And so it begins... (me sits back and watches). To answer your question, you should only stud your dog is he's a proven sheepdog. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Little Bo Boop Posted March 9, 2007 Report Share Posted March 9, 2007 Rut Row! Everybody take cover! Incoming! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pipedream Farm Posted March 9, 2007 Report Share Posted March 9, 2007 Please read.... Welcome to the BC Boards -- READ THIS FIRST Okay folks, be kind, be patient, be firm. Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smileyzookie Posted March 9, 2007 Report Share Posted March 9, 2007 Rut Row! Everybody take cover! Incoming! LOL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrSnappy Posted March 9, 2007 Report Share Posted March 9, 2007 Ugh. Why do you want to stud him out - because people ask you to? If they asked you if they could kick you in the cojones every time you say the word "pickles" would you oblige them in that as well? Unless your dog is a proven working stockdog and you are someone who knows how to evaluate that carefully, you're doing nobody any favours by breeding your dog. There are a kajillion border collies in rescue that need homes and you want to create more. I cannot fathom this. As a stud owner, whether those pups are born in your house or not, you are still responsible for putting pups on this earth and the results. Not everyone agrees with my rather strict stance on breeder responsibility, but I have no patience for "stud owners" who are 'just' making their dogs available. And finally, in my opinion, if you have to ask where you can advertise your dog for stud, he is not worthy of being studded. If he was, you would know the right people and they would already be inquiring. Frisbee is not an inherited trait, btw, so ask yourself what you are contributing to the border collie populace by studding out your frisbee dog. Probably nothing outstanding, so why bother? Just neuter him. That's my advice and I'm standing behind it. the 17 or so dogs I have in rescue right now are standing behind it as well. RDM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
books Posted March 9, 2007 Report Share Posted March 9, 2007 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carson Crazies Posted March 9, 2007 Report Share Posted March 9, 2007 Hi skyroscoe, and welcome. I hope you will read the thread that Mark directed you to! I really don't know where one would advertise a dog "at stud" like you're talking about. My strong belief is that Border Collies should only be bred based on livestock working ability. That's not to say that border collies can't be wonderful pets, but I think the decision to bring life into the world is a very heavy one, and should be done responsibly and for the right reasons. I would urge you to please consider this, and think about having your pet neutered unless he is an outstanding specimin of a working sheepdog (and if he is an excellent stockdog, and that doesn't appear to be the case, then I would suggest finding a mentor in the sheepdog world). There are *so* many unwanted border collies in shelters and rescues that I think it's not only irresponsible to breed for anything other than working ability, but I think it's even more irresponsible to breed just because one can. Please consider the implications of what you're thinking about. There are always dogs available to fill a void in one's heart. The dog has missed out on nothing by not being bred, IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bcluver4life Posted March 9, 2007 Report Share Posted March 9, 2007 Like what most of the other have said, I won't stud out your dog unless he is proven. Either way, you have a beautiful boy and you're welcome to the boards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skyroscoe Posted March 9, 2007 Author Report Share Posted March 9, 2007 I am aware that there are many dogs that need good homes and I have done my share in the past providing a great home for some of them. He comes from a herding background, however I am just a BC lover and frisbee disc golfer who loves the breed and I dont see anything wrong by having his "job" be frisbee...thats his work ! I also have been to all the BC rescues in my area and did not find a suitable addition for my family there. I discovered this pup by accident and bought him cause I did not want him going to an unfit environment with owners not familiar with the breed. I respect all the opinions here. He is 10 months old and will not be fixed. That decision is behind me! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrSnappy Posted March 9, 2007 Report Share Posted March 9, 2007 Frisbee is a game, not a job. You can't breed for frisbee skills. There is nothing wrong with playing frisbee, but there are so many things wrong with breeding a dog because he is good at frisbee! The right dog might not be in rescue at the time you're looking, but if you're patient - or look in another rescue! - there will liekly be a dog for you. But that is neither here nor there - the point is, if you stud out your frisbee dog, you're part of the problem not the solution. Only you know which part of the equation you want to be. RDM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RaisingRiver Posted March 9, 2007 Report Share Posted March 9, 2007 Your dog could be from a herding background and he doesn't have to be a sheepdog. But he may not be a very good sheepdog even if his family is and you won't know that unless you work him. What makes a Border Collie everything it is, is diluted if people breed non-working BCs. All the qualities you love about your pup (inc what makes him good at frisbee) will be diluted if you don't breed a proven dog. You begin creating something else. If you care about the breed, you'll only breed proven working sheepdogs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PSmitty Posted March 9, 2007 Report Share Posted March 9, 2007 Your dog may be great, but you don't have any valid reasons for wanting to breed him. Enjoy him for what he is! Trust me, he won't care if he never sires a litter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smileyzookie Posted March 9, 2007 Report Share Posted March 9, 2007 I am aware that there are many dogs that need good homes and I have done my share in the past providing a great home for some of them. He comes from a herding background, however I am just a BC lover and frisbee disc golfer who loves the breed and I dont see anything wrong by having his "job" be frisbee...thats his work ! I also have been to all the BC rescues in my area and did not find a suitable addition for my family there. I discovered this pup by accident and bought him cause I did not want him going to an unfit environment with owners not familiar with the breed. I respect all the opinions here. He is 10 months old and will not be fixed. That decision is behind me! You arent going to get the support here you're looking for. BC's should be bred for their working ability not their "gaming" ability PERIOD. There is nothing wrong with frisbee, and Im sure he's a great frisbee dog and pet. However as MrSnappy said, you're part of the problem if you decide to go through breeding this dog. It doesnt matter if the shelter you went to had a BC or not. Keep looking, guaranteed it will. Check rescues, there are TONS of unwanted BC's right now, why would your pups be any different? They wouldnt. Not only would you be doing a dis-service to the breed, but you'd be adding more lives into an already over populated nonworking BC world. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carson Crazies Posted March 9, 2007 Report Share Posted March 9, 2007 Shoot, I'll up the ante. If you truly think you can't find the right dog for you in rescue, why not go support a reputable and responsible breeder of working border collies? Then you can say you've done the right thing in not just one, but TWO ways - you've neutered an unsuitable breeding animal, *and* you've supported a responsible breeding. Sounds rather like a win-win situation to me. Skyroscoe, I'm sure your dog is a fantastic dog. Obviously you care for him a lot, and I respect that. I don't, however, have much respect for irresponsible breeding, and urge you to educate yourself further! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liz P Posted March 9, 2007 Report Share Posted March 9, 2007 Taking a deep breath and trying to be as polite as possible... If you have to ask where to advertise your dog you don't know enough to be breeding. Period. Do you know how normal stud owners "advertise"? People see the dog working and at trials and realize he could really contribute to the breed. Then they show the stud owner their bitch working sheep to prove that she can also contribute something to the breed. Arrangements are made, puppies are born who will continue the working tradition that created the breed. If you know so little that you think advertising a ten MONTH old pup as a stud is a good idea you should not be breeding. It takes years to prove a dog worthy of breeding. It also takes years for health problems to show up and to get all the health screening done. Frisbee is NOT work, it is a game. So what if your dog takes it seriously? Soccer moms and hockey dads foam at the mouth and attack each other over a children's GAME. It is your choice to keep your dog intact. Work him on sheep, prove he is worthy of breeding and people will come to you with their females. Males can still reproduce when they are 10, 12, even 14 years old. There is no rush. You have years and years to educate yourself about the breed. Go to some sheepdog trials and see what real BCs are all about. Take some herding lessons. Very few people can resist the herding bug, it is highly infectious. ETA: Saying that the dog you want is not in rescue is not an excuse. People who buy puppies from working litters wait many years for the right pup to come along. I waited 5 years for a pup out of a particular bitch. I have been on the waiting list for 2 years for a pup out of another bitch and she won't be bred until 2008 at the earliest, probably not until 2009 or 2010. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maralynn Posted March 9, 2007 Report Share Posted March 9, 2007 Nothing wrong with focusing on frisbee with your dog. You'll probably both have a blast. But it's wrong to breed your frisbee dog no matter what his pedigree looks like if he hasn't proven he's an excellant stock working dog. I have a very nice 2 y/o male from some good herding lines who seems to be a natural at sheep work. He is also friendly, has a great temperment, eager to learn and loves to play. He's getting neutered later this month as I've decided to train him primarily for search and resuce and will never know his true herding potential. Enjoy your dog, keep him intact if you wish, but don't breed him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebecca, Irena Farm Posted March 9, 2007 Report Share Posted March 9, 2007 Frisbee is great. It is NOT a reason to breed a Border collie. That would be like breeding a Great Dane because he's, well, big. The things that make your dog a great frisbee dog are kind of the minimum of what makes good Border Collies. Not even that. Just a teeny, tiny piece. I'll answer you question directly. Here's how you stud out your dog. You train him to run in USBCHA Nursery, or Open, and start running him in trials. This will take about two to three years, if you are prodigiously talented at picking up the nitty gritty of sheepdog training, yourself. No fair having him professionall trained - you have to be personally involved so you are qualified to evaluate his potential with your own eyes and similiarly evaluate potential mates (see below). People will then approach you about using your dog to complement their bitches' strengths and weaknesses. You use your hard-won knowlege of your dog's weaknesses to ensure that the pups that result, will be sound in body and mind, and will be useful dogs that carry on the abilities of the Border Collie to the next generation. Anything less is an affront to the breed you say you favor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
painted_ponies Posted March 9, 2007 Report Share Posted March 9, 2007 I have a nice tri-colored bitch puppy who looks a lot like yours. See? If she looks a little bedraggled in that picture, it because it was taken at a kill shelter, from which I pulled Faith along with five other purebred BC that no one wanted. It would have been six, but one pup died from parvo before I could get him out. They were all great dogs and some could fetch and some could play frisbee but no one wanted any of them. Faith's sweet and smart and is learning her basic obedience commands now, and I'm hoping one day she might make a sheepdog when she's older. But we came real close to never finding out, because by the time I got her pulled she was almost dead from parasites and I spent a month nursing her back to health. And this was at a shelter where the board members worked nights and weekends for no pay in addition to the paid staff working days. Conditions were so bad there because there were just so many animals they couldn't have kept up with twice as many workers and three times the money. Don't breed your dog. When people ask you about it, urge them to adopt a rescue instead. Please. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skyroscoe Posted March 9, 2007 Author Report Share Posted March 9, 2007 Thank you all for your candid responses....I highly doubt he will ever breed, I came here to get some feedback, and I do realize the responsibility of breeding, have seen working dogs perform, in sheepdog competitions, agility and frisbee. Maybe I am naive, but I see very happy content well loved BC's in all these capacities. I will assume that all of the responders believe these other activities are great for BC's, and I believe their intelligence, intensity and physical prowess should be utilized in all capacities they are capable of. I do understand the opinions stated above, and if BC's were not just an incredible pet, I would not have seeked to own the 2 that I have. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carson Crazies Posted March 9, 2007 Report Share Posted March 9, 2007 Thank you all for your candid responses....I highly doubt he will ever breed, I came here to get some feedback, and I do realize the responsibility of breeding, have seen working dogs perform, in sheepdog competitions, agility and frisbee. Maybe I am naive, but I see very happy content well loved BC's in all these capacities. I will assume that all of the responders believe these other activities are great for BC's, and I believe their intelligence, intensity and physical prowess should be utilized in all capacities they are capable of. I do understand the opinions stated above, and if BC's were not just an incredible pet, I would not have seeked to own the 2 that I have. We're glad you did come here for feedback! You're absolutely right - we see border collies doing all sorts of activities and enjoying them thoroughly! I personally believe that different activities are a good thing for dogs that don't get to stock. I think the distinction lies in the purpose behind the breeding - ie breeding for livestock ability only. In other words, we (board as a whole, and people who care about the border collie's future) believe that the standard for breeding a border collie is a livestock working standard... and that other activities are worthwhile persuits but not standards by which a border collie should be bred. Stick around for a while! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KrisK Posted March 9, 2007 Report Share Posted March 9, 2007 Thank you all for your candid responses....I highly doubt he will ever breed, I came here to get some feedback, and I do realize the responsibility of breeding, have seen working dogs perform, in sheepdog competitions, agility and frisbee. Maybe I am naive, but I see very happy content well loved BC's in all these capacities. I will assume that all of the responders believe these other activities are great for BC's, and I believe their intelligence, intensity and physical prowess should be utilized in all capacities they are capable of. I do understand the opinions stated above, and if BC's were not just an incredible pet, I would not have seeked to own the 2 that I have. As far as I can tell, not one single person who has responded said that BC's can't be happy or content doing frisbee, agility, tracking, or the myriad of other dogsports out there. Quite frankly, both my BC's have only had a very limited experience with sheep and both are just fine. However, what the posters have been saying is DO NOT BREED unless the dog has PROVEN WORKING ABILITY. Rebecca answered your question in her usual excellent manner. And what Painted Ponies didn't say in her post was how many dogs are killed in shelters across N. America because there is no room and yet people continue to BREED. Enjoy your little fellow - he looks like a great pup and whenever you get the urge to 'breed' him - check out the hundreds (if not thousands) of BC's already in rescue or worse yet, sitting on death row. Then give your fellow a hug and be thankful he's NOT contributing to the problem. ETA (oops...forgot the NOT part) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted March 9, 2007 Report Share Posted March 9, 2007 I will assume that all of the responders believe these other activities are great for BC's, and I believe their intelligence, intensity and physical prowess should be utilized in all capacities they are capable of. I do understand the opinions stated above, and if BC's were not just an incredible pet, I would not have seeked to own the 2 that I have. You would be assuming correctly! No one has anything against border collies being *used* in other activities. Clearly not everyone has livestock or even wants to work a dog on stock. Just remember that the "intelligence, intensity, and physical prowess" that draw you to the breed are there as a direct result of purpose-driven breeding--that is, breeding for superior working ability, with work being defined as stockwork and not the result of just breeding any two nice dogs together. Thank you for keeping an open mind on the breeding question and understanding our point of view. J. P.S. If you're curious about the vast numbers of border collies in rescue, just go to Petfinder and type in border collie under search criteria and see what comes up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
haleigh Posted March 9, 2007 Report Share Posted March 9, 2007 In skyroscoe's defence, everyone starts off somewhere. The breeder where you got your pup asked these same questions before. I think there is nothing wrong with breeding, as long as it is done responsibly. Heres my view on it: Dog must be registered as an OFA or PennHip dog Bitch must be registered with OFA or PennHip Dog (bitch can be preferential on this) SHOULD be CERF'd. There is too much a risk with progressive eye atrophy (PRA) and collie eye anomaly (CEA) Dog and bitch must be ABCA, ABCIA, or AKC registered (did I get the second one right?). I prefer the parent clubs, but AKC is a must for dogs who may have a future in tracking and competitve obedience Dog AND AND AND AND btich MUST be tested for brucellosis Here's a checklist 1. you alresdy have homes already for all pups when born 2. you have found a dog that meets all the points in the section above relating to the requirements of the bitch 3. you are prepared to offer a lifetime guarantee (or at least two years) for the health of the pups 4. if, during the lifetime of the pups, any need to be returned for whatever reason, you take that pup (now adult dog) back and find a home for him/her. 5. all non-working quality pups are sold with a spay/neuter agreement 6. all prospective buyers have been fully screened by you 7. you are going to offer support and advice to your puppy buyers for the life of the pup 8. you have the money to cover a stud fee, possible c-section and complications, vaccinations, and still get no income from the sale of any pups. 9. have you consented with the breeder of your bitch/dog and sought their advice? If you seriously want to breed, get some books. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
collies4me Posted March 9, 2007 Report Share Posted March 9, 2007 [*]...., but AKC is a must for dogs who may have a future in tracking and competitve obedience Could you elaborate on this idea? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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