gypsy84 Posted January 29, 2008 Report Share Posted January 29, 2008 I was surfing the internet, and ame across this article. I had never heard about the "Abandonment Exercise" before, and was wondering if it is actually a legitimate exercise used by trainers or not. I always thought that a dog's aloofness was predetermined, and I'm not sure whether or not it can be "trained". Anyone with more experience care to comment? Here is the link to the article (also quoted below) http://www.caradobe.com/relationship.pdf and here is the link to the parent site that this is from http://www.caradobe.com/ The day that I received my new Cara Doberman puppy I knew that I was in love. What a precious package of joy, however, she was not near as enamored with me as I was with her. Within several days I noticed how aloof she appeared at times. I seemed to desire her attention and affection much more than she cared about mine. I had never seen this behavior in such a young puppy. She reminded me of a young teenager that thought she was ready to move out and get her own apartment. I contacted Ray Carlisle and asked his advice. The solution he offered was very simple, made perfect sense and really worked. For lack of a better term, I will call it the abandonment exercise. This exercise should be done in a totally fenced in area such as a large ballfield or tennis court. It should not be done in an area the dog is familiar with such as your backyard. Take the puppy to the area by yourself; do not take any other dogs or people along for the ride. Park your car so that is cannot be seen from the area you will be taking the puppy to but that you can keep an eye on the puppy, perhaps behind some bushes or up a hill. Make sure all gates are closed and walk the puppy inside the enclosed area, preferably with the puppy off leash. Sit down in the grass and totally ignore the puppy. If the puppy wanders away, immediately get up and run out the closest gate, shut it behind you and quickly disappear. Do not stop even if the puppy attempts to follow, just shut the gate and quietly make your way back to your car. It is important the puppy does not see you go to the car. If the puppy will not wander away while you are sitting in the grass, then after ten minutes or so, throw several small treats out away from you. Once the puppy becomes engrossed in the food, quickly depart. It is important that you do not return back to the enclosure until after your puppy is sure he has been abandoned. This will take different periods of time depending on the individual dog. The puppy MUST BE ABSOLUTELY FRANTIC. This may be exhibited by barking, screaming, racing the fence line, attempting to climb the fence or running in circles. Do not return to the puppy in less than fifteen minutes regardless of his behavior. It may take as long as thirty to forty-five minutes if the puppy is very independent. If possible, return via a different gate than you departed and circle behind the puppy so that it does not see you. Walk back normally and remain calm. When the puppy sees you, it should literally go insane with unrestrained and total joy. It may attempt to grab clothing, jump all over you or squeal with delight. Calmly praise; do not act overly exuberant. Remember you are establishing that the dog will always need you and that you do not need him. After several minutes of calm praising, turn and walk away without saying anything. It is important you remain silent. The puppy should readily follow and be worried that you may again be leaving. Silently have the puppy follow you to your car. In the rare circumstance that you returned to the confined puppy and it does not run to you with unrestrained and grateful joy, then you must immediately turn and walk away as fast as possible, again closing the gate behind you. You must leave the puppy for at least one hour or until he is extremely agitated and worried. This exercise should be repeated whenever aloofness rears its ugly head. It is even more successful if done in a variety of locations. I used it five times and it totally changed the relationship between the dog and myself. It did not create separation anxiety because my dog had already been taught to remain calm in a kennel crate. It did create a dog that had a clear picture that I was the benevolent leader and she was dependent on me for survival. It also helped to teach my dog to come when called since she now desired to be with me. I will always be grateful to Ray Carlisle for helping me to raise a better dog. Initially he furnished me with a wonderfully bred animal then he helped give me the tools to raise it properly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aquarius89 Posted January 29, 2008 Report Share Posted January 29, 2008 I'd rather not have my dogs constantly worrying that I was going to leave them... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marilyn T Posted January 29, 2008 Report Share Posted January 29, 2008 Sounds like a great way to train seperation anxiety into a sensitive dog. I wouldn't do it. Not to a border collie. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shetlander Posted January 29, 2008 Report Share Posted January 29, 2008 It did create a dog that had a clear picture that I was the benevolent leader and she was dependent on me for survival. Wow, that must be a different definition of benevolent than I have, but I guess the puppy has no idea that she was deliberately made to become "absolutely frantic" or "extremely agitated and worried" by the person on which she is "dependent for survival." I know this a puppy we're talking about, not a child, but I wouldn't have the stomach for inflicting this kind of emotional trauma. Geez. What about tethering the puppy to her side or maybe giving it more than several days to bond with this benevolent leader? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
airbear Posted January 29, 2008 Report Share Posted January 29, 2008 I think it sounds kinda mean. There are better ways to ensure that your dog "run(s) to you with unrestrained and grateful joy". Wow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaggieDog Posted January 29, 2008 Report Share Posted January 29, 2008 Ok looks like a crazy twist on the "hide n seek" thing I do when proofing off leash recall: hiding behind a bush when the dog isn't looking and waiting for them to find me when they realize I disappeared. I don't do it where the dog can't actually get to me and I don't do it just for aloofness. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shetlander Posted January 29, 2008 Report Share Posted January 29, 2008 Ok looks like a crazy twist on the "hide n seek" thing I do when proofing off leash recall For really crazy twist to a hide and seek game, how about her suggestion, "If the puppy will not wander away while you are sitting in the grass, then after ten minutes or so, throw several small treats out away from you. Once the puppy becomes engrossed in the food, quickly depart." So the poor pup finally is paying attention to her and is rewarded for it by being tricked into paying attention elsewhere so it can then experience being abandoned? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gypsy84 Posted January 29, 2008 Author Report Share Posted January 29, 2008 Just to clarify - I wasn't actually considering trying this "technique"! I was just browsing and reading this article sounded pretty harsh to me and wanted a second opinion. Ok looks like a crazy twist on the "hide n seek" thing I do when proofing off leash recall: hiding behind a bush when the dog isn't looking and waiting for them to find me when they realize I disappeared. I don't do it where the dog can't actually get to me and I don't do it just for aloofness. This is also a game Gypsy and I play. There is a big park we go to full of winding trails and if she gets a bit too far up ahead, I'll either turn around and run the opposite direction or else sidestep off the path, at which point she turns around and bolts back in my direction to find me. All the time with a big doggy smile on her face.. and she certainly isn't "agitated or worried" I feel sorry for the dogs that are going to suffer because of this article. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OurBoys Posted January 29, 2008 Report Share Posted January 29, 2008 Sounds like a great way to train seperation anxiety into a sensitive dog. I wouldn't do it. Not to a border collie. Ditto! I understand what you're saying, Lisa. It's one thing to train your dog to pay attention to you but that 'trainer's' so called technique is downright cruel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogsofmenace Posted January 29, 2008 Report Share Posted January 29, 2008 Sounds like a great way to train seperation anxiety into a sensitive dog. I wouldn't do it. Not to a border collie. Exactly. Essentially you are rewarding the dog for freaking out when you leave by coming back immediately. Besides, who wants a dog that is so attached to you it can't function when you're not there? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mbc1963 Posted January 29, 2008 Report Share Posted January 29, 2008 Yeesh... I was getting nervous just reading that description. I imagine that if you did that to a small child, he or she would also learn to always cling to their parents, in case the parents should disappear. Mean! I once parked at a pull-off to a state park, and got out of the car with my dog off leash. Then I realized I was blocking a fire lane access, so had to move my car. The dog was engrossed in smelling, and wouldn't come to me, so I just hopped in to back about 10 feet away from where I was... and my poor dog got absolutely frantic, trying to chase the car! I opened the front door, and he hopped right over my lap into the passenger seat, he was so scared that I was going to leave without him. I felt horrible! I do not know how people can drive somewhere and dump a dog out of their car. It's simply horrific for them. Mary Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bo Peep Posted January 30, 2008 Report Share Posted January 30, 2008 this just sounds plain stupid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kate40541 Posted January 31, 2008 Report Share Posted January 31, 2008 I wouldn't even think of doing it either, I'd much rather accept that this is the particular dog's personality and let it go at that. My Kate is rather stand-offish and aloof but that's just her; the Abandonment Exercise is taking aloofness personally then punishing it. It's along the same lines as the Hostage exercise some people use. Isn't it amazing what people will come up with?? Suzanne Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gypsy84 Posted February 1, 2008 Author Report Share Posted February 1, 2008 It's along the same lines as the Hostage exercise some people use. What's that one? I just tried googling it but nothign relevant to dog training came up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kate40541 Posted February 1, 2008 Report Share Posted February 1, 2008 It's "Of Hostages and Relationships" by Suzanne Clothier, one of the articles on her website: http://www.flyingdogpress.com/hostage.html It was (may still be) a "tool" at a training facility I went to for agility lessons but at the time I didn't know what it was just that it made me sick to my stomach to be told I needed to do it to my dog. It's using isolation to improve a dog's willingness to work with you - aka the Stockholm Syndrome. I'd paid for a series of lessons with this instructor but 1/2 way through she decided that I needed to use this "technique" and I just couldn't do it - Kate was my partner, my team mate. Yes, she can be a smart alec and loves to tell me she's smarter, a better athlete, and better looking than I am but I didn't see that as a reason to do that to her. I forfeited the rest of my lessons and later was given a copy of this article by someone else and I found out that, at least for me, I was right to not do this. If this was "the only way to achieve success" then success wasn't that important to me. I have the copy still but it is a folder all by itself and I never have read it again after that first time. There are people who use this and feel it has achieved what they want and if one of them is reading this I apologize if I've offended but it is not for me and never will be nor for anyone with whom I train. On a rescue group list I belong to there was a discussion of how to help a dog get over being car sick, one person said that many years ago her vet told her to take her dog (a German Shepherd) to an empty road, put the dog out and drive off. Don't stop til the dog's tongue is hanging out to it's knees, then stop and let the dog get in the car. This was claimed to have cured the car sickness. Why? Because the dog learned the car is the place to be. I protested that this is cruel not a training device as it was presented to be especially since this was a list for people who have rescue dogs who have already been abandoned at least once. Suzanne Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beach BCs Posted February 1, 2008 Report Share Posted February 1, 2008 OMG!! How horrifying! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shetlander Posted February 1, 2008 Report Share Posted February 1, 2008 On a rescue group list I belong to there was a discussion of how to help a dog get over being car sick, one person said that many years ago her vet told her to take her dog (a German Shepherd) to an empty road, put the dog out and drive off. Don't stop til the dog's tongue is hanging out to it's knees, then stop and let the dog get in the car. This was claimed to have cured the car sickness. Why? Because the dog learned the car is the place to be. I protested that this is cruel not a training device as it was presented to be especially since this was a list for people who have rescue dogs who have already been abandoned at least once. Geeze. What people think of to do to their dogs. Sadism in the name of training. My Sheltie has had lifelong problems with carsickness. I remember years ago we were at an agility show at the end of the day. Everyone and everything she knew was being packed up into the van. The park was emptying out. She is a soft and shy little dog. Yet, when I turned to her and told her to get in, she was like "No. That's alright. I'll just stay here by myself. I'll send you a card when I find work." She would have waved at me if I drove off without her. Obviously, I put her in the car for the long ride home. A few times in her nine years with me, she has really wanted to get in the car, e.g., leaving the vet's or not wanting to be left at home during a very bad thunderstorm. In those cases the car truly was the place she wanted to be... for that particular moment. But it didn't change the fact that she is still very prone to car sickness and barring huge scary storms or strange people poking at her, she still won't get into a car unless I tell her she has no choice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
haleigh Posted February 1, 2008 Report Share Posted February 1, 2008 When Joy was a baby, and she wasn't looking, i'd sneak away and make her come find me. She would get a little worried, and try to find me. After that she got heavy reinforcement. This was only to make sure she payed attention to me whereabouts though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shetlander Posted February 1, 2008 Report Share Posted February 1, 2008 When Joy was a baby, and she wasn't looking, i'd sneak away and make her come find me. She would get a little worried, and try to find me. After that she got heavy reinforcement. This was only to make sure she payed attention to me whereabouts though. I think many of us have walked away from a pup or dog who ignored us (in a safe setting) just as many of us have played hide and seek games with our dog. I doubt too many of us have ever deliberately set out to cause a puppy to become "frantic" for a minimum of 15 minutes because he doesn't find us endlessly fascinating. Nor are many of us likely to make a dog both panic and run to exhaustion because he has the misfortune to be car sick, not to mention the misfortune to be at the tender mercy of someone who thinks that's a swell idea. If any vet had made that suggestion to me for my Sheltie, that would be our last conversation on any animal care topic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kate40541 Posted February 1, 2008 Report Share Posted February 1, 2008 What amazes and saddens me is the people who will give this cruel information out as training advice. Suzanne Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dalesred Posted February 2, 2008 Report Share Posted February 2, 2008 Along with the OP and others, I can see no merit in this whatsoever. It's not just horribly cruel, but also likely to re-enforce nervous behaviour. It's a disturbing insight into the psychological make up of any person who is prepared to carry this through. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CleverColliesDeb. Posted February 2, 2008 Report Share Posted February 2, 2008 Along with the OP and others, I can see no merit in this whatsoever. It's not just horribly cruel, but also likely to re-enforce nervous behaviour. It's a disturbing insight into the psychological make up of any person who is prepared to carry this through. I agree, what a way to treat an animal with millennia of close, human companionship and interaction in it`s genes!....the close physical and psychological-bond and desire always to be 'with us'; that we as owners so cherish in our canine companions should not be 'bullied' and forced in such a unnatural manner. It is 'reward' for our giving leadership, loyalty, respect and care to them; it`s our 'privilege' not a 'right' to take. I hope the 'trainer' that came up with this "Abandonment Technique" nonsense is given short shrift by those more enlightened (and humane) within the dog-training community. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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