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Early Takeoff Syndrome?


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In sheepdog training and trialing, deficiencies in depth perception are an enormous handicap to a handler. It's a handicap I have not been able to mitigate, let alone overcome, despite considerable research, effort and motivation. I am very interested in why you think ways to overcome a depth perception issue in dogs could be developed, once it was recognized as such.

 

Because I believe that many things are possible that we do not yet know are possible.

 

Do you think Agility is the only activity in which a dog person might have the experience of having an investment of time, money, training, and emotional capital derailed by an issue that s/he has no control over? Believe me, you don't have to do Agility to have met with this experience, and to understand its impact and implications.

 

No, I don't think that.

 

But I do find that those who are not involved with Agility directly often do not understand why those who run dogs and run into issues later in the dog's career that make it challenging to continue don't just quit and go do something else.

 

What Pearse says makes perfect sense to me, whereas "No, it can't be rally, it can't be freestyle, it can't be X or Y or Z -- it MUST be Agility" makes no sense to me at all.

 

Because Agility is different from those other sports. They are simply not the same. If the chemistry is there for a team in Agility it may well never be there with anything else.

 

It is the case that handlers do retire Agility dogs and go into another sport later in life due to the dog's preference, handler preference, or an injury, or a mental or behavioral issue that makes participation in Agility impossible. Many of those handlers would tell you that it simply isn't the same, and often there is a sense that something is missing. That's not universal, of course, but it happens.

 

I'm in this boat right now with my own dog. She is 11 years old and is limping on her left front shoulder. Why not just quit? Why spend the time doing physical therapy and massage with her to get back to Agility? Why spend money on meds and laser treatments? Why not just go do Freestyle, which is my favorite sport, anyway?

 

Because that is not the sport that she and I have spent years learning and playing together. It is not the sport that she and I love to do together.

 

So, I am going to put everything I can into getting her back to where she can play. If it turns out she's done, we will go do something else. And we will enjoy it. But there will always be something missing.

 

It's not that Agility is the only thing, but for some teams, there is just no substitute.

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And as someone who as trained more than a few dogs for stockwork I do get the heartbreak that goes with investing time, money, and emotion into an animal only to have it all go to hell when the pressure is really on.

 

That's one thing about ETS, though. It's not just happening while the pressure is on. If it only happened in trials, or when a MACH is on the line, that would be very different from what is actually being observed.

 

For these dogs it happens during regular and normal training, as well as in competitive settings.

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Because Agility is different from those other sports.

 

Many of those handlers would tell you that it simply isn't the same, and often there is a sense that something is missing. That's not universal, of course, but it happens.

 

I'm in this boat right now with my own dog. She is 11 years old and is limping on her left front shoulder.

 

Because that is not the sport that she and I have spent years learning and playing together. It is not the sport that she and I love to do together.

 

So, I am going to put everything I can into getting her back to where she can play. If it turns out she's done, we will go do something else. And we will enjoy it. But there will always be something missing.

 

It's not that Agility is the only thing, but for some teams, there is just no substitute.

 

That's sad.

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Sorry, that's too general. I'm happy to answer the question, but I need to know the exact market that the breeders in question would be selling to. My answer would differ depending on that information.

 

So ... I take it you mean that in certain circumstances, when pups are being sold to a particular market, it would be okay to breed against ETS?

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That's one thing about ETS, though. It's not just happening while the pressure is on. If it only happened in trials, or when a MACH is on the line, that would be very different from what is actually being observed.

 

For these dogs it happens during regular and normal training, as well as in competitive settings.

So are you saying there's no pressure in training? ISTM if training is preparation for competition then the pressure is there. For stockwork it sure is. Maybe my choice of words is unclear, but what I meant was when I'm just mucking around with the stock and certain things aren't critical, then a screw up is no big deal, but in training and/or competition when the pressure is on, that is, when I expect correctness, things go south. You don't have to be at a sheepdog trial for that to happen. I have one dog, my pick of the one litter I bred, who is perfectly capable of going out an winning at a trial, but boy when you put pressure on her in any situation to get it right (she tends to mix up flanks, for whatever reason--I've never figured it out), it just gets worse and worse. I've even gone back--repeatedly--to remedial flank training, and it has made no difference. And yet when she's got it right, she's brilliant. But I don't generally trial her because of this issue. I sometimes use her at home, but wrong flanks aren't helpful there either. But in training or competition where I expect to get the flank I ask for it is a problem. Is that any clearer?

 

Oh, and while I put a lot of time and effort (not to mention the emotional investment in a dog that's the baby of my heart dog) into her training and love her to death, the fact that she's apparently not suited for it means that she gets to hang out with me here. Am I sad and disappointed? Sure. Is it the end of the world? No. We don't do other organized activities, so I can't say whether something else would substitute or not, but I expect that the issue would manifest itself in other ways. And in a pinch, I can do work with her. But I also accept that not all dogs--not even ones who show early promise--will "stick it out" for the long term.

 

For my oldsters, there comes a time when they just can't work anymore, even if they want to. And so they are retired. If there's something easy that needs done I will sometimes pull out one of the geriatrics and let them have at it, but there just comes a time when they're done.

 

Not too long ago someone said to me that I could just give Twist Rimadyl or similar before running her at a trial (she is developing arthritis in her feet and so its painful on hard, rocky or gravelly surfaces, or even on some trailer ramps). Well, that poses an ethical question for me. Do I really want to give her meds so that *I* can run her at a trial for the glory we might have? She's the dog who took me from novice to open, took my to my first finals, and is still my go-to dog at home for anything that requires real finesse and thinking. From my POV I'd rather not continue to trial her (being able to do so through medicating, etc.) and instead keep her for use at home where, let's face it, the work is more important (big picture impportant: if she can't get around a trial course because she's in pain, the only real loss is perhaps a ribbon, but if she can't step up and help move the rams or load lambs on the trailer--tough jobs that I really need done, then that is a big problem). So I retired her from trialing and she still helps at home. (Granted, there is no "help at home" equivalent for sports like agility, but I suppose you could play on the equipment at home with retirees without a goal of competition at the end.)

 

So while I understand that there may not be a true joyful substitute that one can turn to if one's dog suddenly (or over time) is unable to do what you're used to doing as a team, I also think it's a fact of life and something anyone who competes in any activity with a dog needs to be prepared to deal with. It kills me to watch Twist age, to see her protect herself in situations where that need for self-protection would not even have been a concern a few short years ago. But I also don't think she's pining away over not being trialed. In fact, she might just be grateful to not have to deal with *that* sort of pressure anymore. Who knows?

 

J.

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What Pearse says makes perfect sense to me, whereas "No, it can't be rally, it can't be freestyle, it can't be X or Y or Z -- it MUST be Agility" makes no sense to me at all.

 

If your dogs could no longer work sheep and someone told you that you shouldn't care, and to go play agility with them instead, you'd probably think that was a ridiculous suggestion.

 

If someone obtains a dog for, in part, the purpose of playing agility at a high level of performance, and put a lot of time and effort into training and enjoyed results, and then suddenly it all fell apart, and there was something tangible and physical (or genetic, whatever) that prevented that dog from playing, I can't believe that anyone here seriously believes it's reasonable to think that person's disappointment would be silly and that substituting some other random activity should resolve that disappointment and be equally as attractive to them.

 

As for ETS, if there is a "gene" for it and it actually exists, I would think sporter collie breeders should consider not breeding dogs affected by it, certainly. I think that'd probably seriously cut into their market share of buyers ;-) And unless it's connected to something more dire / threatening, I can't see it mattering to much of anyone else. However, I *suspect* that those interested in the study believe it to be connected to a more significant physical or physiological problem that would be identified as a result of the study.

 

Or not. I really don't know. I would hope that's the assumption, because otherwise it seems silly on the surface - although hey, it's being organized by a group of people who already don't breed for the reasons stockdog types agree with and are already producing dogs of a suspected, or known, non-working variety ... so who cares where they spend their money and what they chop out of their gene pool. No? It shouldn't affect the working stockdog in anyway.

 

And having said that, if there is such a thing as ETS, I wouldn't want a dog affected by it! And there are a lot of people who take agility a lot more seriously than I do, so they probably want that even less :)

 

RDM

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If your dogs could no longer work sheep and someone told you that you shouldn't care, and to go play agility with them instead, you'd probably think that was a ridiculous suggestion.

 

If someone obtains a dog for, in part, the purpose of playing agility at a high level of performance, and put a lot of time and effort into training and enjoyed results, and then suddenly it all fell apart, and there was something tangible and physical (or genetic, whatever) that prevented that dog from playing, I can't believe that anyone here seriously believes it's reasonable to think that person's disappointment would be silly and that substituting some other random activity should resolve that disappointment and be equally as attractive to them.

 

This.

 

As for ETS, if there is a "gene" for it and it actually exists, I would think sporter collie breeders should consider not breeding dogs affected by it, certainly. I think that'd probably seriously cut into their market share of buyers ;-) And unless it's connected to something more dire / threatening, I can't see it mattering to much of anyone else. However, I *suspect* that those interested in the study believe it to be connected to a more significant physical or physiological problem that would be identified as a result of the study.

 

Just like any other breeding issue, we all know what kind of effect trying to "breed something out" can have. I think that is a valid issue/ concern. Folks here view breeding from a completely different paradigm than other groups do, and it makes total sense from that POV to not consider a dog who seems to have this issue as a breeding prospect.

 

I don't think anyone is trying to ID a specific gene that causes jump dysfunction, like its a disease. But they can look to see what the dogs who have this have in common as maybe it will point to something that could be causing it.

 

As to the repeated assertions that this isn't a real issue, its just a label, or a training isuue, etc....well, everyone is of course entitled to their opinion but it seems to me that if you only know a little bit based on what you have read in a post on a message board its kind of inappropriate to comment with authority that its nonsense.

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What Pearse says makes perfect sense to me, whereas "No, it can't be rally, it can't be freestyle, it can't be X or Y or Z -- it MUST be Agility" makes no sense to me at all.

If your dogs could no longer work sheep and someone told you that you shouldn't care, and to go play agility with them instead, you'd probably think that was a ridiculous suggestion.

 

Really? Well, if they told me I shouldn't care, of course I'd think that was ridiculous -- how could I not care? But if they told me I should find something else that he and I could enjoy together, I'd think that was perfectly sensible. It's what I would do without being told. It's what I HAVE done.

 

Julie just spoke about her dog who mixes up her flanks under training/trialing pressure, and whom she generally doesn't trial as a result. Do you think she should be advocating a search for the genes that cause Left-Right Confusion Disorder, so no one else will ever have to endure the heartbreak of not being able to compete with a promising dog whose trialing career was cut short by LRCD? I don't. Sure, I think it's more frivolous still when all the "syndrome" affects is Agility, but I think it would be plenty foolish enough with something that affects sheepdog trialing.

 

However, I *suspect* that those interested in the study believe it to be connected to a more significant physical or physiological problem that would be identified as a result of the study.

 

Does Early Takeoff Syndrome have any identified symptoms other than taking off early for agility jumps?

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Well, I just gave several examples of dogs who couldn't live up to their early potential or had to be retired because of health issues (maybe no one read it), and no, I didn't say you shouldn't care. I care. But I think with any issue like this, where there's a lot of training and competition pressure put on to the dogs (whether it be stockwork, agility, flyball, freestyle or whatever), one might need to accept that some percentage of dogs will show an issue or issues, sooner or later, that make them unsuitable for the task at hand, and it won't matter how much you have invested in them emotionally, timewise, or financially and there *may* be no predicting which dogs will be affected. Maybe there's an organic cause; maybe there's a mental cause (can't take the training pressure). I guess they'll find out if there's some common genetic marker among the affected dogs.

 

But if someone were to say to me, "Maybe you should try flyball with Phoebe," (she's blazingly fast) I wouldn't think it was a ridiculous suggestion on the surface. I have no interest in flyball, so I most certainly wouldn't act on that suggestion (just as I assume an agility person might not act on such a suggestions), but I wouldn't be insulted by it because obviously the person doing the suggesting is just trying to be helpful. After all, sports competitions are sports competitions, and in the grand scheme of things, nothing of great importance (creating world peace, ending world hunger, stopping wars, etc.) ultimately rides on whether any particular animal measures up.

 

J.

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Liz,

One of the reasons I have so many dogs is I'm just not comfortable selling them on. So Phoebe stays here, where she has a pretty good life. I've used her for set out work some and as Twist is retiring from that work as well, Phoebe's now my back up to Pip when we set sheep at trials (because once the dog learns the job you really don't need to tell them what to do, so asking for a particular flank becomes a non-issue). Of course it's not like I do set out every weekend, so she's not getting a boatload of work, but she can move anything, which is helpful for that particular job....

 

J.

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Julie just spoke about her dog who mixes up her flanks under training/trialing pressure, and whom she generally doesn't trial as a result. Do you think she should be advocating a search for the genes that cause Left-Right Confusion Disorder, so no one else will ever have to endure the heartbreak of not being able to compete with a promising dog whose trialing career was cut short by LRCD?

 

To make this comparable, you would have to say that Julies dog worked her flanks perfectly for several years, and then suddenly couldn't make sense of them. Julie took videos and had her dogs movements and her handling analyzed in several different situations, at trials and while practicing and no one can see anything different. Her dog got a full health work up with nothing out of the ordinary happening. Then we find out that 2 other dogs who are related to Julie's dog but who live elsewhere have also suddenly dealt with this. Their handlers too have struggled and sought out help from experienced people and still can't figure out why the dog is incapable of not mixing up her flanks after several years of doing them well.

 

Why would these dogs suddenly develop this issue? There must be something else going on, and the standard things we look for don't seem to matter.

 

Would it then make sense to wonder if there is something additional going on?

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Everyone is entitled to his or her own opinion, of course. Personally, I consider the opinion of someone who has worked with hundreds of Agility dogs and handlers, and has actually done the research on the condition, has a track record of resolving actual jump training issues through training, and has experience seeing the difference firsthand more credible than that of someone who isn't even involved with Agility.

 

I read her article, and I don't see anything approaching research at this point. What I see is a description of a pattern of behavior. She states that she has ruled out "vision problems" which I interpret to mean gross physical lesions detectable by a veterinary ophthalmologist (although she doesn't say how many of these dogs have been examined). She also states that these dogs appear normal upon "physical examination". Whether that means that radiographs, MRI's have been done to rule out joint or vertebral problems, she doesn't say.

 

She does say that the dogs tend to do better when the handler is out of their line of sight. It also seems to affect highly motivated, "frantic" dogs. This could mean it's a similar issue to EIC in Border Collies. It could also mean that it's a behavioural problem of highly motivated dogs focusing on the handler rather than the obstacle, and "spazzing out" as they get ramped up.

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Reading her article on this, convinces me that it's way too early to start looking for genetic causes and breeding around this problem. I can't find anything on it in the actual scientific literature, so my guess is that there has been no real reasearch done on it yet. Maybe it's just too recent a phenomenon.

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And I wonder how one would know it's a physical issue, like some genetically controlled eye problem, vs. a mental issue? Examples exist of elite human athletes who simply "hit a wall" and then start having failing (reltaively speaking) performances and in those cases it's thought to be mental. I know dogs don't think like humans do, but I still wonder if the amount of training pressure put on some dogs could indeed make them seemingly suddenly start to have issues after some period of great success.

 

Oh, and I can say that I have dogs that get a bit spastic at times when they are extremely excited (frantic) and then those dog run into things. Vision problem? Brain problem?

 

J.

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And I wonder how one would know it's a physical issue, like some genetically controlled eye problem, vs. a mental issue?

 

Well, that would be why she is participating in this study that is collecting DNA from all dogs by also collecting DNA from dogs who have this ETS to see if theres a difference. At this point its simply a fact finding thing.

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Reading her article on this, convinces me that it's way too early to start looking for genetic causes and breeding around this problem. I can't find anything on it in the actual scientific literature, so my guess is that there has been no real reasearch done on it yet. Maybe it's just too recent a phenomenon.

 

Well, how would you suggest she does her research on it? At this point shes looking for a difference between the general pool of dogs and the dogs she has identified as having this issue. I guess I am confused as to why looking for something is such a bad thing?

 

icon_shrug.gif

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That's sad.

 

It is. Unfortunately old age is going to win in the end. But I think she has a good many victories left in her (and by "victories", I don't mean Q's). We will run together again before all is said and done. Maybe even for a long time.

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To make this comparable, you would have to say that Julies dog worked her flanks perfectly for several years, and then suddenly couldn't make sense of them. Julie took videos and had her dogs movements and her handling analyzed in several different situations, at trials and while practicing and no one can see anything different. Her dog got a full health work up with nothing out of the ordinary happening. Then we find out that 2 other dogs who are related to Julie's dog but who live elsewhere have also suddenly dealt with this. Their handlers too have struggled and sought out help from experienced people and still can't figure out why the dog is incapable of not mixing up her flanks after several years of doing them well.

 

Why would these dogs suddenly develop this issue? There must be something else going on, and the standard things we look for don't seem to matter.

 

Would it then make sense to wonder if there is something additional going on?

 

That's a very nice parallel.

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So are you saying there's no pressure in training?

 

Nope. Not saying that at all. But in Agility what the dog experiences in trials and what the dog experiences in competition is quite distinct. No training situation - not even a run through or match - replicates a trial exactly. While there are exceptions, training for Agility is not something that puts a lot of pressure on a dog. We work very hard to keep it as enjoyable for the dog as possible - it is a game. At least most handlers that I know of do, even when working on things that are challenging to the dog.

 

Typically dogs experience the pressure that causes things to fall apart at trials.

 

For my oldsters, there comes a time when they just can't work anymore, even if they want to. And so they are retired. If there's something easy that needs done I will sometimes pull out one of the geriatrics and let them have at it, but there just comes a time when they're done.

 

Of course there is. ETS dogs are not necessarily old dogs, though. Many of them seem to develop the condition in their prime. If this was something that typically happened to old dogs, I doubt anyone would be bothering with research.

 

Not too long ago someone said to me that I could just give Twist Rimadyl or similar before running her at a trial (she is developing arthritis in her feet and so its painful on hard, rocky or gravelly surfaces, or even on some trailer ramps). Well, that poses an ethical question for me. Do I really want to give her meds so that *I* can run her at a trial for the glory we might have?

 

I would not medicate a dog who is not normally medicated, prior to a trial, either, for any kind of "glory".

 

However, I would - and do - medicate my dogs with chronic medical problems so they can be comfortable in their everyday lives and continue, as long as possible, to enjoy the activities that they have enjoyed throughout their lives.

 

I think it would be really sad to relegate my old ones, who have been loyal training partners for years and have gone above and beyond what is normally expected of a typical pet dog, to a life of little activity while the young ones jump in and take over. As long as my old dogs want to play, yes, I will use vet prescribed medication to give them that chance, along with the chance to live a comfortable and active life in general.

 

And those with ETS dogs face the same thing - only usually in the prime of the dog's life. Sure, they could retire their dogs and get exciting new puppies to train. I can understand why many of them choose instead to continue to search for ways to help their current dog.

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Believe me, I was one of the first people to laugh at the idea of ETS. I asked most of the same questions that are being asked here. And honestly, I still don't know what to believe. I think whatever study they are trying to do will hopefully provide answers for everyone, because right now it's just a whole lot of speculation. I think amassing data from as many BCs as possible will help to identify which lines potentially carry this "syndrome," which will lead to people avoiding buying from those lines.

 

I've seen several BCs and one sheltie with similar jumping problems, from the NW to Canada to the midwest. I've watched some of these dogs run on numerous occasions and all I personally see are jumping issues. The only potential harm to the dog is injury caused by crashing a jump or non-breakaway tire.

 

p.s.... all the dogs I've seen with it are still out there running. Most do ok, they just lose time on course.

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Of course there is. ETS dogs are not necessarily old dogs, though. Many of them seem to develop the condition in their prime. If this was something that typically happened to old dogs, I doubt anyone would be bothering with research.

 

I can't figure out the multiple quote thing, but the comment I made that you're responding to here wasn't directed at ETS but rather at keeping old dogs going when they have physical issues that make them uncomfortable.

 

However, I would - and do - medicate my dogs with chronic medical problems so they can be comfortable in their everyday lives and continue, as long as possible, to enjoy the activities that they have enjoyed throughout their lives.

 

And that's a sensible thing. But IMO staying comfortable in one's everyday life is not the same as being able to still compete. I also think it's possible for a dog to enjoy life outside of competition. I think the dog is happy doing stuff with its human, whether that stuff involves competition or not.

 

I think it would be really sad to relegate my old ones, who have been loyal training partners for years and have gone above and beyond what is normally expected of a typical pet dog, to a life of little activity while the young ones jump in and take over. As long as my old dogs want to play, yes, I will use vet prescribed medication to give them that chance, along with the chance to live a comfortable and active life in general.

 

First of all, I never said the dog gets relegated to a life of little activity. Now if I were taking about 15-y.o. Jill who is deaf and unstable in the rear and who really prefers to sleep under the deck all day, then yeah, I guess she's relegated to a life of little activity, but that's her choice, since there's plenty of dog-friendly activity that goes on here at the farm every day. And when she wants to join in, she does. On the other hand, Twist has made it quite clear to me that she doesn't want to continue with some things (don't ask her to work on gravel or similar surfaces--she'll do it, but it's clear she's doing it because I asked and also that it physically hurts her to do so). Maybe if she were on pain meds she wouldn't have made it clear because she wouldn't feel the pain. But the wear and tear that created the painful issues in the first place don't stop as long as I continue on the path of competition, because she'd still doing the activities that caused the damage in the first place. So while I may be making her comfortable enough to continue to do the activity, am I also exacerbating the problem by allowing her to continue to do the activity? That's the discussion I have with myself when I decide what to do about a particular dog in a particular situation. Of course working isn't a game and she's taken plenty of hits in her day. I personally think she deserves a break. It's not about relegating/abandoning them to something less and letting the youngsters take over, because believe me, I don't have a single dog here who can replace Twist (another reason for saving her for those times when I really need her). It's about not continuing to cause damage when it's not necessary to do so. And guess what? She gets to play now and even gets to do some work, when she says she wants to (every morning she pushes the sheep off the feed bunks for me because she asks to go and do it). But she's not on meds that allow her to make it around a trial course because to me the competition isn't that important. She can work as much or as little as she wants to at home. I'm quite sure *she* doesn't care if the work she does is at home or at a trial. She seems to take satisfaction in a job well done and the praise she gets when we've completed a task. I don't know why it would be different for, say, an agility dog. If the dog enjoys it, then let them do as much or as little as they want, but doing that would mean not necessarily competing since I don't think the choices of "as much as" or "as little as" apply there, where they could apply at home or at a training facility. I think it's just different philosophical approaches.

 

And those with ETS dogs face the same thing - only usually in the prime of the dog's life. Sure, they could retire their dogs and get exciting new puppies to train. I can understand why many of them choose instead to continue to search for ways to help their current dog.

Well, here you're implying that I suggested such folks go get shiny new puppies, which of course I did not suggest. But have any of them given the dogs a good length of time off, or despite the risk of insulting folks with such a suggestion, let the dogs try something completely different to see if doing so made a difference? If it's a true physical problem, I imagine doing so wouldn't make a difference, but if it's a mental wall these dogs are reaching then a complete break or a complete change to something else could make a difference. I've seen it work with horses, why not with dogs?

 

J.

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And that's a sensible thing. But IMO staying comfortable in one's everyday life is not the same as being able to still compete. I also think it's possible for a dog to enjoy life outside of competition. I think the dog is happy doing stuff with its human, whether that stuff involves competition or not.

 

I wasn't really referring to competition, myself, in reference to my own old dog. I was referring more to the look in her eyes when I load the youngsters up in the car to go to her Agility class. I was drawing a parallel between that and ETS dogs and why their handlers might not choose to just cut their losses, stop caring about doing Agility with these dogs, and move on to something else. But I was not saying that the two situations are exactly the same.

 

I would actually probably be a lot more inclined to try to help an ETS dog be able to continue to compete than an old one. For an older retired dog, a chance to go enjoy a class in a sport that she has played with her handler for most of her life can bring something into that dog's life that may not be equalled by anything else, even if the dog no longer competes. That won't be the case with all dogs, but I certainly see it with my own.

 

It's about not continuing to cause damage when it's not necessary to do so.

 

I don't think anyone objects to that.

 

It certainly is a decision to make for each individual dogs based on the facts, as they are known, and what works for both dog and handler in a given situation.

 

That's why it may be hard to understand why people who have dogs with jumping issues would continue to pursue the game when that is the only fact that is known about a given dog and handler team.

 

Yet there are reasons why handlers choose to continue to work with those dogs instead of deciding to find something else to do.

 

But have any of them given the dogs a good length of time off, or despite the risk of insulting folks with such a suggestion, let the dogs try something completely different to see if doing so made a difference?

 

I would be willing to wager that some of them have.

 

If it's a true physical problem, I imagine doing so wouldn't make a difference, but if it's a mental wall these dogs are reaching then a complete break or a complete change to something else could make a difference. I've seen it work with horses, why not with dogs?

 

It could help if the problem is something that could be resolved with time off. I would be very surprised if that had not been tried with a good many of these dogs.

 

In fact, I would be pretty much surprised if Linda Mecklenburg and her colleagues had not explored just about any idea that anyone here has come up with, and carefully considered all of the obvious questions, before drawing the conclusion that this is most likely a unique phenomenon that merits closer study, and that it is something that the Agility community at large should be aware of.

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As someone who doesn't play the game, that's easy enough to say. I can tell you as someone who does that it's not usually desirable, or practical, to simply not do Agility with a dog who has an issue such as this. Once you invest time, money, training, and emotional capital into a dog and you see big potential, the experience of having that derailed by an issue that you have no control over is probably quite different from what you would expect. Believe me, it's not so simple as just not doing it.

 

You would probably think I'm crazy for going the lengths that I go to do Agility with my noise phobic dog. You would probably think the "payoff" isn't worth what I put into it. But I know firsthand that it's been worth all that and more. He doesn't have the "big" titles. We don't always go out and have a great time. You would probably think it would make more sense to leave him home and take another dog, but if you knew him, you would know different.

 

I completely understand why there are efforts to study ETS and to try to find answers that can help dogs overcome it. I get why they don't just quit.

 

If you are liking what you're doing and your dog is liking it, then more power to you!! But this isn't about payoffs or doing the activity to work with a dog that has overall confidence issues, etc.

 

I don't understand how it isn't practical to quit doing an activity with a dog that is not able to do that activity - for whatever reason. Life happens. With all dog activities. There was a nice Rottweiler on my SAR team. Certified wilderness search dog. High drive, nice worker, liked to work. Developed epilepsy at the age of 4. Four years of training, expenses, etc and now the dog can't do the work. If you have to quit, you quit the activity or modify it so the dog in question can handle it however much it sucks. In SAR training dogs get washed, too. Really sucks, especially if you've put a year or more of training into the dog, but if something doesn't click or the dog gets injured or something and you're serious about doing SAR, you wash the dog and get a different one.

 

Nobody who is serious in any dog activity wants to quit doing the activity with their dog. You develop a partnership. But if the dog can't do what is being asked of it, then it does become a simple matter - no matter how much training, money and emotional investment you have into it. You can't guarantee that you'll have 6, 8, 10 years of doing your favorite activity with your dog.

 

All this said, I'm not entering the ETS debate :blink: I'm skeptical of the whole thing, but I don't have enough time or knowledge to get into it!

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So ... I take it you mean that in certain circumstances, when pups are being sold to a particular market, it would be okay to breed against ETS?

 

Not necessarily.

 

I would say that it would not make sense to breed against ETS in circumstances where the puppies are being sold to a market that would not be effected by the problem.

 

As to whether or not it would be prudent to breed against ETS in dogs being sold to the Agility market, that depends on many things that have not yet been determined. Is there even an identifiable genetic cause? And what unintended consequences could arise from breeding against the gene.

 

At the same time, if such a gene is identified, breeders who sell dogs to Agility homes will have a difficult time getting buyers to purchase dogs that have the gene. They may not have any choice but to breed against it if they want to maintain their clientele. Whether or not that makes it "OK" is a great question for debate, but realistically, those who are purchasing a dog with whom they hope to do Agility don't really care that the ability to play the sport is not a matter of life and death and they are going to do their best to avoid purchasing puppies that come with a gene that makes it likely that the dog will have jumping problems later on.

 

Of course, that's if they identify a gene that they can breed against. That remains to be seen.

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I don't understand how it isn't practical to quit doing an activity with a dog that is not able to do that activity - for whatever reason.

 

Sure, it may be practical. It may be logical. It might look like the right decision in print.

 

But for some dog and handler teams the better course of action is to stick with it, make it work, learn from it, grow from it, and make the best one possibly can of it.

 

Of course that's not always possible. There certainly are injuries, conditions, and circumstances that do make moving on to something else the better choice. For instance, I would (and have) move on to something else with a dog that genuinely disliked a certain activity.

 

Is ETS something that a team should just cut their losses and quit over, or is it something that does not have to rob the dog of his or her enjoyment of the game if the dog enjoys the game? That is going to depend on the individual team. Every situation is going to be different.

 

One thing I've learned from training and competing with challenged dogs is that there are so many options that most people probably never even think of. Where there's a will, there usually is a way, especially when the dog is driven to keep learning and working, whatever the discipline he or she prefers. You might not "succeed" in a conventionally obvious way, but there are things that matter a lot more.

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