MagRam Posted August 17, 2010 Report Share Posted August 17, 2010 This is not a question that directly impacts me as I have not even yet managed to run a dog in Open. Howevwer, I enjoy seeing who does well and I try to understand the USBCHA Point Process for determining who is eligible to run in the USBCHA Nationals. In general it seems a very fair and properly weighted system giving weight to better performances at large trials than small trials. However, using a large trial coming up this weekend simply as an example it does not seem that the system properly rewards an excellent performance at a large double lift final. Or perhaps I simply misunderstand the system. Using Lacamas as an example - and only because it happens to be this weekend - there are two preliminary rounds of Open which I believe count as separate trials. There are 95 dogs in each running order so applying the 20 percent rule there are "points" available to the first 19 dogs in each of the opening rounds. The first place dog gets 19 points, the second 18 and so on down the line. So far so good. Then the top 12 dogs from the two Preliminary Rounds based on combined score (I know some trials do the top 5 or whatever from each of the runs and some do a combination) of top from each day and high score) run back in the Double Lift Final on Sunday. Now here is where I get confused. Is the Sunday Final treated as a separate trial but with only 12 dogs running ? If so this would not seem to properly reward someone for doing well in the extra difficult task of doing well in a big double lift final. 12 dogs would mean only 2.4 points for the winner - hardly seeming like an appropriate recognition for winning a large double lift trial. (Yes - I know you get invitations to places like Soldier Hollow but it seems there should be more USBCHA points rewards). In looking at the USBCHA point system I do not see any allowance for extra points for a double lift final. Am I just missing it ?? Should there be some point reward ?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PennyT Posted August 17, 2010 Report Share Posted August 17, 2010 Unless the rules have changed substantially and recently, the Final does not count for open points because technically speaking it is not an open trial. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shoofly Posted August 17, 2010 Report Share Posted August 17, 2010 There aren't any points for the double lift portion - it's considered invitational. You only get points for Open ("open" to anyone) trials. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MagRam Posted August 17, 2010 Author Report Share Posted August 17, 2010 There aren't any points for the double lift portion - it's considered invitational. You only get points for Open ("open" to anyone) trials. That is sort of the point. Clearly it is a tougher test of dogs and handlers who have "earned" their way into the double lift final. Plus it is a good test of whether you will be able to exwecute a double lift at the Nationals. Shouldn't it count for something towards national qualifications ?? I guess it is sort of a policy question and I would come down on the side of making all double lift finals count for nationals qualification. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shoofly Posted August 17, 2010 Report Share Posted August 17, 2010 I don't think i really see a problem in how things are done now. Are there teams out there running in the big DLs who aren't getting enough points for the Finals in the qualifying rounds? I actually do see your point but i'm not sure there's really a problem in existence that needs addressed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MagRam Posted August 17, 2010 Author Report Share Posted August 17, 2010 I don't think i really see a problem in how things are done now. Are there teams out there running in the big DLs who aren't getting enough points for the Finals in the qualifying rounds? I actually do see your point but i'm not sure there's really a problem in existence that needs addressed. Probably not a problem in practice as you point out. I am pretty sure most handler teams doing well in double lifts (as you did @ Kingstom, congrats BTW) are probably qualifying anyway. I also see the point that the final is technically an "invitational" although niot in the same sense as say Soldier Hollow - the Prelim Rounds are Open to all. It was more an observation that it seemed to my uninitiated POV that maybe there should be more reward for doing well at a big double lift. It would be interesting to see if success at big double lift files through the year is a better predictor of success in the Finals - especially the Final Double Lift, but in practical terms you are probably right - most all teams that are qualifying and doing well for major double lift finals are probably getting enough points for nationals anyway. Anyway I thought it might be an interesting discussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted August 17, 2010 Report Share Posted August 17, 2010 I agree with Robin. I doubt very much that teams that consistently make it into double lift finals at trials aren't getting enough points otherwise to get into the finals (pretty much by defnition if they've made it to the DL they've placed well at the trial and so have earned plenty of points). And really, I don't think all that many trials offer double lift finals--it's usually big trials anyway, with plenty of points in play in the regular open rounds. J. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shoofly Posted August 17, 2010 Report Share Posted August 17, 2010 It is an interesting question but i think most of those big DL trials are prestigious enough without needing Finals points as well. Good question though! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MagRam Posted August 17, 2010 Author Report Share Posted August 17, 2010 I agree with Robin. I doubt very much that teams that consistently make it into double lift finals at trials aren't getting enough points otherwise to get into the finals (pretty much by defnition if they've made it to the DL they've placed well at the trial and so have earned plenty of points). And really, I don't think all that many trials offer double lift finals--it's usually big trials anyway, with plenty of points in play in the regular open rounds. J. Thinking about it in practical terms you are probably right. For example to make it into the Lacamas Double Lift (as top 12 overall) you would likely have to average pretty well in the two prelim rounds - say you were 12th in each trial just to get in - you would get 7 points from each trial for a total of 14 points and would be well on your way to qualifying for nationals from one weekend. I guess I should not worry about it since it does not seem to be an actual problem but it was something that kind of bugged me reading the point process Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PennyT Posted August 17, 2010 Report Share Posted August 17, 2010 The way it works now is that if all entries run in two open trials and then, say 12 to 20, run in the double lift, then points are earned for the individual trials. Consider the difficulty of deciding how to change the point structure fairly. If 100 dogs run in an opening round, but only 12 run back, how would those points be awarded for the top 12? Dog winning the opening round could end up with points for ranking 12. With two full open trials, the point restructuring would get nightmarish. Some system of bonus points would be possible. Hardly seems worth bothering. Penny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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