Breeding farm dogs

[Journey]

Ok, all things equal I would take the farm dog. I feel, just a feeling, that what you see in the farm dog is the natural dog whereas the trial dog is trained, maybe not mechanical, but not as natural as the other and no way to determine what really was there or not.

[bcnewe2]

Not me, I'd have to pick on the particular dog. I have seen great trial dogs be great farm dogs and vise versa so its all about the particular dog for me.

[Mark Billadeau]

Ok, all things equal I would take the farm dog. I feel, just a feeling, that what you see in the farm dog is the natural dog whereas the trial dog is trained, maybe not mechanical, but not as natural as the other and no way to determine what really was there or not.

Have you not see trial dogs do most of the work with very few commands? If the handler is not providing commands, then wouldn't this be "the natural dog"?

 

I've watched some dogs bring the sheep straight off the top of Edgworth with only a few commands (2 or 3).

Also at Edgworth I watched a young dog put the sheep in the pen while the hander stood at the end of the rope, silent.

I had the privilege to stand at the post (at Edgworth) and watch one of my dogs drive the sheep from me to the drive panel without commands once started on the line.

Wouldn't these be considered "the natural dog"?

In all these cases the dog has learned their job and are relying upon its instincts to complete the job; no different than farm work.

 

 

[juliepoudrier]

Of course there are trial dogs who do their work with few commands, but the trend seems to have swung more toward the dogs who are "spoken to" practically every step of the way, even if it's just a steady command. You see very few silent gathers anymore (I know often I was the only--or one of a very few--handler who would go to the post and not whistle my dog all the way down the fetch), which is a shame. I wish silent gathers would be used more as tiebreakers. I think Karen's point is that at a trial, it's difficult to judge which dogs would work naturally if left alone vs. those who might actually need all the commanding. One thing I particularly like about setting sheep at trials is being able to see what the dogs do at the top end of their outruns, especially on big fields where the handler can't really see to direct, so to speak. I've learned a great deal about dogs this way.

 

Although I wouldn't choose a farm dog over a trial dog based on any assumptions regarding naturalness (I've already stated that I would choose the dog that I liked best from a personal standpoint), I do think it's more difficult to determine whether a dog is "a natural" at trials because the handling trend seems to have tipped toward a lot of commanding, needed or not. But I suppose that's a whole 'nother topic.

 

J.

[Mark Billadeau]

My point was, there is evidence of dogs natural abilities at trials; you just have to pay much closer attention when the handler is giving continual commands. I see plenty of times dogs reacting to sheep a split second before the command is given; if you're not waching closely you'd miss it.

 

I too like to see silent gathers as tie breakers..

[Smalahundur]

What I actually wonder and my ignorance was probably evident in my previous posts, is there really such a sharp divide between farm dogs and trial dogs?

Here you have farm dogs that (occasionally) trial. And farm dogs that don´t.

[juliepoudrier]

Smalahundur,

Trialing is pretty much now a sport unto itself here in the US, so you have plenty of dogs being run by people who don't own livestock themselves. These dogs may get to work stock plenty, but they aren't farm dogs by any means. Likewise there are farmers/ranchers who use dogs on a daily basis but who probably aren't even aware that trials exist. Some of the work these dogs do might be very high level work and some of it may be very rough work. So yes, there is something of a divide here.

 

J.

[Lana]

I agree there Julie and there is a divide.

 

I also take with a grain of salt when people who have never trialed, or not trialed at a high level, start to talk about what trial dogs are and are not. Especially when it is mostly about what weak, mechanical bastards they are. I am not speaking to anybody's post in this thread, this topic has been beat like a dead horse on many a forum.

 

Same for people who have not raised commercial livestock who talk about how any old dog can do "ranch work." Any old dog can move stock that wants to go. When you are talking large numbers of relatively undogged stock, hours of work( esp with young at their side) and taking them to places they do no wish to go...that is a different story.

 

Best to just judge the individual dog and deal with people you trust, who also have the same goals that you do as to what they wish to do with the pups.

[Mark Billadeau]

The problem is the work on one farm is not neccessarily the same as the work on another farm; just like the work at one trial is not neccessarily the same as at another. So saying a farm dog or a trial dog tells me nothing about the dog's ability until I know more about the farm or trial.

[DeltaBluez Tess]

I would get one of Lana's "farm dogs" in a heartbeat.....you know for a fact, they are a great representation of what a Border Collie is all about.....

 

but the farmer down the street who has ten pet sheep and the dog moves them to the barn at night to be put away....nope!

[juliepoudrier]

Clearly you'd have to know something about the farm operation. Generally, I wouldn't feel comfortable with a farm dog unless I saw it in person and saw the type of work it did. If I couldn't see the dog personally, I would take the word of someone I trusted (and who has similar ideas as I do regarding what makes a good dog), but whether farm or trial dog, I'd much rather see the dog working myself, and perferably on more than one occasion.

 

J.

[TEC]

Roy Goutte wrote a nice article about 2-3 years ago in the International Sheepdog Society News, entitled, "The Farm dog -- what is the story?". Roy has written numerous articles for the magazine, and he appears to be a self-taught expert on border collie blood lines. He draws from documented facts, and writes convincingly.

 

He finds that unregistered farm dogs who come to him for training are superior in work ethic to the registered ones. He states they are a joy, having a thirst and enthusiasm for work unmatched by registered trial dogs. He believes that the time-honored (honoured, Brit.) method of judicious line-breeding back to their local roots, much as the shepherds of old -- breeding to the hard-working star (target) down the lane -- is the primary reason he is seeing this phenomena. He takes a swing at competition, saying that the farm dog's breeding is not influenced by a master trialler handling a mediocre dog, but by the worth of the dog on the farm.

 

I have portions of the article in PDF format, and will provide excerpts on request. Just let me know. -- Kind regards, TEC

[Mark Billadeau]

line breeding = in-breeding

 

 

[DeltaBluez Tess]

TEC (Tom)

 

What personal experience have you had with farm and trial dogs? By farm, I don't mean 5-20 training or hobby sheep...but actual sheep operation?

 

Or other folks, how many have you actually worked more than 50 undogged, range or fresh sheep....meaning actually working them....

 

 

Diane

[Debbie Meier]

I suspect that a persons expirence with both farm dogs and trial dogs would be different depending on the part of the country they are from and what influences that area had over the last 25 years or so along with what the traditional method of handling livestock is for that area.

[appyridr]

I do not own sheep or live on a farm - weekend hobbyist. My Dusty is 'farm bred' although his sire was a grandson of Berhow's Nick and he may have competed in a couple nursery trials. Then he spent the rest of his life working a 600 ewe flock with next to zero help from the farmer. He was treated like a tool and sometimes left forgotten in a field while the farmer went home for lunch. His mother never trialed but has siblings who did. She works a smaller flock but also by someone with no trial experience. Dusty is not a trial dog as he suffered my 'first dog learning curve'. However he can do set out almost all on his own and has moved half the flock of range sheep from the Open field to the P/N at Lacamas. He does have siblings who are successful trial dogs and work small farms.

My other dog, Blair comes from trial lines that also work commercial cattle & sheep on the prairies. I also have his son, Owen whose mother never trialed but works a small herd of dairy cattle. She is the same way bred as Dusty. They only breed to replace. My other dog, Jayne has same sire as Blair and is out of a bitch sired by a trial dog that I love. She may be the best trial dog but is the last one I'd use for farm work. But she did win a silent gather tie breaker last year. ;-)

So I guess my dogs are sort of 50/50: two are sired by very famous successful trial dog while the other two are out of non-trial dogs but also have some trial dogs in their pedigrees. Like what others have said, it is the individual that works like you what you need.

cheers Lani

[Smalahundur]

 

 

Or other folks, how many have you actually worked more than 50 undogged, range or fresh sheep....meaning actually working them....

 

 

Diane

I have, Icelandic sheep to boot (I understand they have a pretty bad rep among people with the luxury of sheep breed choice), that kind of work is the reason I got into stockdogs in the first place.

Depends on your definition of "actually working them" of course.

[juliepoudrier]

Or other folks, how many have you actually worked more than 50 undogged, range or fresh sheep....meaning actually working them....

The Eastern part of the United States hasn't had any open range for many, many, many years, certainly since well before any of our lifetimes....

 

J.

[Tea]

Ah yes, Icelandic sheep!

 

 

 

You know me Diane. I trial

 

I run a farm operation, I have my own operation, I broker flocks, raise cattle, I have goats and work the mobile unit.

 

 

What was the question tho?

[DeltaBluez Tess]

Oh, that's right, I forgot about the East not having range sheep nearby....so let's change this to:

 

How many of you have a farm with sheep, raise sheep and use your dogs and what jobs? Amount of sheep and also trial? What do you look for in your dogs or not?

 

Again, I am not talking about a farm with ten dog broke sheep that go to the barn at night, with a dog following so that are so dog broke that even a Pom can run around them and look good.

[Tea]

Ok what do I look for.

 

 

Hum,

 

great desire to work

 

balance

 

courage

 

wants to please me, work with me

 

feel

 

not an alligator

 

calm under pressure

 

wise, canny

 

 

and this is a big one for me- stamina- got to be able to go all day good feet, not heat sensitive

 

won't quit or get sulky.

 

If that happens and I am miles out on unfenced land WAB!

[Tea]

I forgot the jobs......hum what every one else does I suppose, moving stock from field to field. except I do alot of loading and unloading other peoples stock at the unit. And I forage the big flock loose on the south end of the island on horse back. There can be anywhere from 50 to a couple of hundred. I always have cattle nowadays, calves and a small flock of goats, Catching sheep with foot problems.

 

Roping calves to do whatever. It helps so much to have the dogs.

 

Most of my dogs had to bring in other peoples sheep to shear when I was pro shearing. If I buy a new flock to keep for a bit and then sell....more loading and unloading.and doctoring etc

 

And of course Lambing, etc. But my main work I would say is foraging the flock on unfenced land 4 to 6 hours a day. And loading at the unit.

Then I trial on weekends when I can, and set so I get a break on my entry.

[Eileen Stein]

Roy Goutte wrote a nice article about 2-3 years ago in the International Sheepdog Society News, entitled, "The Farm dog -- what is the story?". Roy has written numerous articles for the magazine, and he appears to be a self-taught expert on border collie blood lines. He draws from documented facts, and writes convincingly.

 

He finds that unregistered farm dogs who come to him for training are superior in work ethic to the registered ones. He states they are a joy, having a thirst and enthusiasm for work unmatched by registered trial dogs. He believes that the time-honored (honoured, Brit.) method of judicious line-breeding back to their local roots, much as the shepherds of old -- breeding to the hard-working star (target) down the lane -- is the primary reason he is seeing this phenomena. He takes a swing at competition, saying that the farm dog's breeding is not influenced by a master trialler handling a mediocre dog, but by the worth of the dog on the farm.

 

I wouldn't be inclined to put much credence in this unless I heard it from another source.

[Sue R]

How many of you have a farm with sheep, raise sheep and use your dogs and what jobs? Amount of sheep and also trial? What do you look for in your dogs or not?

We have no sheep, just cattle. We calve out about 30 cows and first-calf heifers each year, running on a total of about 100 acres owned and rented land, with fencing consisting of 2-strand electric on most sides.

 

A lot of the work can be easy - moving the herd from one field to another, maybe by way of another field or two - as we rotationally graze. It gets a little trickier when we have to move them from a grazed-down field through a field full of forage on the way to the field where they need to be. Without the dogs, they would not move on.

 

Sometimes, we've had to bring in a calving heifer with problems to the working chute. We had one that was in trouble and was frantic, but would not leave the spot where she was trying to calve. It took the two of us and the two dogs we had at the time to move her. We delivered a fine, live calf and saved the mother because we got her to the pens and into the headgate, where we could help her. We would never have been able to do that without the dogs, and that saved both her and the calf.

 

The dogs help gather, move, and pen the cattle when it's time to work them. Some of the cows will go readily in the pens but some need a good bit of push to go in. The pens are crowded and the anxiety level is high as they don't want to feel trapped. It is often very hard to do this without a dog or two to help put the pressure on the cows so they go in.

 

The hardest thing our dogs have to do is move the herd across the road or the neighbor's driveway when it's full of young calves, many of which will not step onto those strange and unfamiliar surfaces. The alternative, without the dogs' help, would be to leave those calves that just can't bring themselves to cross after their mothers, and let them find their way through the fence and across, and then through the next fence. That is not an acceptable option. And it might be complicated should the mothers of those calves decide to break through the fence to get back to their bawling babies.

 

The dogs have also been great help when we've had issues with just one or two mothers who have had their babies and not been ready to move with the herd. They spend a day or few where they calved and feel comfortable, and then we move them. But, if the herd is out of sight, they will not move willingly. However, using a dog to put pressure on the mother gently, she will decide that she does not want to stay as a lone mother (or two) where that nasty dog is, and she will move for us to where she can rejoin the herd. Without that gentle persuasion, she would choose to stay just where she is - or we would have to bring the whole herd back near to her to get her to move on her own.

 

In addition to all the work the dogs do for us (and it is often sporadic and often small jobs), just having their help makes a world of difference to me - before we got the dogs, I was sick and tired of the whole cow/calf operation. It was Ed's "thing" and I was stuck with doing a good portion of the work and responsibility. The kids were grown and it was just the two of us. The dogs gave me the chance to have my own personal stake in this whole thing, and let me actually look forward to the jobs around the farm that had long lost their appeal.

 

So, small farm, small herd, fairly docile, and often moved or handled with just Ed's voice and a bucket. But when the chips are down, when the job is tough, when it's not something we can do by ourselves, the dogs help us get it done with a minimum of stress on the cattle and on us. I consider that a pretty valuable contribution that they make.

 

Because I don't have training facilities, stock, fencing, etc., or opportunities nearby, I really like a dog that has a lot of natural ability and is easy to work with. A challenging dog teaches me more but is harder to use "out of the box".

 

And, no, I don't trial. I volunteer when I can, though.

 

Long-winded, as usual.

[Pam Wolf]

80 ewes,about 15 (more being born now) meat goats, just 2 cows for now but more hopefully by the end of the year. I move sheep, sort, work through some very rough terrain. Hunt goats and sheep. Help neighbors dog break their cows. Ewew are pasture raised and exposed to predators so they can be tough. I help friends with sorting and gathering when needed-and hunting loose stock in heavy cover. Often moving stock in unfenced areas and down roads.