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Border Collie structure evaluation


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OK I joined, someone give me some Beardie pics to post. B)

 

Dang. I have several of Polly Matzinger's James, and I'm sure there's at least one that's a profile, but I just transferred them to an external hard disk before heading out on vacation. So I won't be able to access them for a couple of weeks.

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Laura did :) She had extenuating circumstances though - peer dares!

Double-dog dares! :lol: :lol: :lol: (Christmas Story fans will recall the trouble that the unrefusable double-dog dare can cause...) Where's a good picture of Lone??

 

ETA: I think I'd post a picture of Amelia Smith's Star, who is the most efficiently moving dog I think I've ever seen. He takes two strides to the other dog's three, slinky and smooth. Of course, that's when there are sheep up ahead!

690320501_iN7Wp-M.jpg

 

Or maybe my own little coyote...

718844456_hEKYj-M.jpg

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Things like this FB group make me shudder--it reminds me too much of the whole eugenics push in the early 20th century, and look where that got the world.

 

You'd think people would stop being so consumed by the whole idea of... pageantry and realize how fruitless it all is. I suppose all we can do is hope someone will slap some sense into them (although this will probably never happen).

 

 

Kinda funny to see what they consider beautiful though: some of those border collies look like short, stubby tables in black and white fur, lol.

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^^I agree. Some of the puppy shots are especially frightening. Did anyone see the photo of the little pup standing on the four pillars? WTF? Who would do that to a pup? <--rhetorical question. I think they'd have a hard time judging any working dog because the dog is not stacked. And you know, you can't really judge perfect structure unless the dog is standing perfectly still, four square, just so....

 

J.

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You'd think people would stop being so consumed by the whole idea of... pageantry and realize how fruitless it all is. I suppose all we can do is hope someone will slap some sense into them (although this will probably never happen).

 

 

Yeah. I laughed out loud reading some comments, when an American said something to an Italian about how showing in Italy is "just a beauty pageant, then??" Uh? Pot, kettle.

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^^I agree. Some of the puppy shots are especially frightening. Did anyone see the photo of the little pup standing on the four pillars? WTF? Who would do that to a pup? <--rhetorical question. I think they'd have a hard time judging any working dog because the dog is not stacked. And you know, you can't really judge perfect structure unless the dog is standing perfectly still, four square, just so....

 

J.

Julie - Didn't you see that those supports are called "Happy Feet"? Yeah, right. I guess if you convince a pup that he will fall down without the supports and his feet in "just the right position", he'll be happy to have them and learn to put his feet there. Another delusion.

 

The comments on that group would be totally laughable if it wasn't so sad that so many people are absolutely serious about what they are saying, and they are just the tip of the show ring mentality iceberg.

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While it may seem amusing to join that group and post photos, doesn't it bother anyone that that might just be construed as lending credibility and support to that sort of group and way of thinking?

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I sincerely doubt that anyone posting there has had any real experience with livestock or stockwork.

 

I am grateful I wasn't eating or drinking when I read this one:

 

"The head is a very important part of the Border Collie, and not just an initial impression! It has to be able to carry that wonderful brain in a flat skull, and the eye placement is vital for a dog that does this job - they need the scope to see to the sides as well as in front, and also they must be able to take a glancing blow from a hoof etc without being smashed straight in the eye! Ears can be in any position as long as they show response to stimulus. I don't think a BC with eyes on the front of its face could use them to move sheep efficiently!"

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Double-dog dares! :lol: :lol: :lol: (Christmas Story fans will recall the trouble that the unrefusable double-dog dare can cause...) Where's a good picture of Lone??

 

Actually the kid(Flick?) got into trouble by bypassing the double dog and going right into the triple dog dare!

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I sincerely doubt that anyone posting there has had any real experience with livestock or stockwork.

 

I am grateful I wasn't eating or drinking when I read this one:

 

"The head is a very important part of the Border Collie, and not just an initial impression! It has to be able to carry that wonderful brain in a flat skull, and the eye placement is vital for a dog that does this job - they need the scope to see to the sides as well as in front, and also they must be able to take a glancing blow from a hoof etc without being smashed straight in the eye! Ears can be in any position as long as they show response to stimulus. I don't think a BC with eyes on the front of its face could use them to move sheep efficiently!"

 

That one caught my attention, too, Sue. Mostly because it captures exactly the process through which instinctual abilities are lost in human controlled breeding programs. All kidding aside, at least some (maybe most) folks involved in conformation breeding sincerely believe they can preserve instinctual ability this way. That group has over 1200 members.

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Yes, it is a good-sized, enthusiastic, and (I'm sure) influential (at least among its adherents) group.

 

I never understand how people can pick apart the minutae of how a dog looks or is built, and equate this-that-or-the-other particular shape with the dog being well-suited or ill-suited for a job - all without actually working a dog to a high level to see how well-suited it is (or isn't). Those same people can take a photo of a useful dog from decades back that resembles the show standard and proudly proclaim that there is the proof! (And, in the case I saw on that group, not even spell the dog's name right when it's right there on the photo, along with other famous dogs that certainly do not meet any sort of arbitrary show standard.)

 

Don't these people realize that they are going about it all backwards? The work defines and proves the dog, not the "look" or the written "standard" that someone has sat down and written (most likely, with little real understanding of what makes a dog useful).

 

The show ring results in exaggeration - pure and simple. You can look at virtually any breed and see that it does. Bassetts? Once a hunting breed that could do more than lounge on the floor or shuffle around a yard. Bulldogs (of all sorts) - brave, loyal, and once physically strong and active. German Shepherd Dogs? Rough (and Smooth) Collies? Descended from useful dogs but now not much more than a vehicle for a coat. What about Pugs, Pekinese, other flat-faced dogs? The list is endless.

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Watching that FB list is like watching a car accident in slow motion. Can't look at it, can't look away. Nauseating, oddly fascinating. What ARE they talking about? Seems like every person on the list wants to put up a picture of their favorite dog and have the list tell them it's a beautiful dog and therefore a great dog. What does this mean?

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It means exactly what you said - everyone there wants to put up a picture of their dog and have everyone tell them just how beautiful and perfect it is. And quite a few want to find something they can consider a flaw and point it out, but in the nicest possible way, of course.

 

It rather reminds me of mothers and beauty pageants for children (curl 'em up, make 'em up, dress 'em up, and get on out there and beat all the other little darlings), and that's not a compliment.

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I went, I looked, I gagged. I've always been a form follows function type. I've never worked a dog and even I know that the proof is in the result in almost any endeavor.

 

It's like looking at Fabio, and expecting him to be able to frame up a house, or hang sheet rock all day, just because he has bulky, shiny muscles.

 

What it is, actually, is looking at the facade of something, anything, and judging the funtionality on the paint job. Sheesh.

 

 

Ruth

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And they have their doubts about Stella! Not a border collie "color"...so is color *now* important :)

"Color" is always important - when the unimportant things take on importance. :blink:

 

As for Stella, haven't they ever seen an ACD crossed with a hyena before? That could work stock *and* be beautiful? And if she was actually and ACD crossed with a hyena, and could work stock to a high standard, she could always ROM! :P

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It's like looking at Fabio, and expecting him to be able to frame up a house, or hang sheet rock all day, just because he has bulky, shiny muscles.

 

What it is, actually, is looking at the facade of something, anything, and judging the funtionality on the paint job. Sheesh.

 

 

Ruth

That Fabio comment - :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

Oh, my, I really do need to get to work and do something useful!

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This was a comment that startled me:

 

" But what I do know is, if more people like me who are passionate about not letting the show and working lines diverge, were given more support and encouragement by people like you, then I guess the future of the BC would be healthier, if not entirely safeguarded."

 

and what exactly do the show lines contribute to the breed?

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Betty - You made excellent, polite, honest remarks but they are falling on largely deaf ears. An A for effort!

 

Or should I just give the credit to Miss Stelly?

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Yeah, I especially liked the comment about the "crippled working dogs." Okay, whatever. You can't even beging to have a meaningful conversation with people who think that way.

 

J.

Where're the "really like" and "agree with this" buttons?

 

How can you ever say that selecting dogs for ability to work (and that is not just instinct, it's health, stamina, soundness, biddability, intelligence, and so on) is promoting unsoundness? Oh, because people like that think that breeding for the work is only breeding for one single aspect, instinct, perhaps? How could someone be so ignorant?

 

The comments on that group are only good for a laugh, and only if you don't realize how many people totally believe in them. I guess this is my mean-spiritedness showing again.

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