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RemsMom
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First a disclaimer. I am not going to show my puppy in conformation and do not plan to register with the AKC. I am just very curious how ABCA and AKC registrations work.

 

My puppy is registered ABCA. If I was wanting to show AKC conformation would I be able to register and show her?

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The answer to the question is that AKC has an open stud book and any ABCA or ISDS registered animal can be registered with AKC. An animal that is AKC registered only can not be registered with any of these other organizations unless it passes a strict Registration On Merit (ROM) test. It is the same in the UK and Ireland with ISDS and the Kennel Club.

 

Any non-registered animal can be PAL with AKC as long as it is neutered (this is for performance sports).

 

Why anyone would want to support AKC in any way with regards to Border Collies is beyond me but back before I knew better, I would have probably done so. I know better now.

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You show AKC conformation and you lose your ABCA papers.

 

Why anyone gives money to the AKC, which supports puppy mills, is beyond me.

(my bolding.) Yup. The AKC supports puppy-mills, and by curious coincidence, puppy-mill registrations virtually support the AKC. So lets shut down all the puppy mils and bring down the AKC as a swell side-effect!

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You show AKC conformation and you lose your ABCA papers.

 

I know that's true in theory, but is it in practice? Does ABCA have the manpower to slog through all the show entries to determine if any ABCA registered dogs are being shown and delist them?

 

I've heard talk of a few that lost ABCA registry after becoming ACK champions, but I'm not even sure ABCA has the wherewithal to track all of those.

 

The sad fact of the matter is that ACK hasn't been able to get enough barbie collies registered to have a large enough population to close the stud book, which it had originally intended to do within a certain number of years. The original date was extended at least twice, and now the stud book remains open indefinitely. What a failure that was, despite devastating repercussions to working border collies.

 

I agree with others on not supporting the ACK in any way. I refuse to get CGCs on my dogs, even though one of them automatically qualified when he passed his therapy dog test (which is harder than the CGC). I refuse to get the ACK therapy dog title on him, even though he's more than qualified. I don't do agility, but if I did you couldn't pay me to PAL my dogs or enter any ACK trials, even if they were the only ones within 500 miles.

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First a disclaimer. I am not going to show my puppy in conformation and do not plan to register with the AKC. I am just very curious how ABCA and AKC registrations work.

 

My puppy is registered ABCA. If I was wanting to show AKC conformation would I be able to register and show her?

 

 

RemsMom ~

 

Howdy from a fellow Nevadan. :) Though it seems you have been here on the forum a while, I wanted to make sure you had read the "Welcome" message on this forum which outlines our stance on the AKC.

http://www.bordercollie.org/boards/index.php?showannouncement=1&f=6

 

You can also read this article on this site: http://www.bordercollie.org/culture/culture.html

 

Those links will explain why you're getting the sharp answers that you have. Few here condone any AKC registration and conformation is the biggest no-no of all. The ABCA clearly states on their website:

"We will cancel your registration if your dog is awarded a conformation championship by AKC or any other registry."

 

It's not the mere act of showing conformation that will see a dog's ABCA registration suspended. You can show conformation - short of achieving championship - with no harm done. BUT ... if he becomes good at it and is made a conformation champion, that's the end of his association with the ABCA. His papers will be pulled. Further, if someone was to breed this dog, the pups would not be register-able with the ABCA unless they went through the Registry of Merit (ROM) process.

 

The ABCA site also says:

"The ABCA does not recognize any registry that promotes conformation showing of Border Collies. Consequently, registration with the American Kennel Club, United Kennel Club, the Kennel Club (UK), Federation Cynologique Internationale, Australian or New Zealand Kennel Clubs, or any such body will not be accepted as a basis for registration with the ABCA."

 

In other words, the ABCA will recognize a working registry such as the ISDS, but it does not recognize any kennel club registry.

 

With such strong aversion to the conformation world among not only the working border collie community but within the ABCA registry itself, your however-innocent question is a bit like waving a red flag in front of a bull. ;)

 

Anyhow, in the event you were unaware of feelings here towards the AKC, I wanted to make sure you were informed. Enjoy your puppy!

 

~ Gloria

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Hi everyone and thank you for your replies. I am so sorry I did not explain myself further! I posted quickly before getting dinner going and did not get back until now.

 

I asked because I know many people think the AKC is the gold standard when getting a puppy and I wanted to be able to explain why I refused to register AKC if anyone asked as to if my puppy was registered with them (which is why I wanted to know if I would be able to register my pup). When I first decided to get a Border Collie I began looking online for breeders and kept finding "AKC Breeder of Merit" proudly posted on the breeders websites and I immediately dropped the breeder as an option. In my online searches I found these forums and have been attempting to educate myself ever since.

 

Again, I apologize for not making my original post clearer.

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I went back and read my original post and feel the need to apologize again. My intent was not to post anything inflammatory. Sometimes I forget that when I post that none of you know me and have to take what I write at face value and do not know my intentions.

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I did not find your post to be inflammatory - I just thought you were asking a question because you were wanting to know the answer.

 

I know just how you felt. I was once very disappointed that AKC did not "recognize" the Border Collie because, like you and so many others, I did think it was the "gold standard" (just as you say). I have since learned otherwise.

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I didn't find your post inflammatory either. It didn't have the context to show your views on it, so people posted just in case it was a post by someone looking to do this. It doesn't mean that's what you conveyed- it just means people weren't sure you didn't mean that.

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You show AKC conformation and you lose your ABCA papers.

I know that's true in theory, but is it in practice? Does ABCA have the manpower to slog through all the show entries to determine if any ABCA registered dogs are being shown and delist them?

Which is why the rule is about dogs named "Conformation Champion" and their offspring.

The ABCA is a working stockdog registry and believes that breeding for conformation standards rather than working ability is detrimental to the health and working ability of the Border Collie. Consequently dogs or bitches which have been named a "Conformation Champion" by a conformation registry are not eligible for ABCA registration, even if they otherwise meet the requirements for registration. The ABCA will de-register any ABCA registered dog or bitch should it be named a "Conformation Champion" after January 1, 2004, and will not register the offspring of any dog or bitch named a "Conformation Champion" after that date.

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RemsMom--When people ask why your dog is not ACK registered, you might hand them a copy of The Dog Wars by Don McCaig (Outrun Press, 2007). Sorry, this is not allowing me to put the title in italics as it should be.

A

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Thank you, again, to all who have responded.

 

Gloria, thank you for the links. I have read the "Read First" but had not read the "Short History" and appreciate the information.

 

I am reading "The Dog Wars". I read it many years ago when my interest was just as a dog owner. I am now reading it again as a Border Collie owner.

 

Another question. I have read what is required to get a ROM for a dog. If a person purchased a puppy with AKC conformation parents and was able to meet all the requirements for ROM would the puppy be eligible for ABCA registration? I do realize this would be an extreme long shot.

 

Also, I sort of understand the reasoning behind the close studbook for the AKC but I am still trying to understand all the implications. Can anyone explain this or give me a link so I can do further research?

 

Years ago my husband bought a Miniature Schnauzer as a pet for our family. I could have registered her AKC but never got around to it and missed the deadline. At the time I felt bad because my husband bought me this puppy and I couldn't even get around to registering her. A few years later I registered my GSD puppy with the AKC and was so happy when they sent me my lovely piece of paper. Years later when we purchased our second GSD (the one we have now) I was beginning to loose my high opinion of the AKC but still registered my pup because I thought the only way I would be able to show my dog in agility or obedience was if I registered. Now I know better and wish I had not registered him.

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Thank you, again, to all who have responded.

 

Gloria, thank you for the links. I have read the "Read First" but had not read the "Short History" and appreciate the information.

.....

 

Another question. I have read what is required to get a ROM for a dog. If a person purchased a puppy with AKC conformation parents and was able to meet all the requirements for ROM would the puppy be eligible for ABCA registration? I do realize this would be an extreme long shot.

 

You're welcome. :)

 

In theory, I would presume that a pup from AKC conformation champion lines would be eligible for ROM if he met and passed all the requirements. But the odds of that happening are, I'd say, pretty high.

 

AKC conformation champs are only conformation champs because they are AKC bred, and I've seen too many AKC border collies who are unable to even sustain interest in sheep long enough to move them around an arena, let alone do anything along the lines of a "real" border collie's work.

 

That I think is what needs to be understood. It's not just that the ABCA and working sheepdog people don't like the AKC. It's that AKC conformation breeding of its own necessity ignores virtually all the criteria working dog breeders subscribe to when planning their breedings. To get a conformation champ, one breeds for specific physical type. But to get a working dog ... physical type is the least of considerations. If you go to an open sheepdog trial, you may see such a diversity of physical types that the uninitiated could have trouble believing they are all the same pure breed!

 

Yes, working breeders are concerned about good structure, sound hips and good sight and hearing. But there is absolutely no working "breed standard" for the border collie. Ears up, ears down or one of each, hound dog ears, airplane ears, pointy ears - whatever, so long as the ears work. ;) As for body type itself, working dogs may be long and lanky, compact and cobby, light as a whippet or big boned and woolly as a bear, and a small female may weigh a mere 25 or 30 pounds while a big male may push 60. The feet may be neat and tidy, big and splayed, pointy toed or round and foxy. The tail may be long and flowing, shortish and fuzzy, straight as a club or curling at the tip. Color patters may be classic black-and-white, nearly all black, or fancy as a pinto horse with "Irish white" splashes up the hips and over the loin. Tri-color itself comes in countless variations, some with lots of white, some with nearly none, some with tons of copper or tan, some with just a touch of color. And the coat: it can be long or medium or short, straight or wavy or lots of curls - I've known a couple who were curly from the base of their ears to the tips of their tails.

 

So, given that tremendous diversity of "type" within the working border collie, and all the countless ways those variables may manifest in even a single litter, you might understand why there is such contempt for conformation breeding.

 

When breeding for artificial, cosmetic ideals, the intangibles of what make a good working border collie are lost within just two or three generations. Instead of evaluating the working traits of a prospective pair and weighing whether those traits may combine to produce pups that improve on, or carry on for, both parents, the conformation breeder is just looking at the shape of the head or the type of coat or whether the ears have the right set. There is NO thought given to matching and mating the best working attributes of the dogs to produce the best possible working pups.

 

Pretty is as pretty does, and often, the working border collie isn't all that pretty. Not until he is in his element, on his sheep and three hundred years of heritage are on the move and it suddenly renders him beautiful.

 

So, you see ... it's not about politics. It's not about esthetics. It's not about "us" vs "them." It's about preserving the priceless, nearly indefinable qualities and centuries-old breeding that make the working border collie what it is.

 

And it's because there are conformation breeders out there who deliberately breed dogs with as little working instinct as possible. The reason? Because that working instinct can mean a dog is easily distracted by movement or motion, and the conformation ring wants a dog who focuses only on his handler and on trotting prettily on leash.

 

I'm not sure this answers any of your questions, but you seem like an earnest and open minded person, and I hope I was able to further explain a few things about the rift between the working dogs and the AKC. My apologies if I've gone overboard in any way! :)

 

Respectfully,

 

~ Gloria

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on a side note, there is, I believe at least 1 UKC Conf. Champion, that dog is actually working bred if I recall correctly.

Also, depending on the size of the classes and the competition a working bred ABCA dog that was duel registered with AKC could achieve a Conf. Championship. It is something to be very aware of if you sell a older intact dog that has quality working offspring and some how it ends up with AKC duel registration handled by someone that thinks it would be fun or financially lucrative to earn a CH on the dog.

 

Maybe it can't/won't happen....but maybe it can and some day would, if it did wouldn't all that dogs offspring be deregistered even those before the championship was obtained?

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Thank you, Gloria. I appreciate you taking the time to post. You didn't go overboard, I love to read anything "dog". :)

 

When I first began researching Border Collies I was planning to get a puppy for my 12 year old to use in agility. I really did not know anything about the BC. My oldest daughter found these forums and I began reading and was amazed to find out that all Collies were not black and white and rough coat. I also found out that a "Collie" does not equal "Lassie".

 

I have learned so much from these forums. I want to make sure I have my facts correct so if I get any questions regarding my puppy I am prepared to answer. I am also thinking about getting "The Dog Wars" as gifts next Christmas for all my dog owning family members (even though none of them have a Collie).

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on a side note, there is, I believe at least 1 UKC Conf. Champion, that dog is actually working bred if I recall correctly.

 

Also, depending on the size of the classes and the competition a working bred ABCA dog that was duel registered with AKC could achieve a Conf. Championship. It is something to be very aware of if you sell a older intact dog that has quality working offspring and some how it ends up with AKC duel registration handled by someone that thinks it would be fun or financially lucrative to earn a CH on the dog.

 

Maybe it can't/won't happen....but maybe it can and some day would, if it did wouldn't all that dogs offspring be deregistered even those before the championship was obtained?

One Open handler, who has her working-bred dogs dual-registered, has gotten two championship legs on one of the dogs (an intact male) but won't get the third because she does not want him de-registered with ABCA. And, yes, I heard it right from her mouth so it's not hearsay. I've seen him and he's not the kind of dog that one would think "conformation" but maybe as suggested, the competition was anything but competitive...
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If you pick the right shows, judges, and competitors, you can pretty much get a CH, period.

 

J.

This is absolutely true. I used to know someone who showed Collies. She would always enter all-breed shows on the same weekend that had a Collie specialty show in the same area. All of the "good" Collies would be at the specialty, so she would almost win by default. She would be showing in classes full of pet owners who had dogs that were not "show-quality, and a few other mediocre dogs She had to enter a few more shows (unless the entry numbers were high in the show) to get "major" points, but she could finish a dog in 5 or 6 shows if she played her cards right. She knew all the Collie judges preferences and entered accordingly. All perfectly "legal." All BS.

 

Dog Shows. Plbbbbbbbtttttt! <_<

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One Open handler, who has her working-bred dogs dual-registered, has gotten two championship legs on one of the dogs (an intact male) but won't get the third because she does not want him de-registered with ABCA.

 

I really hate it when people work the system like this. Bad enough that barbie collies were invented, but this is just disgusting. :angry:

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it is a fairly common practice for working bred dogs to get most of their points towards a CH but not finish it and in AKC circles it is considered 'cool' to do so. and there is more than one working dog that has earned it's CH in AKC-not sure about UKC. And some working breeders who support conformation showing and others who USED to support conformation showing, most who did have since changed their minds

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