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Refusal to return puppy deposit


mja
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I can see the logic, but as for breeding for stockwork, the prospective breeding dog should be raised in a working home, and trained to a high level.

And that by someone who agrees to let someone else decide if, when and how his/her dog is being bred.

Correct me if I am wrong but this does not strike me as likely in the stock working world (certainly not in my tiny part of it). Would imagine it is more a thing of the showring people. Exterior, color and such are of course easier to judge at a young age than working talent.

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We have three out on verbal/handshake contracts, one is with a commercial sheep producer who also at one time owned Ricky's grandsire and also has two females from Pete Carmichael and had purchased other dogs from Pete over the years.

One is down at a 600 head feedlot, they also have 400 head of momma cows, both are males. And the third a female, she is with someone who backgrounds cattle and also has a momma cow herd, originally the owner had a older full sister that was killed and he wanted the same cross, the female he has now was our pick from the next litter and we had no intentions on breeding the dam again, and didn't.

All three buyers came to us needing dogs, all three dogs were ones we were going to keep and bring along for ourselves. Buyers are happy because they got dogs that would not have been typically available to them and we are happy because we can see how they come along as blue collar working dogs while still be able to maintain the ability to use them for breeding. In all three cases the decision set us back when it came to dog trialing, but I think proving these dogs in the situations they are in was more important then bringing on my next trial dog.

With the female we have the first litter coming back to us and then the owner can do what he wishes with her. He is planning on spaying her because he is not interested in raising pups even though he has people that would like pups off of her. With the males we can use them for breeding at anytime, one we recently have and the other we may never. The owners can breed the males as much as they like, from that standpoint they are their dogs.

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But your youngsters are being proven in real world, real work circumstances. What I see mostly with co-ownership is dogs and bitches that are not proven in terms of work (and by that I mean real work, not hobby "herding") but are often chosen for breeding to produce sport/pet pups primarily. I think there is a world of difference.

 

As Ruth pointed out, many of these dogs will get good, one-on-one attention and handling, but I think they will rarely be proven to be breeding-worthy in any real work aspect. And many prominent AKC show and sport breeders sell pretty pricey pups on co-ownership with the breeder retaining the rights of choice of breeding decisions. They are not producing for the farmer/rancher market...

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I can see the logic, but as for breeding for stockwork, the prospective breeding dog should be raised in a working home, and trained to a high level.

And that by someone who agrees to let someone else decide if, when and how his/her dog is being bred.

Correct me if I am wrong but this does not strike me as likely in the stock working world (certainly not in my tiny part of it). Would imagine it is more a thing of the showring people. Exterior, color and such are of course easier to judge at a young age than working talent.

 

Actually, the idea is that you can't know as young pups how they turn out, and so you send them out and see what they turn into instead of keeping them all yourself. Of course if your goal was good working dogs you would want to sell them to people who would work them.

 

Like Sue, most I know are not working stock dogs. But I could see the value in it. Never understood how you could sell people "prospects" as 8 week old pups.

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A responsible breeder -- of any breed of dog, whether meant for work or show -- wouldn't be breeding dogs co-owned on breeding contracts until and unless they'd grown up to be what they'd hoped they'd be and proved to be sound and of breeding quality, whatever that means within that breed's standard (whether it be working, conformation, etc.).

 

As Rushdoggie says, it provides opportunities for breeders to broaden their breeding program without turning into actual puppy mills with more dogs than they can adequately take care of on their premises.

 

So, with many responsible breeders, pups don't necessarily go on to have the puppies stipulated in the contract. If the pup doesn't grow up to be what the breeder would have chosen to breed if she or he had kept it, a responsible breeder won't enforce the contract, and may insist on a spay (or neuter if appropriate) and transfer full ownership to the other co-owner.

 

There's nothing inherently wrong with breeding contracts, and as long as everything's up front and agreed upon by all parties involved, then it can be a mutually beneficial arrangement.

 

But it's important for the puppy buyer who will become the co-owner to do the same due diligence in making sure that the breeder is indeed responsible and breeding for the right reasons as if she or he were buying the puppy outright.

 

And it's also important for the breeder to be forthcoming about a breeding contract in the very beginning of the process, and to have all the details clearly stated and in writing. It's a legal contract, and should be treated as such.

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When I get a new <gasp> show boy (Kuvasz), the breeder will normally ask that he be shown to CH unless we both agree he can't make it. Normally, the breeder will want veto power on potential breeding, and co-ownership until the dog is awarded his CH or we agree he won't make it. This is a very common contract for show puppies, particularly in a fairly rare breed. Normally, though, it's stated up front.

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