r b m Posted March 2, 2007 Report Share Posted March 2, 2007 After attending our first clinic this past weekend and being in a new place and different sheep, I've realized my dog(2 years) needs a lot of work on her confidence. Even when we're training, I'll see this from time to time. She'll avoid pressure and sniff the ground.. very aloof. I can always get her out of it and interested right away, but would rather not have to deal with it. She's definitely keen and has been learning. We've been training 1-2 times a week for 4 months. Can anyone recommend some excercises to help confidence? Is it something that develop with time? Any thoughts are appreciated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted March 2, 2007 Report Share Posted March 2, 2007 Richard, What sorts of situations trigger her sniffing, etc.? Did your trainer say this was a confidence issue? (Just trying to get background/more details of the situation....) J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r b m Posted March 2, 2007 Author Report Share Posted March 2, 2007 Richard,What sorts of situations trigger her sniffing, etc.? Did your trainer say this was a confidence issue? (Just trying to get background/more details of the situation....) J. Well, she hasn't really said so outright, but I've brought it up and she agreed. Lately, it's been on her outruns, especially to the away side, which we've worked really hard on with her flanking. (has always disliked that side) I'll notice it every now and then during the fetch when she realizes all hope is lost holding the sheep to me. (I know that's partially my inexperience) My trainer has got us working in a tight pen space, indicating to the dog it's ok and the sheep shouldn't scare her and we've also done some fence/corner work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelpiegirl Posted March 2, 2007 Report Share Posted March 2, 2007 Hi Richard NOVICE alert! Anyway, that said, are you sure she lacks confidence on the sheep- or is it that she is concerned of doing wrong with the sheep. Many dogs who worry about doing the wrong thing will do the behaviours that you describe- avoidance- as in eating poo, eating grass, looking away. How is she on her good side? Julie Well, she hasn't really said so outright, but I've brought it up and she agreed. Lately, it's been on her outruns, especially to the away side, which we've worked really hard on with her flanking. (has always disliked that side) I'll notice it every now and then during the fetch when she realizes all hope is lost holding the sheep to me. (I know that's partially my inexperience) My trainer has got us working in a tight pen space, indicating to the dog it's ok and the sheep shouldn't scare her and we've also done some fence/corner work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r b m Posted March 2, 2007 Author Report Share Posted March 2, 2007 She's decent on her good side. She lacks conviction, but she has a pretty nice come by outrun if I may say so. And yes, it's definitely avoidance. But I don't know what she'd be worried about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelpiegirl Posted March 2, 2007 Report Share Posted March 2, 2007 Working sheep is a whole lot of pressure, just in and of itself. A very keen dog is being told by everything in it's body to cover those sheep, do not let them leave, and a biddable dog wants desperately to do what it is told. When you put the two together, you get pressure- just from the work. A scenario would be that you have been extending your outruns, and widening them out if necessary. She handles her comfortable side well, because that is what she knows you want, and once she gets past the concern of messing up for you- she can freely work the sheep. On her bad side- she is still trying to figure her way through the path, which makes her worried that she will lose her sheep- she may slow up on this, ears down, sort of deflated, and then there is you, the handler, who she wants to please- another source of pressure. One thing I was told, was work on what is hard for her, and then reward her with something that she likes- does she like to do flanks? Have her do a small outrun on the hard side, and then reward her with a flank. When you work on the hard side, don't say anything- nothing- let her figure it out. Start out with small outruns. I know it is all supposed to be instinct- but that war between biddability and instinct in the other thread is a big one- for some bigger than others. When you work her, try and picture yourself in a dance. She is your partner- you both know your parts, but sometimes, one or the other messes up- you just need to pick up, and keep going with not a lot of fuss- if she keeps getting something wrong, stop with it for a bit- that is really important because trust me, they KNOW when you are focusing on something and the stress hormones go up. So, when you find yourself getting tweaked- just ask for flank, and do some basic work. Sometimes the learning curve is more latent than others. What you want is a dog who will work those sheep, even if not completely properly- she will still come back wanting to do it, if you have that, you have a dog who can progress. All this said, if you have any video- I think that would help the real experts help you. Julie She's decent on her good side. She lacks conviction, but she has a pretty nice come by outrun if I may say so. And yes, it's definitely avoidance. But I don't know what she'd be worried about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted March 3, 2007 Report Share Posted March 3, 2007 One thing to consider is that if your dog is shutting down from too much pressure then you might want to try and make things more fun. Do easy stuff, things she knows how to do well, and keep an upbeat attitude. Only you (and your instructor) can know if she's sulking when you insist on something or if she is genuinely confused and unconfident. If it's the latter, lightening up and doing some fun stuff can go a long way toward building confidence. You can always move the action closer to you to help (your proximity, assuming you're not putting too much pressure on yourself, will help with her confidence), and be ready to help her when she needs it (e.g., if you're trying to get her to scoop sheep out of the corner and she's stopping and eating poop, go to her and help her get around them). One mistake a lot of folks make in such a situation is to keep commanding the dog, often getting more and more strident, when it would actually be much more productive to go help the dog to do the job. JMO. J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebecca, Irena Farm Posted March 3, 2007 Report Share Posted March 3, 2007 Watch that there is not some very subtle problem that is eroding her confidence. Why is her bad side "bad"? Is she cutting in or pulling up short? Evaluate her "at hand" - doing close work - and fix anything you see there before moving back out. With a sensitive dog you have to be a cameleon with your corrections - and as Julie P mentioned, once you get through make sure your commands/cues are relaxed and confident. I'm still working to undo a ten year habit of shrieking when things go wrong, and trust me it does no good! I think confidence problems are tied into the dogs not having the tools they need to face what they are facing. That means that you have to find the weakness and figure out a game plan to build the dog's skills in that area. Sometimes you'll get a dog that just will always lack there (a breeding problem), but most of the time with patience and commitment, and expert help, you can work around things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r b m Posted March 5, 2007 Author Report Share Posted March 5, 2007 Thank you for your responses. As for her away side, we worked really hard in the smaller pen until she had it down pat. My trainer and I noticed it was always happening in the same spot during her flanks. She would cut in using her body because she didn't want to give up the draw, which was typically the gate. On her outruns, my trainer uses the "get back" command at first. Not to scare them, but to get the dog to turn their bodies outward, setting them up to get nice and wide. My dog hates this! In fact, she's had some battles with the staff, snapping and such. At our last session, I think my trainer finally realized that we don't really need this anymore and we should give her a chance without the command. So from this, I can see why her confidence could be a little shaken. Before she even gets started, she "thinks" she's done something wrong. We don't give her a chance to make the mistake first. Also, now that you mention it, my corrections on the away outrun are more strict because I'm nervous about her cutting in... and it shows. Never ceases to amaze me how well these dogs are tuned into their handler's voice. I like the idea of keeping things somewhat light, but she really took to the tight pen work. We also did some corner work the other day with no yelling or corrections, only encouragement and my dog took well to it after a bit. I think after the fetch, we should reward her with some flanks, she likes that. We always end on a positive note so that's excellent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelpiegirl Posted March 5, 2007 Report Share Posted March 5, 2007 Hi I see what you mean about the get out. That is ALL timing. When I send my young dog I worry that she might cut in. If you screw them down too tight on this- that is, not let them at least try, they will slow down- lose confidence, and in the meantime the dog broke sheep head toward you, then it she is pulled to them. One thing that I have found helps, is to have someone with the sheep. Send your dog. Do not have that person with the sheep say anything- just send your dog, as you are halfway between the dog and sheep. If the head goes down, and she starts to slow, just make some movement (quick) to her- that ought to get her out. Give her a chance to do the outrun, and step fast at her if she cuts in. The reason you have someone with the sheep is to try and stop them hauling butt for you the minute the dog is sent. Julie Thank you for your responses. As for her away side, we worked really hard in the smaller pen until she had it down pat. My trainer and I noticed it was always happening in the same spot during her flanks. She would cut in using her body because she didn't want to give up the draw, which was typically the gate. On her outruns, my trainer uses the "get back" command at first. Not to scare them, but to get the dog to turn their bodies outward, setting them up to get nice and wide. My dog hates this! In fact, she's had some battles with the staff, snapping and such. At our last session, I think my trainer finally realized that we don't really need this anymore and we should give her a chance without the command. So from this, I can see why her confidence could be a little shaken. Before she even gets started, she "thinks" she's done something wrong. We don't give her a chance to make the mistake first. Also, now that you mention it, my corrections on the away outrun are more strict because I'm nervous about her cutting in... and it shows. Never ceases to amaze me how well these dogs are tuned into their handler's voice. I like the idea of keeping things somewhat light, but she really took to the tight pen work. We also did some corner work the other day with no yelling or corrections, only encouragement and my dog took well to it after a bit. I think after the fetch, we should reward her with some flanks, she likes that. We always end on a positive note so that's excellent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r b m Posted March 5, 2007 Author Report Share Posted March 5, 2007 Yes, my trainer is at the sheep right now during outruns. The one thing I've noticed about this though is that dog-broke sheep tend to be drawn to her and not me, which can be confusing for the dog. My trainer knows this and I'm sure that in due time, she'll step out of the picture. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelpiegirl Posted March 5, 2007 Report Share Posted March 5, 2007 So, if they are drawn to her- you need to move a little closer to the sheep, and walk backward as they connect with you. Julie Yes, my trainer is at the sheep right now during outruns. The one thing I've noticed about this though is that dog-broke sheep tend to be drawn to her and not me, which can be confusing for the dog. My trainer knows this and I'm sure that in due time, she'll step out of the picture. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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