Intense sniffing, pacing, other stuff?

[Euphoria]

It's been a while since I've felt the need to post anything! Mr. Tyrael has been doing wonderful we're so happy with him!

But! For the last few months he has been intensely sniffing our other dog. Like nose shoved in her fur all over just always in her face sniffing. Recently he's been starting to lift his leg to pee on her. She often growls at him and when he doesn't let up she lunges for him, connecting like 50% of the time. She looks so disgruntled when she comes back with tufts of hair in her mouth. Even after she lunges and snaps at him he does NOT get the clue and immediately goes back to shoving his nose all over her. What the heck can we do to get over this? Kasha is 13 years Tyrael is 11 months.

 

Last week, (May 1-7) we had him boarded at a doggy daycare/overnight boarding facility while we were in New York. We had checked the place out prior to letting him stay there. It was beautiful, football field type grass, the fake stuff ya know, so no one was really able to get dirty/muddy, the staff was great the place smelled super clean it was wonderful! Good reviews at first glance. Well it turns out this place isn't as amazing as it appeared. We got our Tyrael back on the 7th and he had 9 wounds. 4 of them were bad enough the vet had to shave them to see the whole thing and we have to spray an antiseptic 3x daily, plus cone of shame. The other 5 I would expect, they were small and in various stages of healing and Tyrael is just a clumsy boy. He skinned a pad at the dog park from tripping. So the kennel had not informed us that he was in a fight that had injuries and they didn't even notice! I'm so angry with this kennel and we're dealing with that. Filed a report with animal control and disputed the charge for service with American Express. Anyway! Since he's been back he's been very slinky and guilty acting, he flinches when you move a hand too fast. Lots of training regression. We had been able to stick fingers in his mouth to see teeth, grooming wasn't a problem, touching feet and all over wasn't a problem, now he's really defensive. Walking on a loose leash was difficult prior to this boarding experience, now it's almost impossible. He seems very distant and distracted. He doesn't even want to play with his best Viszla friend anymore! Half the treats we gave him before this experience that he LOVED he won't even eat.

 

Since he got home he's been pacing a lot also. Like he'll flop down for a nap sleepish for a minute get up abruptly pace around the room, flop down in a different spot. Rinse repeat, for like a half hour or longer.

 

He also came back with poop matted in his butt fluff. We got him groomed same day because I wasn't able to get all the poop out in our bathtub. The groomer had to snip some of it out. Ridiculous! We went to see his favorite groomer and everything but as soon as we handed her the leash and she started to walk towards her doggie bath tub he poured all his energy into brakes. He did not want to go! She was wonderful with him, used some biscuits to coax him in, very patient. When we got him back she told me she didn't have to muzzle him to dry, which was odd usually she does because he gets snappy at the dryer (he doesn't get groomed often and we don't have a dryer at home. We love his curls!). He was a little perkier after the groom he had his ears up and a little wag. But he's still generally acting guilty or like he's constantly in trouble.

 

How can we help him get over this quickly! Worst timing ever, he was almost ready for his CGC test (2 weeks) and now I don't know if he'll pass at all because he does not want to walk on a loose leash or let people groom him. I attached 3 of his injuries. Apparently his elbow is too big. We're just really frustrated by this whole situation. All injuries are on the right side and the kennel owner claimed Tyrael was always the aggressor because all the dogs he was in the play yard with were passive, roll over at confrontation type dogs. There's so many holes in the story and we're just struggling to keep our cool and tackle the problem in a mature manner.

 

[Sue R]

Not but a moment to reply but with regards to your older dog, I wonder if there is something going on in terms of health. Oftentimes, when an animal, especially an older one, has a health issue developing that you might not even be aware of, another animal will become very interested in sniffing. That might be something to consider.

 

I wonder if the changes in behavior could have something to do with whatever might have happened at the boarding facility?

 

I am sure others will chime in with better advice and ideas. Best wishes dealing with these problems!

[GentleLake]

I'll reply more fully later, too, but was thinking the same thing as Sue about the older dog. One of my dogs used to sniff me intensely when I had cancer and some dogs don't treat an ill dog nicely.

 

Re: the boarding experience, how awful, for both you and your dog. The guilty look isn't guilt; it's fear. It sounds to me like he may have been abused by the staff as well as the other dogs. Read thru archives on haw to work with a fearful rescue. Kelso in particular comes to mind, and there was another one whose name escapes me ATM, but would come up on a search using Kelso as a keyword as he was referred to Kelso's thread.

 

I'd be asking the boarding facility to pay the vet bills, too.

 

Best wishes.

[Maralynn]

Is Tyrael intact? That could also account for the intense sniffing. My 13 m/o would be all over my 6 y/o spayed female if I didn't correct/redirect him. He's at a "I've got these hormones and I'm not quite sure what to do with them" stage.

 

Another possibility is that your female is a bit incontinent and he's smelling/marking because of that.

 

I agree that it could be a medical issue with her as well.

[Euphoria]

I appreciate your replies. Tyrael is intact. Kasha has pretty bad arthritis and spay incontinence, which we treat, she hasn't leaked in at least 3 years. She was at the vet in January full blood work and X-rays. For 13 she's doing really well no other problems.

As for the boarding place paying vet bills, I agree! We went on Friday, talked to the owner and he was a total ass. Claimed my dog, who was and still is very socialized, was highly aggressive. He rolls over as soon as someone gets in his face. But the owner said all the dogs in the play yard peed themselves before biting. To which I'm like umm the. Why does Tyrael have injuries. Regardless of what happened, the staff was negligent, they didn't call me and suddenly the video footage isn't able to be found. We've filed a report with Spokane Regional Animal Protective Services (SCRAPS) and a dispute with American Express for his boarding fees. Lucky the vet bill was only $140.

I'll look into the threads on fearful dogs. Needless to say we're very angry at the facility and trying to do whatever we can to fix this situation for us. Tyrael has been in obedience school since January, about to finish his CGC and I don't think he'll pass anymore. He won't really let anyone groom him or look in his mouth

[Maralynn]

For the sniffing, you should start correcting/redirecting the moment he starts thinking about pestering your old girl. Polite greeting sniffs are fine, anything beyond that is not. If he persists, crate him or put him in another room.

[GentleLake]

Hopefully this will just be a setback and he'll be able to regain his composure after some time.

 

There have been a number of articles on line over the past year or so about how the "guilty look" isn't so much about guilt as it is appeasement signals when the dog knows there's something wrong that he or she believes people wil be unhappy about. Because Tyrael's been through such an unsettling experience recently, he may well be offering those signals because he's afraid of your responses to him.

 

Even if you dog was the aggressor -- and I'm not suggesting that I believe he was -- he should have been removed from the situation and not permitted to continue to interact with the other dogs. If they believed he couldn't interact safely with the other dogs he should have been given private accommodations and exercise time. Any facility that boards multiple dogs should be set up to separate dogs because sometimes this happens. It sure sounds like they didn't handle this well at all. An injured dog, no calls to you, missing video and a dog whose behavior is dramatically altered (your trainer should be able to confirm this) don't add up to anything good IMO. I might be talking to an attorney about refunding your bill, the vet fees and whatever behavioral consults you may incur as a result of this.

 

If I were you, I wouldn't be worried about staying on schedule with his CGC. He can get it later after he recuperates and, hopefully, bounces back from his ordeal.

 

As for his behavior with your other dog, I'd teach him a good leave it and reinforce appropriate behavior around her. I wouldn't make a big deal about it when he does this, but I would quietly remove him from her presence.

 

As for Kasha's health, there could well be something going on that the checkup and blood work didn't catch. Because of an unrelated chronic condition I've had regular bloodwork done for years and Bodhi knew long before my doctors that I had cancer. Just sayin' . . .

 

Again, very best wishes as you navigate all of this.

[Euphoria]

I'm not super concerned about the cgc. It's just very frustrating. He was coming along beautifully! On track to start agility training in the fall!

 

As for an attorney, suing over this isn't really an option as there was a clause that any problems will be settled through arbitration. That right there should have been an indicator that this was not a good place! I'm feeling so frustrated by this. Blaming ourselves because in hindsight there was red flags.

 

We had went to a makeup session with a different trainer who had never met Tyrael, she confirmed that he definitely didn't seem like the kind of dog to be aggressive. This was after an hour of working with him. Our beginning class trainer said he's a great dog, no aggression, eager to please, way too smart, very sweet boy. Our current regular trainer said pretty much the same thing. There's other dogs in class that get snappy and snarly at him, even lunge at him he just puts his ears back, leans against us or backs away. He's a big baby! I'm just so so so ugh with this whole situation!

[Hooper]

I had a spayed bitch once that would develop UTI's about every 6 - 9 months. It got so I could tell a week or two before she showed any other visible symptoms because both my intact and my neutered male would suddenly be acting exactly the way you describe Tyrael acting around Kasha. Coupled with the fact that she is incontinent if not on medication makes me think that a trip to the vet for a urinalysis is in order. No guarantee that that's the problem, but if it is, Kasha shouldn't have to put up with being pestered, and Tyrael shouldn't have to deal with the frustration of being around what he thinks is a receptive bitch if a dose of Clavamox will fix the problem. Incidentally, if that is the problem, someone eventually suggested to me that I give my UTI-prone bitch a cranberry pill every day, and once I started doing that she never had another UTI, after many years of having them pretty much as regularly as intact bitches coming into season.

 

There's no question that the boarding facility should have called you about Tyrael's injuries. But, I don't think you can be certain he didn't initiate the fight, regardless of how submissive he is in most circumstances. As your first post indicates, he is willing to get in your older dog's face and completely disregard her warnings to back off. In a group of strange dogs, he may have gotten too pushy with somebody, disregarded a warning, and without you around decided he needed to respond defensively to the warning instead of submissively. Or not. I have no idea, but neither do you. I certainly have seen a few well socialized, normally placid, easy going dogs decide today was the day they were mad as hell and not going to take it anymore, and lash out at another dog for what seemed to me like no good reason. Regardless of who the actual aggressor was, the kennel owner should have separated your dog the instant there appeared to be issues, and should have contacted you about injuries. You might have a better chance of recouping at least some boarding costs if you argue your case on that basis rather than that you can't believe your dog could ever initiate a fight. Without any witnesses, you can't prove that, but the first two points are valid regardless of how the fight started.

[GentleLake]

If you insist on an arbitrator that they don't have a history with you could still have a chance.

[waffles]

Many boarding places do have you sign a contract and most are worded almost the same. I don't see that as a red flag. Most places don't allow you to sue with an attorney but rather take them to small claims court if you wanted your money back. An hour with an attorney will cost more than a week of boarding plus the $140 vet bill anyway.

 

I personally wouldn't board my dog at a place that allowed him to socialize with other strange dogs that don't know each other, are stressed due to being in boarding, and so on. I know this type of daycare-boarding is popular now where dogs play with other boarders, but it comes with risks, as you have experienced.

 

I would definitely want my money back for the boarding and vet bill and then would move on. I don't know what more the place would morally or legally owe you. Even in small claims court you would only get your money back and that is if they decide to pay out after a favorable judgement for you. Tell others about your experience and seek out a boarding option that does not let dogs mingle together in groups.

 

I think with time he will come around. Continue with what you were doing as it sounds like he was doing great with training!

[Euphoria]

Kasha isn't medicated all the time for incontience. Sorry I didn't make that clear. She's about 3 months on 9 months off. She just got off, it's like her hormones just need little reminders. She's never actually had a UTI which is fantastic because as a human female who gets them chronically I can attest to their suck factor. I'm gonna go with the hormone theory on his sniffing, my boyfriend also pointed out that kasha is a chronic roller! She loooooves to roll in the grass and get the outside stink all over her

We definitely won't be going back to the facility and I've been telling pertty much anyone with ears and a dog about this poor experience.

He's been doing a little better everyday. He's not growling when I bend over to pet him anymore. I gave him a rib bone today, which is his favorite! He's starting to curl up with us again. Still sleeping most of the day though. Probably still exhausted.

Future trips he will be boarded with the breeder. She said she would take care of him for free. She's been breeding border collies for work and for show for 25 years. His sire is a working dog, beautiful boy, 7 years old and barely looks two. His dam is a show dog from another kennel. I'm a little ashamed to say he's from an AKC breeder but I got him before I discovered this site.

[GentleLake]

We definitely won't be going back to the facility and I've been telling pertty much anyone with ears and a dog about this poor experience.

 

Look for review sites where you can add your 2 cents. If you do some searches you may find several of them where you can add your own review. I've done that with a repairman who ripped me off after I was flooded.

 

I'm happy to hear he's starting to recover . . . and that you have an alternative for boarding him. You might want to consider a service who takes care of your pets in your home, too. (Make sure to get references.) I pet sit and find that animals do very well when they stay home. That's where I leave my own dogs when I go away now and I find they're much less stressed then when I boarded them.

[gonetotervs]

With all due respect, there may be something else going on here.

 

If your old girl has to correct him to the point where she is pulling out his hair (and why aren't you calling him off her and crating him if he's not listening -- the old girl deserves not to be harassed), your (I would guess quite experienced groomer) needs to muzzle your dog most of the time in order to dry him, and other dogs in your obedience group get "snappy and snarly" at him, then I have my doubts as to whether you have a perfect angel. You may have an adolescent brat in the making, who wants to start things up but doesn't know how to finish them. (And I've had dogs in that state myself -- this isn't intended as criticism, just as a potential reality check.)

Does the pup do the intense border collie stare? Does he have good off-leash manners around dogs of a variety of other breeds and ages? When you say he is well-socialized, what does that mean? He meets xxx new people a week and/or xxx new dogs?

I agree that the boarding facility should have separated your guy out once a fight ensued, and told you about it.

 

 

Meanwhile, expect your dog to be resilient and he's more likely to bounce back than if you fuss a lot.

[CptJack]

Does the pup do the intense border collie stare? When you say he is well-socialized, what does that mean?

 

This is actually what I was coming to ask.

 

Good dog manners are different from 'happy to see other dogs' and greeting them enthusiastically. Also that direct BC stare can be intimidating/scary/confrontational as HECK to another dog. One of mine used to wig out and it still makes her uncomfortable and sets her on edge.

 

Not that she's an angel, but you really do need to be aware that when you have a dog who gets 'picked on' something they're doing is probably the root cause. Even if you can't see it. Doesn't make them bad dogs, sure doesn't remove daycare and boarding facilities to be responsible and take responsible actions, but you need to be aware and take some preventative steps yourself.

[Euphoria]

We do intervene with him sniffing our old girl but we also let her defend herself so he can learn the doggy body language and clues on when to get back. It's not like she's snapping or growling at them every day. We decided to go this route with training because my boyfriends parents beagle never learned that stuff from other dogs so she's got terrible manners with other dogs. We've had to break up many fights between her and our old girl. (Kasha will just be sleeping and Sadie, the beagle, will just come over and start something.)

He doesn't actually do the border collie stare which I've always thought weird.

In doggy school the dogs that are snappy and snarly at him are also snarly at other dogs. There was an altercation between this tiny 20lb mix dog getting disgruntled with the Great Dane that walked by.

Off leash is hit and miss. We don't usually let him off leash if he's not listening well. But otherwise he sticks with us and waits for other dogs to approach him.

Well socialized he's met many people and dogs, and has gotten on with them well. We walk through petsmart to expose him and encourage proper behavior around humans. He's supposed to sit politely before anyone will touch him. Other dogs exposure is difficult here because a lot of people will let their aggressive bitey dogs off leash at the dog park and ignore them. We saved a corgi from a lab mix a few weeks ago.