BC as Service Dog?

[chaiale]

I am a wheelchair-user looking to owner-train a service dog, and I am seriously considering a Border Collie. I am aware that Retrievers are a more common breed for this work, but I know part of the reason they’re common because they are successful at transferring bond from the service dog trainer to the client, which makes them more suitable as program dogs, while BCs and other breeds can be more traumatized by the program approach. However I know a few programs that have produced successful collie teams. I’m also interested in the BC because I also very much want to start competing in agility, and the BC seems like the best dog to do BOTH service work and agility competition. I fell in love with the sport while training my mom’s dogs, and I want a dog that’s as into it as I am and has the focus and determination to take the sport as far as we can go in the NADAC Physically Disabled division.

Lifestyle: I live in a small apartment in a big city with no other animals. I may one day have kids, but not for five years or so. I work in an office full-time, but as a service dog, my BC will be expected to come with me; once it’s passed its CGC, it will not spend a lot of time alone. Outside of work, I love, love, love training dogs, playing fetch or frisbee, and running agility courses. On the weekends, I would be interested in handcycling with my dog or experimenting with wheelchair-joring. I find the sensitivity of the Border Collie appealing as a working companion: as someone with training in orchestral conducting as well as ASL, I like to communicate using subtle hand gesture and would enjoy the silent interplay of directing a dog from hand movement alone.

As a training style, a soft dog like a BC suits me well. I project laid-back authority comfortably, but really getting in your face with a hard dog is not my style. My mom’s Border Terrier is pretty biddable (or as biddable as terriers get), and that works well for me. An even more biddable breed would suit me even better.

My concerns are:

1. Will the motion- and sound-sensitive tendencies of the Border Collie interfere with service work? I play wheelchair rugby, which makes a lot of banging noises, for instance. I’m also an opera singer, so the dog needs to tolerate or enjoy musical sounds. For the most part, I live a pretty quiet life of office, outdoors, and home, but once or twice a week there will be substantial noise, and I don’t want to unduly stress my dog.

2. Can I reasonably expect to develop a truly next-level “bombproof” temperament from a BC, such that it would be capable of handling difficult public access situations? I accept that there’s a risk that any dog might just wash out of service work or become reactive for any number of reasons, but I don’t want to be inconsiderate to a dog that just isn’t cut out for this kind of work.

3. I read that Border Collies can become one-handler focused to a fault. To me, this could be a great virtue in a service dog (versus Retrievers that get distracted by other dogs/people because they’re so sociable), or it could end up becoming a problem. Do you guys think that a Border Collie would flourish in such an environment?

4. What’s the best way to find a breeder of the appropriate kind of dog? I’m going to be visiting my regional BC special to meet more BCs and get a better feel for their personalities, but I don’t know what to look for in a working line or how to find the right working line breeder. Or even if working lines are appropriate for this work! Apart from BCs bred for agility or flyball (almost certainly too hyper for public access), is there anything I should particularly avoid when searching for breeders?

[Liz P]

Border Collies have NO issues transferring their loyalty to a new owner. Adult, trained sheep dogs are sold all the time.

 

The major issue I see with a Border Collie as a service dog is their temperament and sensitivity to stimuli. A city environment can be overwhelming to them; too many sights, loud sounds, too much movement, etc. And yes, loud noises can be disturbing and even terrifying to Border Collies. The other issue would be that some of them are major introverts and don't like the closeness of being out in public with a lot of people. Many Border Collie pups who are raised in cities need to be rehomed to the country because they can't handle it.

 

That said, there have been Border Collies as service dogs and some have lived in cities. It really depends on the individual dog. Truly bomb proof temperaments, however, are rare in the breed.

 

If your heart is set on a Border Collie and training it yourself, I would suggest buying an adult dog who already shows a stable temperament and the ability to take city life in stride.

 

The washout rate for puppies is going to be higher than for adults, but in either case I would consider the very real possibility that a dog you get to train yourself will not be suitable as a service dog after training. What will you do with that dog? Do you have the time and space for pets who are failed service dogs? Will you rehome them?

 

I would not suggest your local BC specialty to look for a dog. They will be AKC oriented. Where do you live?

 

Your other option is to take a trained service dog (lab, golden, GSD) and do agility for fun. Any breed of dog can enjoy agility, and a dog that has graduated from a service dog program has already demonstrated an aptitude for training.

[Maralynn]

All the noises of opera and noise/movement of rugby might be a bit challenging. Maybe not, but it could be something you wouldn't fully know until the dog was an adult.

 

Other than that the breed could be a good fit for you and yes, I'd definitely look into working lines. But I would suggest looking into Labs as well. Overall less noise sensitivity, usually quite biddable and the field lines would excel at agility!

[gonetotervs]

What sort of service functions do you need your dog to perform? To me, that would be the deciding factor, not ability to accompany and/or play agility.

[Laurelin]

There are some really really amazing labs and goldens in agility. I feel like sometimes those breeds get massively overlooked for sports but a lot of the smaller, more field type dogs are awesome, high drive, fun, bombproof and can be very fast and competitive sport dogs

[CptJack]

Agreed with above. There is a woman in our agility club who runs labs and goldens and they are *outstanding*. Just as fast and drivey as the BCs, but a lot more reliable and temperamentally bomb proof.

[chaiale]

Okay, lots of things to address!

 

First off, to Liz: I live in Los Angeles. Though I understand that AKC-related things are frowned upon by the ABCA and this board, I'm planning to go because I want to meet as many different Border Collies as I can to see if we click as well as I think we will, and there are not as many opportunities for me to meet a large number of working-bred dogs. If you have suggestions on that front, I'm happy to hear them!

 

As for washout, it would depend in large part on the dog's age and our fit. This is a discussion I intend to have with the breeder, who would be taking the dog back if I rehome it, as most breeders do. If the dog and I fit well together socially, my lifestyle is reasonable for a pet BC, if not ideal; I'm relying on the mental stimulation of service training and work to satisfy the BC, and if I got a service Retriever, say, I've heard that their goofy sociability isn't the best match with the BC's refined social sensibilities.

 

Gonetotervs: My tasks are pretty run-of-the-mill for wheelchair users. I would be looking for a dog that would pick up dropped objects, retrieve items like a bottle of water from the refrigerator, open doors/cabinets/drawers, do context-dependent medication reminding (in other words, a retrieve triggered by sitting down at the dinner table). Some light pulling work when I get shoulder or wrist problems, but mostly I can maneuver my chair independently. I have a degenerative disease, so I will continue to train tasks as my needs multiply, but nothing like the kind of heavy bracing work a larger dog might be asked to do.

 

I'm not seriously concerned by a BC's ability to accomplish any of those tasks, which is why I put temperament/ability to accompany at the forefront of my concerns with the breed.

 

I'm also very aware that I don't need a BC in order to do agility, and that labs and goldens can be very successful in all sorts of sports. Very likely I will have to get a Retriever of some kind, just for the bombproof temperament issue. At this point, I'm in the research stage of exploring breed options, and I wanted to come here to make sure that I got a realistic idea of the BC, rather than the "YOU NEED TO DO HOURS OF MINDLESS EXERCISE WITH THEM AND THEY'RE SUPER HYPER ALL THE TIME" that general dog forums associate with the BC.

[CptJack]

Honestly, my BC is a year old. She goes to classes once or twice a week and most days gets about an hour (total) of physical exercise and brain work combined most days. Mindless exercise ie: just running, does nothing at all for her. She's also not a dog I would describe as hyper. When she's going, yes, she's very fast and has great stamina. She will jump up and follow me around if I'm doing something and want to be involved in it, but she's not at all inclined to move just for the sake of moving.

 

She's smart, she learns fast, she loves working with people and being with people and getting involved in everything we're doing around the house. She's a great pet and wonderful dog.

 

That said, her temperament would be crap for a service dog. Her temperament only might, maybe, barely be passable for an agility dog to be honest. She's reactive to just about everything and while I'm seeing glimmers of her making good decisions to manage her own arousal level and her brain not falling completely out of her ear when faced with stressful situations, she's definitely a... sharp, easily overstimulated, easily stressed dog. It's not a lack of socialization or lack of training. She just hit about 5 months old and her ability to cope with 'chaos' (other dogs, noise, crowds) wasn't there. It's improving, yes, but it's improving in response to CONSTANT work. I expect it to continue to improve as I continue to work and she continues to mature, but I seriously bout 'bombproof' is a descriptor that will ever apply - I seriously doubt *normal* will ever even apply.

**ETA:** Which isn't to say that applies to all and I think meeting some BCs and spending time with them is the best thing you can do. I just got side-tracked pondering my own dog.

[Liz P]

A Border Collie really isn't large enough to help pull someone in a wheel chair.

 

You are going to meet a very different sort of Border Collie at a breed club venue than at a trial. Here is a list of upcoming sheep dog trials. Go to the cattle section to see the upcoming cow dog trials.

[urge to herd]

What Liz says about the size needed to pull a wheelchair is perhaps the most important thing to consider. As your disability is likely to become more severe over time, you'll need a dog who has a squarer frame, greater heft and a lower center of gravity than a typical bc.

 

Good luck in your search.

 

Ruth and SuperGibbs

[GentleLake]

I agree with those who say that going to a breed specialty event you're simply not going to meet real border collies. As as been pointed out here in prior discussions, show bred border collies are as genetically distinct from other border collies as to be considered a totally different breed (there's link to a chart in one of them that illustrates this). Do try to go to a sheepdog trial if you want to see the difference between show and working bred dogs.

 

I also have to agree that border collies aren't going to be suitable either in size or physique for one to be capable of pulling a wheelchair on its own for more than just a few seconds. The potential for that requirement alone is enough to not recommend the breed for you IMO.

 

Best of luck in your search for a suitable dog.

[chene]

As a training style, a soft dog like a BC suits me well. I project laid-back authority comfortably, but really getting in your face with a hard dog is not my style.

 

I also just wanted to address this. As someone who has a border collie who is by no definition "soft", it is definitely not an assumption you want to make. Some border collies are soft, but some really are not. My dog is sensitive to everything, sure, and he notices everything, but it takes a lot more than a gentle scolding to get his attention, and I believe that's true for a lot of border collies. Just something to consider.

[chaiale]

I also have to agree that border collies aren't going to be suitable either in size or physique for one to be capable of pulling a wheelchair on its own for more than just a few seconds. The potential for that requirement alone is enough to not recommend the breed for you IMO.

It actually wouldn't have to do real pulling for more than a few seconds, and not on its own; I have a power-assist motor on my chair for that kind of work. I do need help to get over thresholds in doorways, though, and that's the use-case for the pulling. In motion where I'm actually deriving propulsion from a dog, it's counterbalance, which is generally not detrimental to the dog and can be performed by a dog half the size of a small BC. Yes. Actually half.

 

 

 

I also just wanted to address this. As someone who has a border collie who is by no definition "soft", it is definitely not an assumption you want to make. Some border collies are soft, but some really are not. My dog is sensitive to everything, sure, and he notices everything, but it takes a lot more than a gentle scolding to get his attention, and I believe that's true for a lot of border collies. Just something to consider.

 

That is worth considering, I hadn't read a lot of that from BC owners yet. What is that like compared to a terrier, say?

[urge to herd]

Can't pull quotes from other posts, so, addressing what chene said: my experience is that the majority of border collies are more sensitive than average to sudden noises, sudden movement, etc, especially where they are not expecting them. It's not that there are no border collies who are bomb-proof, so to speak, it's that they are definitely in the minority.

 

It's also my experience that, as Liz P says, a lot of border collies are introverts. They are most at ease among the people and environments they know, and some of them really shut down in environments with lots of stimulation/people.

 

There are also larger, more muscular border collies. Again, they're in the minority. I don't have any hard statistics to back this up, but at least in my region and the dogs I see at the few trials I've gone to, they tend to the 35-45 lb range, and are rangy in build.

 

It would seem that the odds are stacked against using a BC as a service dog, not impossible, just highly unlikely. A BC/lab mix might work out. Everything depends on the individual dog. If I were you, I'd not give up just yet - you might find the perfect border collie for your needs in short order. And, if I were you, I'd look at what your need is - for a service dog - and what your want is - an agility partner. And when are you going to need this service dog?

 

There's a lot to mull over here. Good luck on your decision making and your search!

 

Ruth and SuperGibbs

[chene]

Ruth, I agree that most border collies are sensitive in that respect, I'm more talking about how assertive you need to be as an owner.

 

chaiale, I haven't ever owned a terrier, so I couldn't say, but I've worked at a kennel, and I need to get as much in my border collie's face as I do with any hard-headed boisterous dog. He's a teenager right now, so he'll tone it down some, but read any number of threads on here about puppy biting and you'll find that quite often you really need to be hard to get yourself heard. A yelp or an "ah-ah" just isn't enough. A loud, stern "NO" can work with some, but with my dog we needed that combined with holding him up by the scruff (supporting his chest with one hand so it didn't hurt him, for the record) and it still didn't always stop him.

[gonetotervs]

Chaile --- well, if you want bombproof: google Gene and Versace on Youtube. Wheelchair user with his malinois winning a master's jumpers run in agility. The video has over a million hits so it should be easy to find.

Versace is a working line Mal, pretty much both social and bombproof, and with the mal reputation, not every member of the public wants to pet her.

I also have a BC/Terrier mix who is pretty unflappable, unless she is in the mood to create the flap, but that type of dog may be too small for your needs. And my BC boys are fine, but the females are bitchy.

[Maralynn]

I think there's a difference between sensitive and soft. Each of my dogs has been sensitive but two of them were softer, and two of them more pushy. The softer dogs needed mild corrections or they'd kinda melt. The pushy ones take a stronger correction and bounce right back. They can get it wrong and keep trying where the soft ones tend to worry about being right and they get kinda crushed if they're wrong. It's easy to miss sensitivity in the pushier dogs - I think because they can really keep you on your toes - but get in the right situation and all of a sudden it becomes incredibly obvious.

[Cass C]

My agility trainer has malinois with multiple agility championships, she likes them more than a border collie because they tend to be a little less on the sensitive side. They are really smart loyal dogs.

 

I also think you should consider mixes as well as the purebred dogs. You may find one that has the bombproof temperament of a lab with the smarts and look of a border collie. We think my golden dog may have some kind of retriever in her and it shows. She is much less sensitive then my pure border collie and doesn't seem to be completely crushed my chaos.

[chene]

Well put, Maralynn.

[alligande]

If my memory serves me right, there is a lady that I believe has an account on these boards who has a border collie service dog. Mr McCaig has written about her. Sorry I am not more help with finding her but I am sure she would be a valuable source of information.

[chene]

Probably not who you meant, but I believe Lizabeth (http://www.bordercollie.org/boards/index.php?showuser=16310) is training her pup Gidget to be her service dog, you could send her a message.

[teresaserrano]

My Tess is not very sensitive, pretty much ignores everything except fast cars (she's finally getting better about that at 22 mo). She's unphased by sudden noises and copes well with chaos. She's also not soft, although also not a hard dog. She's pretty balanced. She lives to do stuff with me. She would be great at the tasks you need, but she came with an inbuild chip to retrieve and deliver things to hand. Many don't. It depends a lot on the individual dog. If you do decide on a bc, your best bet would be an adult dog, between 1 and 2 yo, so you could assess temperament and ability to do needed tasks. I personally prefer to get a pup and train it from scratch, but I don't have very specific requirements that have to be met.

[GentleLake]

If my memory serves me right, there is a lady that I believe has an account on these boards who has a border collie service dog. Mr McCaig has written about her.

 

I think you might be referring to Carol Lea Benjamin.

[Donald McCaig]

Dear Doggers, I've known a hearing assistance Border Collie and several pain managment Border Collies:

 

My concerns are:

1. Will the motion- and sound-sensitive tendencies of the Border Collie interfere with service work?

Border Collies dislike chaos but can learn to deal with it. Carol Benjamin's dogs do fine in Manhattan and Fly and June strolled down 5th avenue at lunch hour.

2. Can I reasonably expect to develop a truly next-level “bombproof” temperament from a BC, such that it would be capable of handling difficult public access situations?

Yes.

3. I read that Border Collies can become one-handler focused to a fault.

Untrue. I am Fly's sixth owner.

4. What’s the best way to find a breeder of the appropriate kind of dog? I’m going to be visiting my regional BC special to meet more BCs and get a better feel for their personalities, but I don’t know what to look for in a working line or how to find the right working line breeder. Or even if working lines are appropriate for this work! Apart from BCs bred for agility or flyball (almost certainly too hyper for public access), is there anything I should particularly avoid when searching for breeders?

If you want a working dog why on earth go to a dog show? Instead: http://www.usbcha.com/sheep/upcoming_trials.html. You'll find working dogs and breeders at all these events - and you'll get a good idea of the range of Border Collie temperments. Afterwards, go to Border Collie rescue for your dog.- not from sentimentality - but because with a young adult rescue you can see exactly what you'll be working with.

Donald McCaig

[Mark Billadeau]

Carol Lee Benjamin on Dogs