Where did I go wrong in pack leader?

[Bo Peep]

I have raised and trained BC's for over 20 years. But Usher has been my biggest challenge. I have heard time and time again that I am NOT the pack leader. How did this happen? I admit, I love the gals, and do quite bond to them. The only male I had was a rescue and he was 3 when I got him and he was devoted to me. Usher "minds" very well, but is easily distracted. When the sprinklers go off, they are time sensitive, he will NOT listen to any command but LIE DOWN. Then I can retrieve him and get him into the house. All other commands as far as boundary issues are fine and obedience issues are fine. He DOES bark at the front window when anyone near my street comes by. I tell him "out" of the room, and he goes. He is unlike any BC I have owned. Most want to please, he gives me the "paw".

 

He's under control now, though not quite "trustworthy"- well, I trust him, but wouldn't bet my life on him. He does his job fine by me, is a great service dog. Yet, I feel, that I have lost my "power" over him and he's winning. With all the rescue "gals" there is no problem. Do I have a female to female thing going on here?

I do think I have a more connection with the females. Is it me?

[Shetlander]

I have raised and trained BC's for over 20 years. But Usher has been my biggest challenge. I have heard time and time again that I am NOT the pack leader.

 

You know, thinking in terms of leadership is all well and good and can be helpful. But personally I feel the term gets bandied about way more than is accurate or useful. In fact, it can be counterproductive because the owner starts to feel like poop for being such a bad leader. I see the same thing when people are told they need to build a "better relationship" with their dog. In some cases, absolutely, but in many I just see distracted, not completely trained or proofed, and even temperament issues in the dog. But talk about feeling crushed -- spend big bucks to go to an agility seminar and be told in front of everyone that you don't have a good relationship with your dog. It's hard to watch how devastated those devoted owners look.

 

What things are happening that others say you are not the "pack leader"? The stuff you are describing sounds like he is distracted and needs some more training to learn alternate behaviors (sprinklers, people walking by the house). I take leadership and relationship into consideration with my dogs, but often a simpler and I think more helpful way of looking at it is "dogs do what is rewarding for them" (the old clicker approach) and "training is a journey as much as a destination" (my own little platitude). It'd be great if we didn't need to do refreshers or take a different approach on training certain behaviors, but I find it pretty darn normal that dogs "forget" or get rusty or learn alternate behaviors to what they had been taught.

 

Now the good thing about chronic problems is you have lots of opportunities to work on them and if you don't handle an incident the way you wanted, there will be another one coming along soon to try again. Are the sprinklers on a timer? If so, you know ahead when they will be going off and can be prepared for a training session with Usher when they do. People walking by is less predictable, but you can come up with a plan of action of how you want to respond to his barking. I would try something different than what you've been doing since it is either not sufficiently rewarding or sufficiently aversive for Usher to change his behavior.

 

On the subject of do you have more connection with females, it could be. I vastly prefer males and I've never been able to figure out why. I just always have. I love my only ever female to pieces and I'd consider another girl, but for some reason I just love the boys. That said, among the Border Collies I know, I do see some general differences between the sexes. The boys seem a bit slower to mature, more easily distracted when young, and just a bit goofier. They just strike me as more "open" where the girls' eddies seem to run deeper. Now that is based on a pretty limited sample and I've only been hanging around the breed for three years. I could be way off base.

 

The important thing is you love Usher and he loves you. You've taught Usher lots of very important behaviors and he sounds like a great service dog. I'd think you'd be able to train some more and maybe differently on the problem areas that you see. I know how frustrating it can be when a dog seems to "blow us off" (another term I feel gets overused at times). One of my triggers is when my dog ignores his recall. Guess what I periodically need to review with Quinn? His recall. All my other dogs developed incredible recalls but Quinn for whatever reason keeps drifting away from what I find acceptable. What is funny is when I start a refresher with him, he acts like "Well, why didn't you tell me it was so important to you that I come?" And then he's great until the behavior starts to show little signs of wear and tear and I need to go over it again with him. The brat.

[Ninso]

Great post Liz!

[Bo Peep]

Thanks Liz.

Maybe I should start training Usher when the sprinklers are set to go off, somewhere around 8 AM my time to 8 :30. Why didn't I think of that? Sometimes you just need a kick in the butt to remind you of simple things. I know when I was preparing for the UD I said "How do you get them to pick up the right dumbbell?" They said you tie the other ones down- DUH- Common sense does curtail me at times.

Yes, I think the difference in sexes DOES make a difference, at least to me. I just prefer females. I have no clue as to "why".

My simple answer to the barking is to leave to door closed. I'm a wimp. I got tired of every time someone walked by, it's a new development, 2 blocks down him giving his "territorial" bark.

Usher and I got a bad start. I was in a deep depression state and didn't want to train early months. BAD ME. I got out of that and it was like a new beginning, but a late one. His mother is a great dog, yet has problems just like him. So, I won't blame it on the breeding- I blame it on myself!!

I just went out to have a smoke and the sprinkles came on. A simple "stay" while he's in the house works, but if he's outside and this happens, the control is gone.

Thanks again for great advice and NOT being critical. This helps.

[Maralynn]

Excellant post, Liz

 

I think that we sometimes forget that our dogs are just that - dogs. Especially after we've had a connection and trust with a different dog. And then we have a tendancy to take things too personally with our more challenging dogs

 

Missy is not perfect, but I trust her. I know how she responds and I know that she lives to please me. So some of the other things just don't bother me. Kipp is much more of a dog. He is opportunistic and more easily distracted. And it drives me nuts sometimes . He takes alot more training than Missy did. And it is much harder for me to learn to trust him (which is a must for SAR work). I've tended to want to control rather than train him - which doesn't work. Once I loosen up and look at his issues simply as training opportunities (instead of a knucklehead dog blowing me off) we make good progress.

[Root Beer]

There are leaders and there are leaders.

 

Think about it in human terms.

 

There are leaders who are very "my way or the highway". They are leaders. They lay down the law and if it is not followed, there are serious consequences. These types of leaders do very well with certain types of people in certain circumstances.

 

There are leaders who are open to the ideas and different personalities of others. They take individuals into account and create the laws based on who and what they are working with. They seek to help the people under them find their true potential and live up to it instead of imposing their own ideas on them. They are leaders. These types of leaders often let people experience the natural consequences that follow mistakes and wrong choices instead of imposing conseqences on them. These types of leaders do very well with certain types of people in certain circumstances.

 

There are many good leaders who take a mixed approach in varying degrees and can be very successful leaders with certain people in certain circumstances.

 

So, what is the exact job description of a leader? It is going to depend on the person in charge, the people who are being led, and the job or task in question. The same is true of being a pack leader with one's dog.

 

When people say that you are not a "pack leader", what are they really trying to say? I would ask that question of them very specifically. Your leadership style may be different from what that person envisions, but that does not make you any less of a leader.

 

Also, your dog may need a different style from the one that you have chosen, or even what has worked for you with other dogs. My leadership style with Dean has been very different from what works with Sammie, Speedy, and Maddie. Having to provide him with as much structure as he likes has been a real challenge for me because my other three have never needed much structure at all.

 

If what you are doing now isn't getting you the results with Usher, perhaps you should consider a different leadership style? Something different might work better for both of you.

[Bo Peep]

I "think" going over and over through my brain- that I have treated Usher, except in the beginning as I did with all my dogs. My obedience trainer says I am NOT the leader of him, yet she says he is quite an "odd ball" very high prey driven, attention span is gone quick, he's an ADD dog- LOL.

I never even knew the term "pack leader" until a few years ago. Dogs were just dogs and they minded me and that was that.

My first border collie, I DO have to admit, had me wrapped around her paw. She was my heart dog, yet she was very well trained and knew that what I said .........I meant!

Maybe I DO have to adjust my style with Usher, Kristine, though through all these years I don't know if you can teach THIS old dog to do new tricks. tee hee.

I once had a guy ask me "I can't get a collar on my BC" WTHeck? I answered him...How much does your dog weigh? How much do you weigh? This guy should never own a dog. I'm waiting for him to ask me to place her. Thank you ev1 for your advice. I will take it all to heart and keep on training the hardest dog I've ever had to train.

Give me a female any day!!

[Shetlander]

I "think" going over and over through my brain- that I have treated Usher, except in the beginning as I did with all my dogs. My obedience trainer says I am NOT the leader of him, yet she says he is quite an "odd ball" very high prey driven, attention span is gone quick, he's an ADD dog- LOL.

 

Does your trainer give you examples of why she says you're not the leader? I still don't fully understand what those comments are based on. You know, yesterday I noticed in the photo section that Usher just turned 2. I think a lot of what you are describing really can be looked at as immaturity. Boys often mature more slowly. Quinn was coming together quite nicely as an adult at age two, but there were also issues that came up at that age that I needed to address -- such as his recall and more importantly his increased jockeying for position with the Lhasa. That had to be squashed firmly. Quinn's prey drive is through the roof and some people find that hard to deal with. Sounds like your instructor may be one of them. Personally, I love my dogs to have lots of prey drive and find it makes them easier/more fun to train. A big selling point for me with Quinn and the Lhasa was the prey drive they exhibited as puppies.

 

Perhaps I should confess that both my obedience instructor and Quinn's sheep instructor told me -- probably right around Usher's age -- that he didn't respect me because he pulled on his leash. I just figured it was because I never taught him loose lead walking -- only obedience heeling which I didn't ask for except when doing obedience. I think before I accuse my dog of disrespect or me of poor leadership, I might want to consider whether the dog has been trained to do or not do something. As I said in my previous post, I do believe leadership is important in our interactions with our dogs. But I just can't look at everything my dog does or doesn't do in terms of leadership/dominance. I know some people do but that just doesn't work for me personally.

[Root Beer]

Perhaps I should confess that both my obedience instructor and Quinn's sheep instructor told me -- probably right around Usher's age -- that he didn't respect me because he pulled on his leash. I just figured it was because I never taught him loose lead walking -- only obedience heeling which I didn't ask for except when doing obedience. I think before I accuse my dog of disrespect or me of poor leadership, I might want to consider whether the dog has been trained to do or not do something. As I said in my previous post, I do believe leadership is important in our interactions with our dogs. But I just can't look at everything my dog does or doesn't do in terms of leadership/dominance. I know some people do but that just doesn't work for me personally.

 

I concur.

 

There are probably quite a few things that Speedy does that people would look at from the outside and label as "lack of respect" or "lack of leadership". In reality, though, there are things that I don't consider ditches to die in with a mentally challenged dog. If he pulls on his leash to drag me into the training building, I am so happy that he's feeling that confident that I happily run along with him. It was good leadership that instilled that confidence. Sure, he would ease up if I wanted him to. But I never want him to in that case!

 

I've had the opposite happen, too. When we end an Agility run, Maddie often rolls onto her side while I put her collar/leash back on. She does that because she doesn't want to leave the ring! Once the collar is on, she comes right along, but she often tries this. Again, I'm so glad that she is having that much fun that I chuckle at it.

 

Over the winter I was at a trial and Maddie did this and after we came out of the ring this total stranger came up to me and said, "That's great! She really knows you're alpha! I like how you make her roll over after her run is finished." Uh huh. True - she knows I make Agility happen and she appeals to me for more, more, more, but that's not what that person meant. They apparently thought I was making her do that to "submit". Nope - that is totally Miss Maddie's whim.

 

Things aren't always as they appear. That is totally not my leadership style!

 

If anyone were to accuse me of not being a "leader" to my dog, I would definitely ask for specifics. Chances are the problem is not lack of leadership, but a lack of understanding on the part of the other person about what I am trying to do and how I am going about it.

[Bo Peep]

For example sprinklers again. This morning I went out to smoke (bad habit, I know) and Usher was waiting to go get them. I told him to "sit-stay" I saw him budge. So I took his little face in my hands and looked him square in the eyes and said "You stay" in my gruff voice. Sure enough the door was open about 2 inches and he was out the door. I took him by the collar and brought him back in the house and said "I SAID STAY!" So I don't know exactly what I'm doing wrong here. The sprinklers are more important than him minding me. Next lesson, I will ask my obedience instructor just what she means by me not being the leader. I really don't think it's me. I think it's him and his immaturity and stubbornness as I've never had a problem before.

[nancy in AZ]

Perhaps I should confess that both my obedience instructor and Quinn's sheep instructor told me -- probably right around Usher's age -- that he didn't respect me because he pulled on his leash. I just figured it was because I never taught him loose lead walking -- only obedience heeling which I didn't ask for except when doing obedience. I think before I accuse my dog of disrespect or me of poor leadership, I might want to consider whether the dog has been trained to do or not do something.

 

 

AMEN SISTER!!!!

[Shetlander]

For example sprinklers again.

 

In this sort of case, what I would do is work on sit-stay in a less stimulating environment first. Get that solid, then start adding in increasingly exciting distractions and keep working on sit stay. Then I'd work on sit-stay by the sprinklers but with me staying close to the dog. Then I'd move further away while expecting him to hold his stay.

 

When you say "the sprinklers are more important than him minding me," I guess I agree in the sense that the sprinklers are extremely exciting and stimulating and Usher hasn't learned that he still needs to obey a stay command in that situation. Even when you get in his face, the stimulation is so intense I don't think it registers. I would break down the task so he could master it in smaller steps. The whole proofing process.

 

This is where I see bringing in leadership and relationship as being counterproductive at times. If I say, "My dog finds the sprinklers more important than minding me," then I might feel bad because I'm not a good leader or I have a poor relationship with my dog. If I say, "My dog doesn't understand stay means STAY in all situations yet" or "My dog's stay needs strengthening and proofing," then I can focus on a plan of action to address the deficiency in training and/or the dog's understanding without feeling like a failure as an owner.

[Ooky]

This is where I see bringing in leadership and relationship as being counterproductive at times. If I say, "My dog finds the sprinklers more important than minding me," then I might feel bad because I'm not a good leader or I have a poor relationship with my dog. If I say, "My dog doesn't understand stay means STAY in all situations yet" or "My dog's stay needs strengthening and proofing," then I can focus on a plan of action to address the deficiency in training and/or the dog's understanding without feeling like a failure as an owner.

 

good point, Liz.

 

I also think the way you describe choosing to think of this above IS an example of good leadership. The first way of thinking about it (I'm not enough of a leader to get my dog's attention) is like banging your head against a brick wall and is sure to lead to frustration or maybe even worse feelings towards your dog. But the other two ways identify the issue in a way that you can take some sort of next step in a positive direction. I think this would apply to any good leader, which is in essence, a good problem-solver.

 

Dianne, do you think he's a little more distracted than normal since Bliss has come to live with you guys?

[Maralynn]

For example sprinklers again.

 

I would chalk it up to a high drive dog that doesn't have a solid stay. Too much excitement and Kipp's brain shuts off.

 

I have an ADD dog - high drive, short attention span. He's 3 1/2 now and slowly getting a bit better... I don't think it's that rare of a situation. Kipp does blow me off sometimes *shrugs*. He's a smart cookie and being opportunistict. So I correct him and set him up again so he responds correctly. If there is a bit much excitement going on for his brain to handle the I move away from the source of excitment before trying again. I like to tell people that deep down he does want to please me - but it's just too hard to be good sometimes...

 

 

This is where I see bringing in leadership and relationship as being counterproductive at times. If I say, "My dog finds the sprinklers more important than minding me," then I might feel bad because I'm not a good leader or I have a poor relationship with my dog. If I say, "My dog doesn't understand stay means STAY in all situations yet" or "My dog's stay needs strengthening and proofing," then I can focus on a plan of action to address the deficiency in training and/or the dog's understanding without feeling like a failure as an owner.

 

 

So true! Don't take it personally - it's just another training opportunity

[Barb Scott]

I'm thinking of your previous posts about Usher being bored by obedience training. Maybe your instructor could find ways to incorporate sprinklers and other distractions into your lessons to make them more interesting and worthwhile. One of the most valuable obedience classes I ever attended was taught on the main street of a small town so the dogs were constantly working with distractions (including Jazz on the Mall and lots of people).

Barb S

[Root Beer]

Do you own a sprinker? Could you use permission to go to the sprinkler as a reward for holding a "stay"?

 

Not that you asked, but this is what I would do.

 

Get the dog on leash and turn on the sprinkler. Have dog sit and stay. I would not require eye contact with me as part of the criteria, but that's a personal choice. After the dog held the stay for 5 minutes, I would release the dog to the sprinkler and let him play for a few minutes. Then I would call him. If he did not come, I would either turn the sprinkler off (better if someone else were at the ready to turn it off sooner than you could) and then go pick up the leash and lead him away with a neutral manner. If he did come right away, I would have him pause by me and then immediately release him to the sprinkler again.

 

What I would be looking to shape is - dog knows that holding the stay = big reward (the sprinkler)/breaking stay or not coming when called off = no access to sprinkler.

 

The sprinkler could be a very powerful motivator that you could use to condition a really good stay. Personally, I would take advantage of that!

[Bo Peep]

I apologize in advance- this might be long.

 

There is some wonderful advice here. First of all, I'm being pessimistic about this and looking at this as the glass is 1/2 empty. Usher is a wonderful dog. He has helped me so much. I remember when I was at the Oregon coast with Edie and woke up in the middle of the night, still half asleep, and fell over some sleeping bag strings I yelled "Usher HELP" well, he wasn't there and Edie can't hear. So, I DO rely on him for so many things and he does wonderful.

 

He does work alot in public so he's used to distractions. Also, I use opportunities like when I'm in the computer room (alot) and see a family walking around the cul de sac, I will take him outside and put him on a sit-stay or down-stay and test him because he LOVES kids, other dogs and bikes, so why didn't I think of the sprinklers as an opportunity?

 

Usher is no longer bored with obedience. It was pretty easy. I remembered my old dog, Miss Lacey got the same way and what I did was simple- remove the leash. So I did that with Usher and now he has to think more and he loves it now.

 

I don't know why I'm beating myself up so much about one dog. Bliss has only been here a few days and she has learned to walk on a loose leash, crates now and doesn't jump anymore. In fact, I couldn't find her today and she was sleeping in her crate.

 

I guess that's the part that bothers me. I KNOW how to do these things. It just isn't happening as quickly with Usher as it does with most dogs. The sprinkler as a reward is a great idea. Why didn't I think of that?

 

I have a lot of "Why didn't I think of that?" senior moments- LOL. If I can get a steer to come when called, I should be able to have a dog do what I want.

[Bo Peep]

Hi ev1-

Had my lesson with Usher and most of it was talking. Luckily the lady with the fat Aussie had a Dr. appt and we got some extra time- yahoo. I talked with her about "pack leader". She wanted Usher's eyes focused on me full time. OK on training for obedience. I can see that. But, I just like to let him "be a dog". My fault, I guess.

 

Today, WOW- sprinklers, ducks, squirrels, the whole mix. She retired her Airedale. Now he is into SAR. Usher did great! My little man was wonderful. I just can't brag enough. AND, I might have her brought into a new breed, although she would kick my butt in obedience and probably go to Pat for a dog and kick my butt in herding- LOL. There are only quite a few people I admire in the dog world. I have never met Julie P. BUT I like her ethics, you ALL know I love Don Helsley and his soft simple approach to herding, and to my obedience trainer- thank you. and all you others on the board that brought my confidence up. I really appreciate it.

 

Oh, Usher will be earning his "title" I really don't care. I will be shaking and my trainer has to actually ask to ACK people about me holding my hand to my hand. Can you believe that? It's a sensory trick that dystonia people use. Now I need a letter from my neuro approved from my ACK for something I do involitary. WTF? I just want to have fun with my dog. I quit!!

[bcnewe2]

For example sprinklers again.

Oh Heck

I could have that argument with myself every morning. Mick is always ready to go outside, no sprinklers needed. He's a great dog and listens very well in most situations. BUt the out the door issue is mine. I let it develope and I continue to let it bug me. He'll stay back till I release him if I insist then he busts over my feet out the door as soon as I let him go. That wasn't working at all, my feet got tore up in the battle. It's a little one, he can have it.

Now if I go to the door and say "no stay" no one rushes the door. They know the difference between when i'm going somewhere without them or we're going together. So it's not the door, it's that particular situation.

If Usher was doing an assisting task when the sprinklers came on would he be ignoring his duties then? I bet not!

 

When we walk out to sheep I don't make him walk at my side. It takes to much effort on his part and correcting on mine. He's not going to go off for sheep without a command, he's onlly looking for his sheep. He will stay 10 ft or so ahead or to the side of me.

 

I got all uptight about it as I was listening to someone say that a dog doing that is not working with you and not respecting your position with the sheep or anywhere else. Went to Jack Knox and he laughed at me. Asked why it mattered, I had all kinds of excuses, I can't set him up in the right manner to let him know how wide to go. He isn't looking to me for information....so on. Jack said just let him go, if he is to far away when you make it to the post, or gets way out there while walking call him back. But just send him with no hassles. Tell him how wide to go with your voice. Low and behold, Mick did fine. Lesson I learned was that putting so much pressure on him to "make" him perfect was killing other things on the field. You can't make a dog, you have to let them figue things out.

 

back to the door. I've played all kinds of games at the door trying to keep his head from exploding out the door. Yes I can win the battle but it's back tomorrow and the day after. He does nothing when he races out the door. Infact he gets down the steps and turns around to wait for me, just like on sheep. But like you, I really bugged me that I couldn't control that situation.

So I now try hard to not worry about it. If it works for us, why am I worried about what others might think or say?

 

When Usher saves your butt more often than not, why let the small stuff get to you? If it's bigger than small stuff, I'm sure you'll come up with a way to work it out. Sounds to me, it's a handler issue, not dog issue! Aint that always the issue??

 

I vowed to make Dew a different dog. Well I'm not a different person. She doesn't walk right next to me either. She doesn't go to sheep, she just looks for them, She's excited, happy and ready to go. Never more than 10 ft. away from me but not right next to my leg. If I was younger, faster, better maybe I'd make it out there as quick as her or she'd learn to stay at my side. But I'm not. So we've found what works for us. Now I work on not letting what someone that doesn't know me or my dogs might say bug me. I love them, they are good at what I work on. And we'll keep working on what isn't solid. But I try my darndest to not sweat the small stuff!

BTW Dew doesn't have have the out the door issue becasue she's getting out of the Black bastards way or she gets trampled. Works for us!

 

Go Usher and Dianne you guys rock!

 

Kristen