Horses and dogs

[mum24dog]

Just wondering if your major agility finals in North America are always stand alone agility events or whether they ever combine with something else.

 

Even though agility is a small part of the programme, many people consider this as the must qualify for final in the UK, even above Crufts.

 

http://www.olympiahorseshow.com/

 

It's on now until Sunday and I'm so excited as one of our members has qualified for Sunday with her randomly bred farm collie. She's 15 now and has been training with us since she was 9, starting with a rescue collie. I'm sure I'm more nervous for her than she is.

 

Another member won the ABC final on Wednesday with one of his kelpies but he's won it more than once before, once with a 12 year old lurcher.

 

So many agility people are horse people too and it's a great combination which publicises the sport to a wider audience - up to 8000 people at a session. (Not that we need for it to be any more popular.) Crufts Arena holds about 6000.

[alligande]

There are no agility events in the states that have the level of exposure of crufts or Olympia, the big events are the nationals for the sanctioning bodies and are not combined with other events or have a big spectator element. Purina does have a made for tv event, featuring disk, dock diving, agility.

 

For the first time in 2014 agility will be at the Westminster kennel club show in NYC, which I am sure is inspired by the Crufts version.

 

Congratulations on your club member making it to Olympia, hope she does well.

[mum24dog]

 

For the first time in 2014 agility will be at the Westminster kennel club show in NYC, which I am sure is inspired by the Crufts version.

 

 

 

I didn't know that - interesting. Will it only be recognised AKC breeds taking part? Even if it is it's a start.

 

Maybe some of the show people will get to see what dogs can do rather than what they look like.

[gcv-border]

I don't know if non-AKC breeds are eligible, but I agree that the addition of agility to a (horrors!) breed show will make it more interesting to me. Not that I attend, or even watch the breed show on TV, but I am hoping to see some TV coverage of the agility.

[Laurelin]

I didn't know that - interesting. Will it only be recognised AKC breeds taking part? Even if it is it's a start.

 

Maybe some of the show people will get to see what dogs can do rather than what they look like.

Some of the bigger shows around do have agility with conformation. Not many but a few. I went to one a few years back in Houston (Reliant) and they had flyball, agility, obedience, and rally (I believe, not sure about the obedience/rally as I don't pay attention to those). I think they also had freestyle too? I went to watch my trainer compete with her dogs in agility. It was kind of amusing how different most the agility dogs looked from the bench dogs. Especially the border collies at their meet the breed.

 

I had some papillon show people tell me my dog was cute and they could probably finish her but they'd have to work on 'that coat of hers'. I also was watching the breed ring and had people tell me I shouldn't have brought my dogs until I explained they were agility dogs... We also manned the pap meet the breed along with a freestyle person and it astounded me how different the breed information was coming out of the show handlers versus me and the freestyle person. The one sticking out to me the most was someone asking if the breed was trainable and the show people saying they didn't know all the while the freestyle person was doing insane tricks with her dog.

 

I can't imagine what some of the bench people thought about the flyball. They had them separated in another hall by some doors. I'm sure because it was so loud.

 

Oh I'm getting off topic. Sorry. It still amuses me.

[alligande]

Those big combined shows such as breed specialties or the all breed one that is held at thanksgiving in MA. don't usually have the viewing public in the large numbers that Westminster does, and I have not really seen a horse show since living in the states that attracts the general public like Olympia does.

[alligande]

The other thing I forgot to mention is the Westminster show is a lottery system for any AKC master level dog wanting to enter, I only realized this when I saw agility Facebook friends posting they did not get in.

[gcv-border]

I have an agility friend (locally) who DID get in. To say that she is excited doesn't begin to describe it.

The other thing I forgot to mention is the Westminster show is a lottery system for any AKC master level dog wanting to enter, I only realized this when I saw agility Facebook friends posting they did not get in.

[mum24dog]

 

Congratulations on your club member making it to Olympia, hope she does well.

 

 

She came 23rd in this morning's semi final out of 36 - first 2 poles down and second fastest overall. No disgrace for a first time youngster, especially with a dog that has had no respect for poles in the past. My daughter warned her about setting her dog too far back because there is so much room as other people had done that and knocked the first. My guess is that she was just off balance for the second then got into her stride.

 

To get to that point she had to come in the top 3 of one of the 15 qualifiers held all over the country throughout the year. (She won hers against 200 other dogs.) Then she had to go to a quarter final and come in the top half. (She came 2nd or 3rd in that.) To get to the final tonight she would have had to come in the top 10 this morning.

[alligande]

Sounds like she will be ready next time she qualifies.

 

I stumbled on this link to the press release for the Westminster trial. Mix breeds are able to enter.

http://sportsvideo.org/main/blog/2013/12/westminster-kennel-club-and-fox-sports-reach-multi-year-multi-platform-agreement/

[GentleLake]

Mix breeds are able to enter.

 

 

Very cool! That's quite a breakthrough for the AKC.

[mum24dog]

Sounds like she will be ready next time she qualifies.

 

I stumbled on this link to the press release for the Westminster trial. Mix breeds are able to enter.

http://sportsvideo.org/main/blog/2013/12/westminster-kennel-club-and-fox-sports-reach-multi-year-multi-platform-agreement/

 

 

interesting. Are the mixed breeds still segregated in AKC competition? I see that it refers to a "Mixed breed category". Of course we don't have that, we just have dogs.

 

I wonder whether the eventual aim is to use the same Pro Plan model as we have here where you have to qualify to get to the final. We host PPs at our show, 9 in all. Bottom, middle and top grades of all 3 dog sizes against their peers. If they want credibility I should have thought a lottery to enter wasn't the best way to do it.

[gcv-border]

..... If they want credibility I should have thought a lottery to enter wasn't the best way to do it.

In order to enter the lottery, the dogs had to be competing at the Masters level [top level]. (In AKC, the levels are Novice, Open, Excellent and Masters.)

 

Since AKC limits the # of runs per day (a one judge show can offer 330 runs, a two judge show - 660 runs, & so on...), they felt that the lottery was the fairest way to fill the runs. Normally, entry is a first come/first serve basis. In some regions with a dense agility population, everyone overnights their entries so that they arrive at the trial secretary's address on the day that the trial opens for entries --- then because there are usually more entries than runs offered, they resort to a lottery anyway. (I hope I explained that clearly.)

[mum24dog]

In order to enter the lottery, the dogs had to be competing at the Masters level [top level]. (In AKC, the levels are Novice, Open, Excellent and Masters.)

 

Since AKC limits the # of runs per day (a one judge show can offer 330 runs, a two judge show - 660 runs, & so on...), they felt that the lottery was the fairest way to fill the runs. Normally, entry is a first come/first serve basis. In some regions with a dense agility population, everyone overnights their entries so that they arrive at the trial secretary's address on the day that the trial opens for entries --- then because there are usually more entries than runs offered, they resort to a lottery anyway. (I hope I explained that clearly.)

 

 

With a very few exceptions, in KC shows here in the UK only wins at Open, Premier or Champ shows count towards progression. Those shows have to accept all entries so there is no suggestion that the competition could be manipulated.

A win has to be against all the available competition who want to enter the show rather than just those who have got the schedule early and have the means to get their entry in first.

 

We get enough problems with people complaining that they didn't get camping when someone else did. I wouldn't like to have to deal with disappointed competitors as well.

 

We don't really get 1 and 2 judge shows. A small show would be 4 or 5 rings and each judge is allowed to judge up to 450 dogs in a day, but we don't have multiple height changes that take up time.

 

If you take the Crufts Championship class as a comparison with Westminster, our top grade is Grade 7 and you have to get to that level before you can enter a Championship class. You have to win a Championship class during the year (could be up to around 200 Large dogs in the class) to qualify to compete in the Championship class at Crufts. I have lost count of the Championship shows in the calendar but I think it's between 20 and 25, although the same dog may win more than one so the number competing at Crufts can vary.

 

And there have been discussions about imposing a further qualification on Grade 7 dogs to make them eligible to enter Championship classes so that only the current best can do so. That has been shelved for the moment though.

[alligande]

I have to preface this, I do not compete in AKC, what I know about it is from agility friends that do, so please those that do correct me.

 

Pam, AKC is not in general focused on winning, it is a venue that encourages accuracy. Their goal was to open the sport up to as many breeds as possible. The AKC invitational invites the top 10 in each breed regardless of competing numbers. The nationals are based on point accumulation and open to any dog that has enough. The points are a combination of clean runs and placement, and is basically a reward for going to a lot of trials. Even the top dogs need a large number of trials to accurate enough points. I don't think they would want to only have border collies/Shellties/paps at Westminster which is what could well happen if you had to win in, with their lottery system they will get a spread of breeds like you do at all their trials.

[gcv-border]

Yes, I think that alligande is on track with her description of the AKC agility. They try to promote agility for all breeds and have developed a system that does not reward based solely on wins.

 

With regard to limitation of entries, my understanding is (anyone correct me if I am wrong):

AKC - limit to 330 runs per judge per day. I have seen trials with from one to 4 or 5 judges. Entries based on first come/first entered once the trial entry has opened (on a specific date - usually about 2 months before the trial date).

NADAC - also limits # of runs per judge (but I do not know the exact #), but if the trial does not fill, they offer day-of-trial entry. I believe it is also a first come/first entered.

USDAA - no limit to # of runs with entries closing only a week or so before a trial (I think).

CPE and UKI - I don't know the rules here.

 

mum24dog - I was wondering how your system does 'walk-throughs' (what we call them here). Before each class, the AKC system allows for a judge's briefing (1-3 minutes usually), a 13 minute walk-through, then 5 (or 3) minute break before first dog on the line. These generous time allowances probably account for the slower pace of an AKC trial vs. a NADAC trial - where the brief judges briefing is followed by an 8 minute walk-through, at which point the first dog is expected to be ready to run.

[alligande]

I believe NADAC is 500 runs, but it is up to the trial secretary if they will accept day of / late entries. USDAA closes about 2 weeks before, but even there the trial secretary has a small amount of flexibility.

[mum24dog]

mum24dog - I was wondering how your system does 'walk-throughs' (what we call them here). Before each class, the AKC system allows for a judge's briefing (1-3 minutes usually), a 13 minute walk-through, then 5 (or 3) minute break before first dog on the line. These generous time allowances probably account for the slower pace of an AKC trial vs. a NADAC trial - where the brief judges briefing is followed by an 8 minute walk-through, at which point the first dog is expected to be ready to run.

 

 

All handlers are entitled to walk the course at their dog's height beforehand but there is no set time allowed. We work on flexibility to run the day as efficiently as possible. Noone is given a copy of the course in advance except maybe for major finals where walking time is very limited.

 

For example, handlers of Small and Medium dogs in numerically small classes of say 20-50 will often choose to walk the course together with around 5 mins between heights to walk it again if they wish.

 

A Large dog class of upwards of 200 dogs may be walked while the judge is having lunch.

 

A judge's briefing that takes more than 10 secs is a rarity.

 

The class starts as soon as the course is cleared. We have running orders but don't have to run in strict order. The prime rule for ring party is never to have no dog on the line and it can be a fine art, especially if classes are clashing in different rings some distance from each other.

 

When I'm working out the ring plan I try to avoid more that 7 different classes in a ring and of those 7 I would hope to have no more than 2 course changes. Anything that takes time is pared down to a minimum.

[mum24dog]

I have to preface this, I do not compete in AKC, what I know about it is from agility friends that do, so please those that do correct me.

 

Pam, AKC is not in general focused on winning, it is a venue that encourages accuracy. Their goal was to open the sport up to as many breeds as possible. The AKC invitational invites the top 10 in each breed regardless of competing numbers. The nationals are based on point accumulation and open to any dog that has enough. The points are a combination of clean runs and placement, and is basically a reward for going to a lot of trials. Even the top dogs need a large number of trials to accurate enough points. I don't think they would want to only have border collies/Shellties/paps at Westminster which is what could well happen if you had to win in, with their lottery system they will get a spread of breeds like you do at all their trials.

 

 

Our ABC final at Olympia has gone back to it's old way of selecting the top qualifiers of each breed rather than simply the best non BC dogs because the class was being dominated by kelpies. I'd rather see the best dogs and I'm ambivalent about ABC classes generally.

 

That's not to say that I don't want to see other breeds in agility - I do, especially those that are competitive against the BCs.

I want them to be genuinely competitive though, not the beneficiaries of positive discrimination.

 

We have some Crufts finals that depend on points gained in specific qualifiers at different shows during the year and those who can afford to go to more of them are at an advantage. The top level here is far from being a rich person's sport though.

[Jumpin Boots]

We have some Crufts finals that depend on points gained in specific qualifiers at different shows during the year and those who can afford to go to more of them are at an advantage. The top level here is far from being a rich person's sport though.

That is one thing that has always bothered me about yearly point systems, it becomes a trailer race instead of a horse race (I come from a horse background so think of it that way). I just don't have the money, much less time to be gone from home all the time trying to earn points. So I focus on lifetime achievements instead. Ok, vent over

[alligande]

If you subscribe to the USDAA email list, point collecting for qualifiying for Cynosports has been a topic of conversation. Every year there is complaints about the length of the trial, and perhaps it should be harder to qualify, that you should have to attend a regional etc, and every year people point out that most do not have the time or money to be able to go to that many trials. It has also been suggested that AKC trials are pulling entrants away from USDAA as they need the extra trials to qualify and can't do both venues.

[alligande]

When you hear about a dog with MACH 10 etc, you know the owner attends a lot of trials .