WANTED: IDEA'S, ADVISE, OPINIONS

[1sheepdoggal]

Got a boy that has alot of eye, just getting him started, and havent ever dealt with a dog with so much eye before. Pro's, cons? It appears to give the illusion that the dog has pressence and power. But not quite sure what we have to work with yet.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

I have a strong eyed older dog and one thing I wish he had learned early on was that listening, and a correction, won't kill him. All my other dogs are plain workers and although they vary in hardheadedness, they share a natural ability to take a correction as information, rather than punishment.

 

I'm sure someone will tell you that it's important to emphasize keeping the dog moving and I'm looking forward to reading specifics on that. I was also at a clinic where a dog with a lot of eye was being worked, and it was pointed out that the dog should also be comfortable stopping when asked, and then getting right up. Strong eyed dogs can be reluctant to move once stopped. Some people avoid this by just not stopping the dog in the early stages of training. The point I heard made was that if you want to get the dog used to working freely whether getting up and down, or flanking freely, you'll want to start early.

 

I've actually seen this particular clinician make this point on many occasions - it just struck me particularly that time because it was the first time I "got it" - the idea that you can turn a dog's "weakness" into a strength with careful early training. Like, way cool.

[jdarling]

Becca's right. My Zip had a ton of eye when I first started him on stock at about 10 months old. I kept him on his feet and kept him moving every time I worked him for about 3 months solid. In fact, I did that so well, it got to the point where he wouldn't take a down! He's almost 7 years old now and rarely locks up on me. I am also starting his daughter, who has just as much eye as he did. In fact, I took her to a clinic back in February, and the clinician gave me the same advice -- keep her on her feet, keep her moving. It's working great. I've had her out several times now, and the last time -- which happened to be last night -- she was working great and only laid down once.

 

Jodi

[1sheepdoggal]

So would you consider a strong eyed dog as having a weakness because of it? And is there a difference in the two as far as definitions go, in calling a dog "strong eyed", as opposed to saying "having too much eye"

Figured out already, that we're gonna have to keep him moving, and darn! Just when I had gotten a good reliable down on him!

[jdarling]

So would you consider a strong eyed dog as having a weakness because of it? And is there a difference in the two as far as definitions go, in calling a dog "strong eyed", as opposed to saying "having too much eye"

Figured out already, that we're gonna have to keep him moving, and darn! Just when I had gotten a good reliable down on him!

 

Novice Alert! "Weakness"? I wouldn't call it a weakness. You learn to work with it as you would any other trait, I guess. Depending on what type of work I'm doing with the dog, he can go from being strong eyed to having too much eye. For instance, we can be moving ewes and lambs or whatever, and if everyone is moving along just fine, things are good. However, I can "feel" it when his eye is starting to lock up on me. It's usually when he's getting challenged over and over again, or when I'm having him hold the flock away from a gate, and say the gate gets hung up and I stand there for few minutes fixing the gate, when I go to move him again, I generally need to flank him a couple of times back and forth to get him freed up again, but he'll be fine after that. But generally speaking, dogs with a lot of eye won't single off a sheep and chase it to holy high heaven, or lose their head in a tight situation and just start grabbing whatever they can.

 

Yes, it can be a hassle at times, but no, I wouldn't consider it a weakness. I consider him my diaper dog. He saves my a** more than anything.

 

Jodi

[1sheepdoggal]

I hadnt as of yet, begun to consider it a weakness, more over, as a new challenge. Truth be know, I kinda like it, as it does seem to slow him down a bit, so accually, I had considered it sort of a blessing in disguise. I was asking because Becca had mentioned turning a dogs weakness into a strength, and had hoped she would elaborate on how she considered it a weakness.

[jdarling]

I was asking because Becca had mentioned turning a dogs weakness into a strength, and had hoped she would elaborate on how she considered it a weakness.

 

Oops! Sorry ... I missed that.

 

Going back to my crate,

Jodi

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

I have yet to meet any trait in a dog that is a true weakness in terms of something you have to "work around" rather than being a trait that has a good side and a bad side. Many times you'll find a dog that is a combination of traits that works out, in the end, to something one can't work with (or just plain isn't workable). So, the short answer is that it's way too early to call anything in a dog just starting out, a "fault" or "weakness."

 

That's all just semantics. What really matters is correcting the things you see each time you work. In a young dog especially, these will change from day to day and sometimes moment to moment!

 

I have a problem with "My Dog" syndrome. I collect a set of expectations, good and bad, about my own dogs, and then when I work the dog, I work the expectations, not the dog in front of me. That's super bad and I'm trying to get past that, honest.

 

I'm the one out there on the field chanting the mantra, "This is not My Dog. This is not My Dog . . ."

[1sheepdoggal]

Just bringing this back up to the front, didnt want it to get buried just yet. Id hoped to hear a bit more, so will give it another day for those who may have missed it. Thanks.

[Caroline Reichard]

Got a boy that has alot of eye, just getting him started, and havent ever dealt with a dog with so much eye before. Pro's, cons? It appears to give the illusion that the dog has pressence and power. But not quite sure what we have to work with yet.

 

I would make a point to go to on of Carol Campion's clinics. She is very good w/ this sort of pup. I believe she is coming down to northern VA this spring, though I don't know when.

[kelpiegirl]

From what I have heard people talk about, eye can be a sticky wicket. I have heard the term eye used in more negative connotations than positive. Too much eye, and the dog can't get up. So, training is important- keep that dog moving. I have seen dogs get locked up, and that is well, not so useful in a dog. I think to handle a pup with lots of eye, it would be important to train with a really good trainer who has experience with it. Not so sure if I would be for a pup that was slower, and therefore seemingly easier to train, because he had lots of eye. That doesn't wash with me because, again, what I have heard is eye can just increase as the pup ages, and how slow do you want to go?

'Course, this all said from a person who works the veritable road runner of dogs.....

[1sheepdoggal]

I think speeding one up is easier than slowing one down. Speed can come later, after proper work.

Thanks Caroline, I'll keep an ear to the ground.

[kelpiegirl]

On that, in some cases, I disagree.... In my experience, a dog who is fast is too close- push the dog out, dog settles, dog is slower. What are the methods out there for speeding a dog up? Just curious.

 

I think speeding one up is easier than slowing one down. Speed can come later, after proper work.

Thanks Caroline, I'll keep an ear to the ground.

[1sheepdoggal]

I pick up speed with my dogs by using the same commands, but using a more urgent tone, speeding up the way I give the command, and changing up the tone has worked for mine so far.

But this is a young dog, just starting his training. At this point, it is more important for me, to have him working properly, (then I dont need to push him out to slow him down) than it is to have a lot of speed on him so soon in his training.

[1sheepdoggal]

I pick up speed with my dogs by using the same commands, but using a more urgent tone, speeding up the way I give the command, and changing up the tone has worked for mine so far.

But this is a young dog, just starting his training. At this point, it is more important for me, to have him working properly, (then I dont need to push him out to slow him down) than it is to have a lot of speed on him so soon in his training.

Gotta get to work. Hope to hear more later.

[mbernard2424]

>I think speeding one up is easier than slowing one down. Speed can come later, after proper work.

 

I disagree, you can always slow a dog down, but once you've slowed it down, speeding it up again may be difficult. That's the primary reason why I've put Fern up. She's fast and keen and I don't want to take that out of her by slowing her down now. I've heard it said that Novice handlers tend to take too much out of their dogs early on and as such, lessen their chances of being Open dogs.

[jdarling]

I think speeding one up is easier than slowing one down. Speed can come later, after proper work.

 

I completely agree.

 

Jodi

[Sue R]

I collect a set of expectations, good and bad, about my own dogs, and then when I work the dog, I work the expectations, not the dog in front of me. That's super bad and I'm trying to get past that, honest.

 

Becca - Did you write this just for me? I never really looked at it that way and I certainly couldn't have put it into words so well.

[kelpiegirl]

Perhaps what is causing the dog to be slow could be the issue. Is the dog unsure? Then, once the confidence increases, the dog should speed up. Is the dog sticky? That, from what I have been told can be difficult to deal with. Is the dog too careful? That I think would be easier to handle- along the lines of being unsure. I have seen slower dogs working sheep, and it can be a lot of work to speed them up. By slow, I mean not able to cover properly. I personally don't ever want to have to speed a dog up.

[stockdogranch]

A whole lot of eye can certainly slow a dog down. In the beginning, this can appear to be a good thing, as in the dog is not running the stock up your butt or over top of you. A dog with this much eye can appear to have a nice little pace right out the gate (I'm talking the first time or two you work it, on really dogged sheep). But, if not handled properly, you can end up with the dog locking up. The key is, yes, to keep the dog moving, and to get that dog feeling its stock right away. If the dog learns to feel its stock, then you are not artificially stopping it or slowing it down, in other words *making* it be right. It's got to find that on its own, and I'd be switching it to lots of different groups of sheep--I'd definitely use some bigger groups, and I'd mix up how heavy vs. light the sheep are, too. I wouldn't keep a dog like this on really dogged sheep hardly at all, as the dog might get in the habit of just strolling along behind them. The dog needs to learn to push the sheep--needs to know that *it* is what's making them move.

 

A

[Pipedream Farm]

It's really hard to know what's going on without seeing it. People mean a lot of different things when talking about eye. Is this dog just starting out in a small area? My current youngster BJ would go to the pressure and just lie down when I started her using puppy sheep. She had simply figured out that the sheep were just going to follow me so why should she leave the pressure spot? She doesn't get sticky at all anymore --but she definitely reads pressure. I started working her with large groups of weaned lambs because she would really have to think and react to keep them to me. As she got more confidence, she stopped lying down altogether even with more dog broke sheep.

Renee

[juliepoudrier]

Darci,

Several things about a dog with a lot of eye. I would keep it on its feet and moving. Twist didn't have a solid lie down for several years (some would say she still doesn't), and it certainly didn't hurt her ability to get to the highest levels. If you've ever watched Lark work, she automatically lies herself down, which can be good and bad. As I attribute that behavior to a bit much eye, I try to discourage it and keep her on her feet as much as possible. When I started her, she had a habit of stopping short as soon as she made "contact" with the heads. I had to work with her a bit to break that, and she doesn't do it anymore. I would never have tried to slow her down when starting her out because I think that would just have encouraged more eye to come out. As I've noted before, extreme control in the beginning isn't always the best approach. Second, as discussed before you need sheep that will move toward the handler and not cling to the fence, as the latter will just exacerbate the eye problem. Third, you need to work larger groups of sheep to help break the eye and free the dog up some. The best thing I did to free Twist up was work cattle--since they don't bunch together, the dog is forced to be more free flanking and rely less on eye for control. A large group of sheep would have a similar, though less pronounced, effect.

 

Personally I would rather have to slow a dog down than speed it up. Yes, you can use more urgent commands to get a faster response/reaction, but I would hate to have the dog's default be slow and in constant need of speeding up vs. the other way around (I think most open handlers would rather "ride the brakes" than have to encourage the dog forward all the time). We spent a lot of time with Twist as a youngster speeding her up. She's faster now, and I can't imagine what she'd be like if we hadn't worked for the speed early on. We'd probably time out on every course (when we do time out it's generally because of the wide outrun eating up time). Slowness in a dog with a lot of eye is a *bad* thing IMO because it's the dog's eye that's slowing it up, and that isn't the reason you want a dog giving you a slower pace. Allowing slowness in such a dog will just bring out the eye even more, which will hurt you in the long run.

 

Pros and cons of dogs with eye (and I'll admit that I prefer a dog with eye over a loose-eyed dog, although too much eye is a problem, as we all know), and I'm sure that others can find good arguments as to why the same traits I mention also do or do not apply to loose-eyed dogs:

1. I find that in my experience dogs with eye make good shedding and penning dogs--the balance that eye gives them and their use of that eye enables them to help with these tasks with minimal input from the handler. I like that. The downside is that sometimes they don't want to flank off the balance point (i.e., release the pressure) when asked.

2. The dogs I have had with eye seem more capable of doing nice silent gathers, though there's not a lot of call for that in trialing.

3. I find that a dog with eye can have more finesse in tricky situations with flighty sheep, for example, such a dog will know that just a slight turn of the head is all that's needed to release enough pressure to defuse a situation. Of course some may say that this response is really more just good stock sense, and it is, but I think a dog with eye will more readily give that kind of subtle pressure or release without body movement.

4. Dogs with a lot of eye may be drawn in to their sheep on the outrun and so stop short, as soon as they catch a sheep's eye.

5. Similarly, dogs with eye can be read by stock as being more confrontational, with the result that the stock will more readily turn and fight (that is, stock will more readily turn and fight a dog that's trying to move them with eye than one that's not).

6. Dogs with a lot of eye can be slow to respond to flanking commands that require them to break the eye contact and move off the pressure.

 

I'm sure there are others that I haven't thought of, but I'm sure the comments I've made here will provide some fodder for further discussion.

 

J.

[Shoofly]

cling to the fence, as the latter will just exacerbate the eye problem. Third, you need to work larger groups of sheep to help break the eye and free the dog up some. The best thing I did to free Twist up was work cattle--since they don't bunch together, the dog is forced to be more free flanking and rely less on eye for control. A large group of sheep would have a similar, though less pronounced, effect.

 

You can also accomplish this by working goats, they act more like cattle. If you don't have any, just buy a few weanlings and work them awhile, then sell off. The young ones are way better for dogs anyway.

[stockdogranch]

The best thing I did to free Twist up was work cattle

 

I ABSOLUTELY agree! And that's what I really wanted to say, but often, people don't want to put their dog on cattle.

 

A

[mbernard2424]

In the beginning, this can appear to be a good thing, as in the dog is not running the stock up your butt or over top of you.

 

Running stock up your butt or over the top of you ... what's wrong with that????

 

I rented sheep on my way home from a trial in GA on Monday and after about 20 minutes of getting run down by sheep I decided my seven-month-old fiend was getting put up until she could handle more pressure. I haven't been run over by sheep in some time now and forgot how pleasant it was ... not! My sheep at home are not terribly broke so they don't run up over me like these broke sheep did.