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Telling the difference between Okra and Okay


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My dogs and I have been working on stays and impulse control. I am always using weird words to test their release cue :) they love this game and are very good at it. We have used a lot of "o" words but today one hung us up, "okra" which is hard for obvious reasons. These guys are very smart (not trying to brag, as it has nothing to do with me at all) and generally learn a new concept within one or two goes at it, but in this case they were still confused after about 5 tries (I mixed in a ton of successes to not lose confidence). My question is it too hard?? By BC Artoo did seem to figure it out, but he wasn't confident in his new learning as he would realease himself and then stop before eating the treat just in case he was wrong (what a good boy right?!? LOL) the Aussie wasn't sure and refused to leave his stay at all because at that point he thought okay and okra were the same word and he wasn't allowed to release :( if this is too hard I don't want to confused them, but if this is doable than I would love to further their learning. Thank you so much, any advice is appreciated!!

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I will be interested in what others have to say, but I would be inclined to let it drop as both words are so similar sounding, they are two words a human could confuse and it is not an important thing to learn. My concern would be in breaking the real releae word. The caveat is I am a fundamentally lazy trainer and if I think a dog is struggling I look for a different approach unless it is a foundation skill they have to learn.

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Dear Doggers,

 

We sheepdoggers take pains that one whistle is utterly clear and unlike any other. At best they "drift" over time and the dog must adapt. Why deliberately confuse any important command so the dog won't understand it if you have bronchitis?

 

Donald McCaig

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I agree. How often are you using the word okra in every day life while your dogs are in a stay? It is good to test/proof a stay, but it seems tedious an almost pointless to purposefully confuse them for the sake of training. A good release word is also 'break' as it does not get mistakenly spoken in every day speak like 'okay' does. I would let this go, and continue to proof the stay in other ways and reward for longer duration.

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I agree. How often are you using the word okra in every day life while your dogs are in a stay? It is good to test/proof a stay, but it seems tedious an almost pointless to purposefully confuse them for the sake of training. A good release word is also 'break' as it does not get mistakenly spoken in every day speak like 'okay' does. I would let this go, and continue to proof the stay in other ways and reward for longer duration.

Thanks for the input! And yes, "break" would have been a better release word choice but unfortunately I didnt have that foresight when I trained the boys... next time though!

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The sound in both words that stands out is the 'k' sound. If you're enunciating every syllable very clearly, with the same inflection/tone every time, and there is no background noise at all, you might be able to teach them the difference. Otherwise I think you're setting them up for confusion.

 

Using very different-sounding words to test their understanding is a better idea.

 

Ruth and Gibbs

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I would not use two cues that start with that very distinct "OH" sound, and especially not two that have "Ok" at the beginning.

I take great care to try to make my cues sound distinct, unless the cue is clearly supported by a distinct physical cue at all times.

 

When we got Bandit, we actually named him Diego. Within a few days, when we spoke to Dean, calling him "Dean Dog", he looked away when he heard his name! He had figured out that "Di" from "Diego" did not mean him, and he tuned out his own name.

The puppy's name was changed immediately. It helped that Diego was really not resonating with us for him, but even if it had, we would not have kept it.

I do the same with cues if I realize that I have chosen one that is too similar to another and it is confusing the dog.

It is interesting to me that Bandit has no trouble distinguishing between "Ban", which I often call him when speaking to him, or even his full name "Bandit", and "Ben" which is my husband's name, but he doesn't have any problem. Sometimes it's hard to predict when one thing will sound too close to another for the dog to distinguish.

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I find that my dogs get confused if the first soundS are similar. My dogs DO not WILL not come to names other than their own, even with the first letter of other dogs the same like Griz and Grace or Meg, Miles, Moses. But I took a dog in for training - Mae. My Meg is none to pleased since the new girl needs "direction" more and Meg looks at me like "Why are you talking to me like that?"

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Maybe my brain's half asleep but I'm not sure what is trying to be achieved here.

 

For us the everyday release word is OK and for agility Go which is more specific.

 

Dogs understand context and I don't start out with the idea that my dog will get confused. I assume he won't but if he did I'd deal with.

 

I'm a lazy trainer too.

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OK (or should I say Okra?), I agree with the lazy trainers. No need to work this to death. I don't think it is necessary to train for every single contingency. I mean, how many times will you mistakenly say Okra when doing agility?

 

I also like to use distinct sounding words for commands.

 

I was all set to name my dog Cuff when I got him as a pup about 2.5 years ago. The breeder pointed out that Cuff might be a bit confusing with the Come Bye command.

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I agree. I try to avoid commands that are too similar, because I feel like intentionally trying to confuse the dog is setting them up to fail for no good reason. One example is for freestyle I was trying to teach a behind position and I was going to use 'rear', but I quickly learned 'rear' sounded a lot like 'here' which means come towards me in agility. So my dog would just stare at me because she couldn't get any closer to me. Instead of fussing over it I just changed my word to something else.

 

I can see proofing a release word with things you might say accidentally, but how often do you say okra?

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Maybe a bit off-topic here, but I think "OK" is a really bed choice for a release command. It comes up too much in normal conversation, and this can lead to disaster. Not the starting-before-they're-supposed to on a sports field kind of disaster, but a dog-on-a-sit/stay-on a busy street-corner kind. I use "free" as a release command. But you could make a case for any word that doesn't come up too often in normal converse.

 

You can change commands too. It's a little work, but sometimes it's worth it. People change dogs' names all the time, and I've never seen it be a problem - even with a dog that's not the sharpest spoon in the drawer.

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Maybe a bit off-topic here, but I think "OK" is a really bed choice for a release command. It comes up too much in normal conversation, and this can lead to disaster. Not the starting-before-they're-supposed to on a sports field kind of disaster, but a dog-on-a-sit/stay-on a busy street-corner kind. I use "free" as a release command. But you could make a case for any word that doesn't come up too often in normal converse.

 

You can change commands too. It's a little work, but sometimes it's worth it. People change dogs' names all the time, and I've never seen it be a problem - even with a dog that's not the sharpest spoon in the drawer.

 

Agreed and yet it is so ingrained in my head after 20+ years I still find myself using it.

 

I don't really have a problem with a conversational okay being mistaken for a release, though, because I tend to say it in a high, singsong way thats not replicated with the word how its used in general conversation. Also because my dogs, I think, understand when its meant for them because of context. When I release them I am looking back at them, and they are usually waiting for me to engage with them. Others do not release my dog from a stay when I put them on it.

 

But yeah, lots of better choices.

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Agree with Rushdoggie. OK release is not said in the same way as in conversation for me and my dogs know it.

 

It all boils down to what works for individuals. My dogs are most likely to release early when they think they've missed a verbal cue in a noisy environment and they follow my body language instead. That starts to get more frequent with advancing age and their hearing is failing.

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I don't really have a problem with a conversational okay being mistaken for a release, though, because I tend to say it in a high, singsong way thats not replicated with the word how its used in general conversation.

 

Ditto. That inflection can really make quite a difference to a dog.

 

Bodhi's trained to hold a treat on his nose and wait until he's released with an "OK" to flip and catch it. Kids at the elementary school where he works as a reading therapy dog love to learn to do this trick with him at the end of our reading sessions (it's a reward for them to be able to do it with him themselves, too!).

 

When I first stared teaching kids how to do the sequence, Bodhi often wasn't responding to their release cues and would just sit there balancing the treat on his nose, or else he'd miss catching it because he was worried he hadn't really been released to do so. Yet when I'd say it, he'd toss and catch the treats. It took me a couple of goes to realize that the kids weren't using the same inflections when they said "OK" as I was. I used a rather high pitched voice in a very upbeat tone. Their "OKs" were all over the place in pitch and intensity. Once I figured that out and explained it to them, Bodhi started performing his trick more consistently with them, much to the students' delight. Now that he understands that not everyone will say the release word precisely the same way, he's also become much more accommodating and seems to understand that it's the word, not just the inflection that's the release. E.g. he still won't release on the word "Go!" when the kids sometimes forget their cues, but will catch the treat even if the "OK" is delivered deadpan.

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I have not found that using OK in everyday conversation has affected its strength as a release. Nor that my dogs hear "OK" in everyday conversation and start releasing from whatever they are doing. Dogs understand context - sometimes better than we do.


My husband and I talk about our dogs in front of them all the time. We say their names in conversation to one another constantly. And the dogs don't get up and come to us or anything when we do that. Sometimes one of them might look at us with interest, but they clearly understand the difference between being spoken of and spoken to.

But the dogs can still tell when they are being spoken to and respond to their names accordingly.

I have found conversational "OK" to work in much the same way. The dogs ignore it. Or, if anything, maybe look at whoever said it with interest.

The only place I have had an issue with "OK" as a release is in class where I might say "OK" to an instructor who has just said something to me and I inadvertently release my dog.

And then we all laugh, the dog gets a treat for responding correctly to the release, we set up and start over.

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Yeah, I'm with the others. Dogs are good at context and tone. If I put my dog at the start-line or otherwise put them in a stay, walk away and say 'okay' (or okra) to myself because I'm thinking aloud, yeah, I MIGHT get a release since they're geared up and waiting for it and listening really really hard. If I say 'okay' while talking to someone else, no. My dogs know when I'm talking to them vs. about them.


Heck, I can tell one dog to sit and have them do it while the others ignore, either because there's a name tag (Kylie, sit) or even because I'm pointedly looking at the dog I want to sit. I can certainly tell my husband to 'go lie down' (which is a cue for the dogs to find somewhere comfortable and get out of my way) without the dogs doing it.

 

I just don't see the kind of confusion people are talking about in reality like... ever.

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Never believe that your dog will not one day do something you don't expect. One day you could be wrong and it's up to you to judge each situation for potential danger. Even if it weren't illegal here to have a dog off lead on a street corner (and rightly so) It's not something I would risk, however well trained I thought my dog was.

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Never believe that your dog will not one day do something you don't expect. One day you could be wrong and it's up to you to judge each situation for potential danger. Even if it weren't illegal here to have a dog off lead on a street corner (and rightly so) It's not something I would risk, however well trained I thought my dog was.

 

I don't believe my dogs will never release unexpectedly, but my dogs aren't off leash in dangerous situations, *anyway*. The worst outcome of them deciding to release unexpectedly re: word confusion or anything else (deciding to chase a cat/rabbit/squirrel/deer/bird, being startled, whatever) is the dog getting somewhere they were going to be going anyway sooner than I expected or a lost Q.

 

With or without word confusion I wouldn't be leaving my dogs in a stay, waiting to cross a street or as a means to keep them out of another dangerous situation! Ever, ever, ever. I can not even IMAGINE the mindset of someone that would have me relying on a stay and release to keep their dog from running into the street. Nor do I want to.

 

I don't care if it's the best trained dog EVER, it's a DOG. Also it's public and if the release is that touchy, someone could walk by on a cell phone and say whatever that obscure release word is. Or literally endless other things to send the dog into the street and traffic, that have nothing to do with what word is being used.

 

(Which is to say: Yes, what you said.)

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I have always gone with choosing a release word that will be highly unlikely to come up in normal or even abnormal conversation. For years now I have used "gecko" as a release word for that reason. I have to tell others, such as the person who stays with my dogs when I go away, to use that word, of course, because they won't release to "OK" or other things that people use. I proof it occasionally with words that sound somewhat similar, but they know it solidly, since we use it a few times every day.

 

On the other hand, of course I would never rely on a word cue to keep my dog(s) out of danger, unless it were in a completely unexpected and unlikely situation. Most people I know use "free" or "release" or "OK". I've not heard of anyone who uses "OK" having a serious problem with it, although I do know of a few instances in which someone's dog released an obedience stay when someone nearby released their dog using the same command.

 

If a person has tragic consequences as a result of their dog releasing on someone else's spoken word I would submit that the tragedy came about not because of the cue word used, but due to the owner or handler neglecting to take the proper safety precautions with the dog in that situation.

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https://thecognitivecanine.com/2016/12/28/the-proof-isnt-in-the-proofing/

 

This popped up on my FB and made me think of this thread.

 

Love this! I am a big fan of Sarah.

 

I am lucky enough to participate in a "proofing" class that is done the way Sarah suggests, with slowly increasing distractions and setting the dogs up for success. Its so much fun, and I swear you can see the dogs "getting it" and being confident and happy. I swear sometimes my dog says "hahaha, you can't trick me!" and is so happily working. I love it.

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