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I have heard that mental maturity comes between 2 and 3 years of age. Is this generally true of border collies?

My dog will be 2 in August, and I'm having a hard time with him - mostly a lack of focus when I ask him to do things and absolutely no self control around people. He goes nuts trying to get pets and attention if someone so much as looks at him.

I'm kind of at my wit's end trying to cope with these things. He is highly diciplined otherwise.

I'm wondering if his age might be adding to my struggles, or should he be old enough now to keep himself composed? I've had him since he was 9 weeks old.

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I have seen some changes for the better since Tilly has turned one year old

But by no means perfection.

I have a good friend who trains Labs.

I asked him to give me some help I was starting to think she had hearing problems. He was watching her and I during a training session and he said it was purely a lack of focus.

I have started putting her on the leash and then proceeding to the door in a heel. I make her sit while i open door and then sit outside while I close the door. I then walk in a heel for a little while when she is focusing well on the walking then start with remote downs off leash ect

As soon as she seems to be losing focus back on the leash

This helped me with Tilly because it gets her focused on me instead of butterfly's and strange noises.

I don't know if this might work for you but it has helped me

Dan and Tilly

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Impulse control can be taught. If you search the boards or the internet in general for impulse control exercises you'll find good training ideas and games. Control unleashed has great game ideas too. I don't see how age will make him less excited to greet new people but being calm for greetings is something you definitely can teach. Impulse control games are always fun-asking for him to wait for a release for food, going out the door, getting out of the car and whatever else excites him. Ask him to wait and show control before you give him what he wants (greeting people too). "Nothing in life is free" may also be helpful for you and your guy.

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Ruby was a year old when we adopted her from the shelter. I worked steadily and consistently with her for two years, never having her attention. Then when she turned three, suddenly the lightbulb went on an she was my partner! She is ten now, and to this day people who see us work together comment on how attentive she is.....so keep on keeping on!

 

Kathy Robbins

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I think it is not the age that will settle them....directly. I think it is that around that age, they have had enough teaching, repeating, proofing, practicing, exposing and simply experience for them to have gotten it.

But, I do believe that they need the guidance that is provided by an attentive and caring owner to learn in that time. I find that I can only address the things I acknowledge or come to understand at needing attention.

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Impulse control can be taught. If you search the boards or the internet in general for impulse control exercises you'll find good training ideas and games. Control unleashed has great game ideas too. I don't see how age will make him less excited to greet new people but being calm for greetings is something you definitely can teach. Impulse control games are always fun-asking for him to wait for a release for food, going out the door, getting out of the car and whatever else excites him. Ask him to wait and show control before you give him what he wants (greeting people too). "Nothing in life is free" may also be helpful for you and your guy.

^^ This!

 

I do tons and tons of impulse control work with my boy who sounds remarkably like yours. He's also just about to turn two years old and loses his mind when people come up wanting to pet him.

 

Being in a very similar situation (a two year old dog who can get over.the.top excited in a split second) I try to do a LOT of work with my dog out in public. Pet stores didn't work for us because, between all the wonderful smells and the prospect of getting a cookie on the way out, he'll go over threshold before we get through the door. :/ We have a Home Depot nearby that we train at a lot and we also will take him to food places that have outdoor seating to work on impulse control around people in public situations.

 

My boy still struggles the most when people are clearly approaching him to say hi. He wants to jump up so badly to give them kisses but knows he's supposed to sit. This often results in what I call the "Hover Butt" which involves him technically sitting but wiggling so much that he's literally moving around like a hover craft. People see us walking calmly through the Home Depot and then when they approach my well trained dog begins to act like a hyper child who has consumed too many pixy sticks. They always seem surprised to see the sudden transition. :rolleyes:

 

 

.....so keep on keeping on!

 

I think this^^ is what it boils down to. Even though my boy is still making mistakes he's way better then he was when we first started. I'm sure people thought to themselves "why does she bring that dog out in public!?!?" in the beginning, but practice makes perfect... or at least sets you on the path. :)

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Thanks for the responses. He is actually pretty remarkable at controlling himself around everything except people. I can put him in a down stay at the park with dogs sniffing him and running about and he won't move. But if a person were to approach all bets are off.

It's been very hard to work with him because I live in the city where idiots see us coming and start calling or making noises from a mile away, or just run right up without warning and it sets him off. Strangers are also not helpful if I ask them not to pet him until he sits. They stand too close, or they keep petting after he breaks his sit, or they baby talk him as I'm trying to give him commands.

Anyway, that's only half of my problem though. It just seems like his head is in the clouds most of the time I am trying to work with him. He can be sitting calmly, but looking all around and giving me the cold shoulder. I swear sometimes he turns his head just to say "I'm not listening!" like a stubborn child.

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It's been very hard to work with him because I live in the city where idiots see us coming and start calling or making noises from a mile away, or just run right up without warning and it sets him off. Strangers are also not helpful if I ask them not to pet him until he sits. They stand too close, or they keep petting after he breaks his sit, or they baby talk him as I'm trying to give him commands.

 

It is really, really tough when you can't be in control of the situation. I feel your pain... I've been there more time then i could count.

 

It's probably been almost a year ago now, but I had a bit of a melt down moment in the Home Depot when a man insisted he didn't mind my dog jumping all over him, even wrapped Camden up in a big bear hug and just loved on him like crazy. My dog was on cloud nine... I, however, was furious. I'd been working so hard to teach Camden not to mug people but I kept having set backs when strangers would encourage it. This guy kept saying "Oh, I don't mind, he's so sweet, I love dogs! Oh, he's fine!!" . Out of nowhere I blurted out that the dog had nearly knocked down my elderly mother-in-law on several occasions because of this behavior and that, while he might think it's fine, she could be seriously injured if the dog continues to greet people this way.

 

I have no idea what prompted me to say this. It was an out and out lie... but it worked. ;)

 

The guy let go of Camden, insisted that he sit for a few more chin scratches and then was on his way. I've used this lie since then and it gets the same response! It's strange... I think people just don't think about the consequences of the behavior. They like that the dog is super excited to meet them and lose sight of the big picture, ignoring the owners requests in the process. I guess the point of my story is that if you can find a quick and effective way to communicate to people how important it is that your dog greet them calmly (maybe say he's training for therapy work?) it might give you a bit more control over the situation.

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I personally wouldn't lie about training for therapy dog work. It seems kinda unethical. Just says he's in training and leave it at that.

 

*shrug* I'm not saying you lead with the lie. Ideally the person asking to pet your dog will heed your instructions to only pet the dog while it's sitting or at least not jumping. But if you've asked them nicely and they are just ignoring you I think a small fib is perfectly justifiable.

 

FWIW I tried the "he's in training" line countless times and I never had anyone take it seriously. The alternative is to quickly shuttle yourself and the dog away from them, which would probably come across as much more rude or hostile in that moment.

 

I'm curious, do you dislike the idea of telling a stranger a lie or is it the therapy dog lie specifically that bothers you?

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Right now a LOT of people are lying about their dogs being service dogs to gain public access when it would otherwise be denied. Business are catching on and there is a huge backlash right now. If that trend continues, people who actually need service dogs will have a much harder time. They already are being illegally kicked out of businesses.

 

Many don't know or understand the difference between a therapy dog and a service dog. It's better to be honest, even if it seems rude in the moment, than lie and endanger the rights of others.

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I'm curious, do you dislike the idea of telling a stranger a lie or is it the therapy dog lie specifically that bothers you?

The therapy dog part bothers me (I'd be equally bothered if you used SAR dog in place of therapy dog). Like Liz pointed out, the general public doesn't really know the difference between therapy dogs and service dogs and abuse of service dog laws is pretty widespread right now. So I think that anything that resembles that to the public should be avoided.
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I know this has gone way off topic (sorry OP) but I just wanted to say those arguments for not lying about the dog being trained for service/therapy are pretty reasonable. I honestly didn't realize there was widespread abuse of people claiming their dogs are service animals to get access otherwise denied to a pet.

 

As I said, I use the" frail mother-in-law" lie as a last resort when someone is blatantly ignoring (and sometimes outright defying) my requests to not encourage my dog to jump on them. I suggested the service dog training excuse because it seems like it could be a quicker explanation during a brief encounter but I guess that fib has more ramifications then the one I use...

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I put my hand out, and say, "No, thanks, I'm working on a specific issue/behavior/trick right now, and I need to stay focused on that/have him remain focused on me/be quiet/remain lying down." If the person pushes it, I say, "Sorry, I need to go." And I do, to get away from such a rude person!

 

When I extend my hand it is right at the level of the person's face, especially for children. I keep my hand outstretched until I see that the person is responding. If it is a child, I also say, "thank you for asking so nicely."

 

The addition of the hand seems to work magic, as does the walking away.

 

Ruth and Agent Gibbs

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Well, when I use the training-for-therapy-work line, it's not a lie. I do therapy dogs work and am still hoping to get my overly exuberant 2.5. year old to that point someday (not that I'm confident she'll ever get there :rolleyes: ).

 

But I, too, am aware of (and resent) the unethical labeling of dogs as service dogs when they're really not, just so people can take their dogs anywhere.

 

Just yesterday someone was questioning me about someone he'd met with an 8 week old miniature dachshund puppy that was going to be sent away for 8 weeks of training to become a service dog! (This person wasn't buying it; that's why he was asking me.) I'm not aware of any service dog training programs that can train a dog in 8 weeks. The only thing I can maybe stretch to believe is that it'll be an emotional support dog for something like PTSD (they guy was a veteran) and the dog needs obedience training. But I'm still leery.

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Dear Doggers,

 

Agreed that lying about service dogs is unethical. Back to the original question.

 

As a rule sheepdogs are emotionally mature by 2 1/2 years. You can hurry the process by breeding the bitch (though what you do with a litter from an untried dam I'll leave you to decide.)Breeding the male delays maturity.

 

If you encourage puppy behaviors (playing with other dogs, greeting every human stranger) you'll delay maturation. If you excite the dog to motivate it(High, shrill chirps, the "goopddoggooddoggooddog" litany, you'll delay maturation because every second you keep the dog in a state of hyperexcitement is time he isn't using his mind.

 

The best learning window is between 8 months and 30. But that learning should be matched to the dog's maturity. If not, you'll get the rare "Too good too soon" pup who'll dazzle you at a year and can't do much when it's four.

 

Finally: experience of the world is the dog's buffer. If you keep the dog in a bubble (except for very protected circumstances) he'll mature slower and unevenly.

 

My new Jake, age 28 months, was until two weeks ago a kennel dog. Now, in the house, he snatches my slippers and socks. He's a mature worker but a baby in the big world.

 

Donald McCaig

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Saying your dog is in training for therapy dog work because someone is being clueless toward your dog on the street or in an indoor location which allows all dogs is one thing. Telling people that you dog is in therapy training to gain access to no-dogs places is another.

 

If you are not telling a lie about your dog to gain access to a place it has no legal right to be, then you are taking an unfair advantage which may in fact have negative fallout for service dogs and their owners. But if you are telling some person this on a public sidewalk, etc. then in my opinion you have the right to say anything that works to keep some jerk from behaving inappropriately with your dog.

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Saying your dog is in training for therapy work won't get you access to anywhere dogs aren't normally allowed to go, other than where therapy dogs are invited. Therapy dogs are not allowed the pretty much unlimited access that service dogs are.

 

Lying about training your dog for service work in order to gain access is, imo, the same as misuse of service dog status to gain access to otherwise dog free areas.

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As for the mental maturation thing - think a lot of times our dogs reflect our mindset in their own. A no-nonsense owner doesn't usually have a fawning, goofy dog. People who have the "Disney" mindset are naive, and often silly. I've actually met people who didn't know what sex a pup or kitten was because it would be "so rude to look." (!) They commonly reward puppy-like behavior and don't believe that their dog would ever be so "mean" as to bite. And it often shows in the dog.

 

Some folk love the whole roly-poly puppy thing. Everything must be cute and sweet. But puppies are simply young dogs. If you treat a dog in an age-appropriate way, it will grow up and act like a dog, not a cartoon character. A pet can get away with being a sweet fool all its life, but a working dog must grow up, and shed puppy ways with its puppy fur. The time at which that happens is probably as much about nurture as it is about nature.

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If you treat a dog in an age-appropriate way, it will grow up and act like a dog, not a cartoon character. A pet can get away with being a sweet fool all its life, but a working dog must grow up, and shed puppy ways with its puppy fur. The time at which that happens is probably as much about nurture as it is about nature.

 

This is something I wonder about often. Like the OP I have a dog that is just about to turn 2yo. To me that still seems pretty young so I do allow him some puppy-like behaviors. For example games (fetch, chase, tug, etc.) are still really fun and excitement is encouraged. I wonder at what age it's appropriate to phase this sort of thing out entirely. I want my dog to enjoy his young life but I also don't want to stunt his growth.

 

Sunday, you did mention in an earlier post that your dog is highly disciplined in many ways but that he lacks impulse control when people are involved. It sounds like, all around, he's doing well this is just an area you need to work at a bit more then the others. I think, like people, dogs can have things they are really good at and other things they struggle with. I just wanted to point out that you have yourself said that overall he's doing pretty good... I know from personal experience it can be easy to focus in on what they're terrible at and all the stuff that's going well can be taken for granted. Keep at it, it really does sound like you're doing a great job!

 

As for neutering I have no clue if it would effect his behavior/focus. I had my dog neutered waaaay too early in retrospect. Knowing what I know now I'd have waited until he was 18-24months old. By age they should be done growing and, as I understand it, neutering becomes much less of a health risk.

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I have a dog that may forever be a puppy. I like a serious dog, I treat my dogs like grownups, she's been around serious dogs but she is now 5 and I'm starting to think that she's just going to be sweet and goofy. Focus and self control has helped but at the end of the day she gets the blissful "this is what life is all about" look in her eyes from relaxing in a lap rather than working. She was a rescue so breeding is unknown. And she was spayed at 6 m/o so maybe that contributed. I'm thinking she might be switching from SAR dog in training to Therapy dog in the near future.

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I think maturity is often a very individual thing. My best working border collie was never a baby. I got her at 6 weeks old (yes, that was more "normal" then), her ears came up to a full prick a couple days later and never varied a bit after that, and she was always a very mature little dog. She could be very silly her whole life, but she was never really a baby, ever.

 

I currently have a 2.5 year old BC (I think) lurcher who I despair of ever maturing. :rolleyes:

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