New "schedule" Toby wants to keep

[Izzysdad]

Hi All,

 

Over the past 6 months Toby has decided that breakfast should get earlier and earlier when DW is home. This past week he started trying to wake her up at 2am. At first we thought he had to go out to pee but nay, he wants to eat . Before this week he started at 4:30am. If I tell him lie down he will for about 30 minutes and then starts in again. Most times I don't even hear this happening and DW just gets up and feeds the other two, lets them out and goes back to sleep.

 

Once he is fed, he'll sleep till noon. Here's the catch. If DW doesn't spend the night at home he never wakes me up. Last week she was at a friends bachelorette party and we slept till almost 8am!

 

What he does is he lays on DW, she'll tell him to get off and this repeats till she finally gets up.

 

This habit needs to be broken.

 

What we have tried is breaking their meals into three a day, bfast/lunch/dinner but this has not helped.

 

He also very much a routine dog, more than Izzy and Zoey. He starts asking for dinner around 3pm, at 9:30pm he jumps on my lap for cuddle time till 10. So basically we needs ideas on how to break this middle of the night routine.

 

Thanks!!!

[Sue R]

My question is, "Do you have a crate?" My comment is, "If you do have a crate, use it!"

 

We went through a period where one of our dogs was a too-early riser, and felt that I should be as eager to be up as he was - it was nothing to do with being hungry or needing to go potty. This dog just likes to greet the day early on and expects me to feel as excited about a new day as he is.

 

Most of the year, his chosen rising time is fine and all the dogs sleep in our room on dog beds. But sometimes, when the clocks change for instance, and I need him to readjust his schedule to match my new schedule, I will just crate all of them for maybe just a few nights. Their crates are not in the bedroom, by the way. This is one alternative for you.

 

Another alternative, also involving use of a crate, is that when he gets up into bed and disturbs your wife the very first time each night, he is removed from the bedroom and crated. He may quickly learn that bothering her at the wrong hour will result in something other than what he wants. He has learned well that if she doesn't get up the first time, all he needs to do is continue this unwanted behavior and he will eventually get what he wants, just like a nagging child who has learned that pestering his/her tired mother will eventually get her to give in to his/her demands.

 

And another thought is the food issue - by breaking his meals into three times a day, you are reducing (I'm assuming) his supper meal and he might be feeling hungry sooner. You might consider going back to two meals but making the supper meal the larger of the two.

 

And my last thought is exercise and mental stimulation - does his exercise and mental stimulation (training tricks, for instance) routine vary at all depending on whether or not your wife will be home? Do you maybe do less with him when she's home and so he is less tired physically and mentally those evenings/nights?

[GentleLake]

The dog's done a very good job of training your DW.

 

 

Another alternative, also involving use of a crate, is that when he gets up into bed and disturbs your wife the very first time each night, he is removed from the bedroom and crated. He may quickly learn that bothering her at the wrong hour will result in something other than what he wants. He has learned well that if she doesn't get up the first time, all he needs to do is continue this unwanted behavior and he will eventually get what he wants, just like a nagging child who has learned that pestering his/her tired mother will eventually get her to give in to his/her demands.

 

^^All of Sue's advice is great, but especially this.

 

Probably what I'd try first is to just tell him no and go back to sleep. If that doesn't work, then I'd try crating him when he wakes her up.

 

And I agree that breaking up food into three feedings may be backfiring. It's quite possible that one larger feeding may leave him feeling more satisified than 2 or 3 meals.

[Shetlander]

When the demanding behaviors don't get reinforced, he will stop waking you up. It may be unpleasant to deal with for a couple mornings, but then you will have much less disturbed sleep. I agree with all the above advice and that breaking his food into more meals is unlikely to help and may make the matter worse. This doesn't sound like real hunger but a smart dog who loves food and has patient, cooperative people. I am not friendly about having my sleep disturbed, so my dogs all learned quickly to let the sleeping person lie. :-) Still, the almost 15 year old Sheltie no longer tolerates my sleeping in. However, she has earned that right by her advanced age and I obey her summons without comment. As deaf as she is, she wouldn't hear a word I said, anyway.

[terrecar]

This is very good advice. I know from experience because it worked quite well for me. In my enthusiasm to insure that Hannah got the required exercise (that Border Collie warning thing), I had initially set the expectation for early morning walks and/or runs. So, Hannah would be ready to roll in the morning, even if I were not feeling physically up to it. It only took a few times of putting her in her crate in another room so I could go back to bed before she figured her expectation would not be met. Of course I still provide her with the exercise she needs, it is just at my discretion

 

 

ETA: I forgot to mention that I would take her out for a quick potty break before I crated her, just to make sure that wasn't the issue.

 

Another alternative, also involving use of a crate, is that when he gets up into bed and disturbs your wife the very first time each night, he is removed from the bedroom and crated. He may quickly learn that bothering her at the wrong hour will result in something other than what he wants.

[Gloria Atwater]

Definitely crate the little rascal! Give him a chance and tell him No, but if he comes back, just get up and (nicely!) put him in a crate well away from you and your sleep. No fuss, no anger, just matter-of-factly put him away. He totally has DW trained.

So, don't feed ANYbody before you're ready. Our dogs have a set dinner time, but breakfast is whenever we get around to it. Might be 6 am, might be 9 am. They don't get to say when.

As others have said, if the dog doesn't get the response he wants, but instead gets a response he does NOT want, he'll get over it. It might take a few days, depending how stubborn he is, but keep after it. Good luck!

~ Gloria

[Izzysdad]

Thanks all. I have thought of the crate, and mentioned it but DW wasn't thrilled, so as much as I can I'll try to convince her this is the way to go. He is VERY persistent when he wants something, no one around here has experienced this with their BC have they?

 

Exercise/mental stimulation wise they all get a good amount. He's a ball nut so he gets a good amount of ball play and he is good with entertaining himself. Plus we work on new skills. There was a period where he would chase you around with a soccer ball and even throw it at you with his mouth and I would put the ball on top of the fridge with this behavior. It didn't take long to curb that nonsense

 

These are all good tips and kinda where I was headed with my thought process!

[Gloria Atwater]

Seriously, if it's done right, a crate is not a bad thing. In this case, yes, it's somewhat punitive, but two of my three dogs still sleep in their crates, albeit with the doors left open. But the point here is to break an unwanted behavior. It's a temporary measure until he remembers, "Oh, right, we SLEEP when it's dark."

Besides, I think it's good to teach a dog about crating just in case he's ever injured or ill and requires temporary confinement.

Please do let the Dog Mom know that this is not locking him a cage forever! This is just getting a bad idea out of his head, because believe me, he's capable of making this his sleep pattern for the rest of his life, and you do NOT want to go there. That he's physically lying on her to get her out of bed is just plain rude, and there is no reason to put up with that.

The dog has her trained. Now she needs to train him. Removing and crating him would not be a permanent thing, it's just breaking a bad habit!

~ Gloria

[mbc1963]

That sounds familiar.

 

My dog will every once in a while ask to go out at 1 or 2 in the morning. Now, he's a good dog and can hold it forever, so I often assume that because he's asking, he must have a digestive issue. So, I get up and let him out - carefully checking the yard for skunks, and monitoring him closely so he doesn't bark and disturb the neighbors. But the thing is... the next night, he decides he needs to go out at 1 or 2 in the morning again. And the next night. I definitely feel he's testing the waters: "She let me out last night, so this must be OK now! I'll ask again tonight!"

 

I just end up saying "No!," sending him to his bed, and sucking up the whining and fussing that goes on for a few minutes. That puts the pattern to rest for 4 or 6 or 8 months.

 

Mary

[Sue R]

What Gloria (and everyone else) has said!

 

Crates are not cruel - they are a training device that utilizes the dog's own comfort with a "den" of his/her own. Sure, it takes training for a dog that hasn't been trained but it provides multiple benefits - for the dog that has to be transported or kept at the vet's or otherwise on strict rest; in situations like this where it is a training tool; in emergency situations; for safety issues in certain circumstances.

 

I felt the same as your wife - I did not want to put my dog in a "box". Two out of three of ours seek out their crates for rest and quiet (for the one, it's a comfort and secure zone when there is a houseful of grandkids). Two have used them for rest and recovery from injuries and surgery. One has flown from the DC area to San Diego via Seattle, and back again, twice - if he hadn't been crate-trained beforehand, I'm sure he would have been totally anxious. As it was, he settled in and enjoyed the flight. When we travel, we use crates in rental houses and relatives' houses, when we can't be right there monitoring the dogs. Crates have many uses and crate-training offers many advantages.

 

Give it a try. I think you both will be pleased with the results but you will also have to train him to the crate. There are many topics on these boards that deal with effective ways to do that.

 

Very best wishes!

[Shetlander]

Crates are a godsend for so many reasons. My dogs all love their crates and often choose to snooze in them of their own accord. Some say never to use the crate as punishment or in this sort of scenario because the dog will learn to dislike the crate. That just isn't my experience though the vast majority of times I send a dog to his crate, it is routine and almost always reinforced with a small cookie. I think if you mainly use the crate to punish or in this type of situation, then, sure your dog would end up not liking his crate.

 

Here is the thing. It generally works best if you are comfortable and confident with the technique you are using. If you feel bad about crating, think it is cruel, etc., it will undermine your efforts. I used to teach a parenting class and talked about needing to be able to live with the consequence you choose for your child. Otherwise you are more likely to end up not enforcing it and inconsistency contributes in a big way to reinforcing whatever behavior you were seeking to change. So you and your wife need to decide what consequence/technique you will feel comfortable using. Or continue to get up in the middle of the night to see to his Lordship's desires. ;-) Another thing I would remind parents, the great thing about a chronic problem is you have plenty of opportunities to fix it. So if you don't feel you handled it right, you will get lots more chances.

 

My long winded point is you don't NEED to crate. You simply need to not reinforce his unwanted behavior. Like the way you put his toy up so he couldn't pester you to play with him. I never had a dog be so pushy about waking me for something like this, again probably because my dogs quickly figure out I am so not fun to wake up. Dogs are very clever in figuring out what works for them and what doesn't.

[juliepoudrier]

Well, your DW has two choices: continue to allow him to disturb her sleep or do what's necessary to break the habit. If she isn't willing to crate or otherwise retrain him, then she gets what she gets, n'est-ce pas?

 

J.

[Izzysdad]

We have had Tobey 4 years now, he came as a two year old. He was crated for I think a year. He started off crated for several months, then we tried him without the crate when we were gone for short periods and he chewed some things, so back to the condo he went. So I agree the crate is a good thing.

 

Last night we were out much later than we usually are ever really. Went to bed around 1am, he tried to get up at 4:30 but I heard him this time, told him to chill and go back to sleep. I got up at 7:30 with everyone so he for sure listens to me.