Red and White BC's

[Dragoon 45]

I know genetics are often times hard to explain. And I have just a basic understanding of genetics. So I will try to relate the following as best I can and then ask the question that has me somewhat puzzled.

 

I have a friend, a small rancher, that I served in the military with. I have known the man for better than 20 years. He runs cattle and uses BC's for his cow dogs. He does not trial, these dogs are first and foremost working cattle dogs. Three years back he bought a male and female, both ABCA registered, the male from a respected breeder in the area and the female from another breeder in South Texas IIRC. Now three years later his first litter of pups show up. Out of five pups, three are Red and White. Both Dam and Sire are classic Black and White dogs and neither line has produced a Red and White dog for at least 4 generations according to the information he has. Now my friend has no interest in what color the dogs are, just can they work. But he was expecting all Black and White pups and from his investigation of the dogs' bloodlines prior to purchasing them, that was what all the evidence suggested he would get.

 

So that leads me to my question. How probable is it that a Red and White Pup/Puppies will show up in a litter from Black and White parents with no history of Red and White in their lines? I am trying to understand the genetics of this. If I understand it correctly, Red is a recessive gene. And my basic understanding of genetics would lead me to believe that after four of more generations of black and white on both sides of the bloodlines, that recessive Red gene would be more or less gone from the bloodline.

[Liz P]

It can hide for many generations since it is recessive. I wouldn't be too worried about it as long as he trusts the people he bought the parents from.

[Gideon's girl]

There is no number of generations that would make a recessive gene disappear. If both parents have the recessive gene, then 25% of the puppies should be red, 50% should be black but carry the red gene, and 25% should be black and not carry the red gene.

[Dragoon 45]

Both dam and sire are very good to excellent working dogs. He has no issue with their herding ability. He was just very surprised that many red and white pups showed up in one litter.

[Gideon's girl]

My red and white is a very serious tough minded dog. He makes me wish I had more than a few goats and 1 steer.

[Liz P]

"Mother Nature doesn't read the text books."

 

I recently had a litter of 5 puppies. Not one female in the bunch. I was exhausted when they arrived so thought I must be mistaken. I kept checking them to make sure I hadn't missed my desired female pup. You don't always get the ratios that math predicts, which can really suck sometimes!

[Gideon's girl]

Yeah, I've noticed that for statistics to work, sometimes you have to have a sample of a thousand or so. How many dogs have had a thousand puppies?

 

Micah came from a litter of 8, 2 males and 6 females. He was the only red, the rest were black and white. Neither parent was split faced or even had much white, not enough to even claim to have classic markings. His mother was heavily ticked, but he only has about 5 freckles other than his left ear. Genetics are pretty weird.

[simba]

There's some weird psychological effect that people are not wired to estimate probability, so we see patterns. If we get a set of random numbers with three 3's in it, we think it's not really random- when it would be less likely to have a pattern of random numbers with no 'weird' things like that at all.

 

You'll get 50/50 average (probably) across a thousand litters, but there's a 1/32 (I think) chance of all boys out of five. Not terrible odds, especially when you think of the number of litters out there. Why it's invariably all boys to the person who wants a female, no-one knows.

[juliepoudrier]

I believe the common explanation for why red remains in the working population (even though there is prejudice against red dogs) is precisely because it can remain hidden for many generations....

 

J.

[MossyOak]

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