Advice needed! My dog attacked my arms last night

[JamieL]

Hi all. This is my first post here. I'm feeling so helpless right now as my dog suddenly bite my arms last night and I really need advice.

 

Here are the background. I have a 2 yo BC boy that has been with me since he was 3 month old. We have a strong bond I'd say. He loves me and would follow me everywhere. He is overall affectionate, playful, sweet but can be very sensitive. He can be triggered by something and suddenly changes into a ferocious dog.

 

He has a history of being aggressive to dogs(we have been working on it and we saw progress). But to people, its something new. I mean there was once that he picked some bone from the ground and showed aggression when my boyfriend tried to remove it. But he didn't really bite. During feeding time he ALWAYS wait until someone says "Okay" before eating. But it'd be a different story if he finds the food himself. We got help from a trainer and she said our dog's EQ is too low. She suggested us to perform obedience training on a daily basis and I'd say he has been doing a great job.

 

Last night, I saw a tiny grasshopper on the floor and so did my dog. He immediately rushed over and I, worried that he might kill the poor little thing, pulled him from the back (a really bad decision). He turned around and viciously bite into my arm. I mean, instead of attacking ME it was the ARM he was aiming at. I was so shocked by the attack that I was just standing there. It happened in a blink and he stopped suddenly. It was like he realized that was me he was attacking. He turned around and slowly walked back to his crate. I saw that his lips was twitching a bit, like he was in shock too. After the accident I ignored him. But after a while he just came toward me and asked for attention like nothing happened.

 

The injury was not serious though. It did cut through the skin but not very deep. But the harm he did to my arm is far less than that to my feelings. I have been using positive reinforcement to train him and I'd say he is kinda obedience (at least he always come when called and do what I asked him to). I read online that if a dog attacks people, chances may be that dog has genetic flaw. My BC is black and white but has one blue eye. I was told that it means his gene is not stable and better not reproduce (so I neutered him half year ago). Could it be the reason? Or it was just because I did something wrong with the training?

 

I'm feeling so stressed and helpless now. I don't know how to deal with this. Please give me some advice.

[teresaserrano]

From what you say, it sounds very much like an instinctive reaction.

 

A few years ago I found a pup, about 5 mo, but a big one, wandering the streets, and I kept her for a few days until I found her an owner. One day I needed to leash her for some reason, and I had little time and she was happily playing catch me, so I stupidly grabed her as she passed running. Of course she turned around and bit me.

 

She didn't hurt me, and I was able to recognize the reaction for what it was: an instinctive reaction, not so much aimed at hurting me but at freeing herself.

 

If your dog had been with you for a relatively short time, I would say, instinctive reaction from a dog that doesn't yet understand the rules of dog-human interaction. Just teach it to him.

 

But as he grew up with you, it's different, although I would definitely not classify him as bad and dangerous based on that one incident. I would, though, increase his obedience training, play lots of self control games, and specifically teach him that human skin is sacred no matter what. I teach that in a lot of ways I suppose, in day to day interactions. I play lots of games where the dog might accidentaly touch my skin with his teeth, like tug,and make a big show of yelping and stoping the game when that happens.

 

I would also work on the I'm-touching-your-whole-body game. Does he have problems with being groomed? With people touching him in some places? Even if he seems all right with that, I would intentionally desensitise him to you handling him and touching him all over. Make it fun.

 

You say you two have a strong bond, but still I would work on making it stronger. If your dog believes not only that you're the sun and the moon and the source of everything good, but also that you're the great wizard of the universe and your decisions are always wise and to be trusted, it will be a very difficult thing for him to bite you, even if instinctively.

 

Lastly, could he be in pain? Either because your grab hurt him, or because he might have something you haven't detected yet that causes him discomfort and pain? Most dogs in pain WILL lash out, and it says nothing bad about their temperament, it's just how it is.

 

Oh, and I don't believe that his eye colours have nothing whatsoever to do with it. Or, by the way, that different coloured eyes constitute any sort of genetic fault. They're actually pretty common in bc's.

[gcv-border]

Your dog biting you was your fault. He was in an excited state already, and he just reacted without thinking. You should analyze his reaction in the context of the situation. Some handling you can get away with when he is in a quiet state, but if agitated, I would never (if I was thinking rationally) try to manhandle my dog.

 

I agree with the above ^^^ about desensitizing your dog to being touched/grabbed by you. I play a game with my dog where I will grab (very fast motion) at their collar. If he doesn't move, he gets praise/treats. I am trying to teach him not to back away if I go to grab at his head/collar. One never knows if he is in danger, and I need to pull him away with his collar, I don't want him avoiding my hand - which he would do instinctively because most dogs do not like a hand coming at their head so fast. Get your dog used to being touched/grabbed (gently at first) in different places on his body - which should hopefully reduce his reactivity the next time a similar situation happens - but remember to think about his mental state when agitated and realize that his reactions will be amplified.

[Camden's Mom]

Really great advice so far!! I just wanted to add (based on your story about his reaction to your boyfriend trying to take the bone away) that it sounds like you a re dealing with a bit of resource guarding here as well.

 

I'd play impulse control games with him that teach him not to automatically go after food on the ground. "It's Yer Choice" is a good program that teaches impulse control around food at all times (not just at feeding time).

 

You could also use a similar method to teach a formal "Leave It" command if you haven't already. This way if you see the dog going for something you could tell him to "Leave It" instead of reaching out to grab him.

 

Patricia McConnell has some good tips for dealing with (and recognizing) resource gauging in this article:

http://www.patriciamcconnell.com/theotherendoftheleash/resource-guarding-treatment-and-prevention

(Also, a search on these forums will probably yield some good results regarding resource guarding.)

 

Resource guarding is a complex issue for me personally... I don't like to harass or pester a dog while it's trying to enjoy a bone I gave it. Having said that, if I can't take an item away from my dog without tensions getting high I feel as if I have an issue. From a few of the comments you made in your original post I'd suggest you at least read up about resource guarding and determine if it's something you need to work on with him as well.

 

Just wanted to add, definitely (as other have suggested) work on the handling, touching, collar grabbing, etc. in a controlled situation so that if it happens in a high stress situation he's less likely to react with something as serious as a bite.

 

I imagine you must be very distressed about what has happened. I think forming a training game plan and sticking with it will be the best thing for both of you. Given the seriousness of the situation (an attack on the owner that broke skin) I'd encourage you to enlist the help, guidance and advice of a qualified trainer (perhaps the person who helped you with some of his other issue?).

 

Best of luck and please keep us posted on how things are going...

[D'Elle]

Good advice from everyone above. Especially important to teach a "leave it" command, and also to work with the dog on being able to take something from his mouth without his getting upset about it.

 

But mostly I want to let you know that, although this was clearly very upsetting to you, it is not by the longest stretch an indication of there being anything wrong with your dog. It was a misunderstanding. He was excited and focused on the grasshopper, and did not realize it was you grabbing him until it was too late. As you now know, you should not have grabbed him like that. I have had very similar things happen to me, and always considered it to be my own fault, and have learned better from it. Most importantly, don't let it damage your relationship with your dog.

Whoever told you that one blue eye in a border collie indicates "his gene is not stable" was an idiot.

[rushdoggie]

Wow, what a scary experience.

 

I am not going to tell you it is your fault. I think its a reasonable expectation that I can take my own dog by the collar and not get bit. If you had been a stranger, or there had been a fight happening and you reached in, well then maybe yeah I could see that.

 

It does sound like he might have redirected at you, which is a problem. He bit you hard enough to break your skin when you grabbed him.

 

He does sound like he could have a resource guarding issue which you can address with training.

 

But I don't think biting your arm when you tried to keep him from going after a bug was resource guarding,

 

Its very hard to give good advice on an internet forum without seeing the dog and incident in question. But I will give you the advice to see a vet asap and get a work up, and then you might consider seeing a veterinary behaviorist.

[Camden's Mom]

I am not going to tell you it is your fault. I think its a reasonable expectation that I can take my own dog by the collar and not get bit. If you had been a stranger, or there had been a fight happening and you reached in, well then maybe yeah I could see that.

 

I just wanted to agree with this^^ statement. There have been a lot of "it's your fault" responses so far. I'd be willing to agree that there might be some shared responsibility but mostly I'm with rushdoggie. I think an owner should be able to reach for their dog in just about any situation without worrying about sustaining a bite from the animal.

[Donald McCaig]

Dear Doggers,

 

Please be careful when offering help in a dog bite situation.

 

The Poster didn't say she "grabbed him by the collar" she said "He immediately rushed over and I, worried that he might kill the poor little thing, pulled him from the back (a really bad decision)."

 

Big difference.

 

I do agree there's not much here to worry about but further training is indicated. By the by, when I am taking a fresh bone from one of my guard dogs it's always tense and if the guard dog has just killed it himself, I wouldn't dare.

 

Dog focused on living prey. Sudden attack from behind. Probably won't offer a kiss.

 

Donald McCaig

[rushdoggie]

Dear Doggers,

 

Please be careful when offering help in a dog bite situation.

Which is exactly why I suggested that she get some in person help.

 

The Poster didn't say she "grabbed him by the collar" she said "He immediately rushed over and I, worried that he might kill the poor little thing, pulled him from the back (a really bad decision)."

 

And I understood this to mean she grabbed him by the collar, but Mr. McCaig may be right and the OP may in fact have meant that she grabbed his back with her hands (but in truth, either way, I still would not expect a skin breaking bite).

 

Its also a good example of how different people read different things into a written description and why its important to have someone knowledgeable in person to help the OP to asses the issue.

 

It may turn out to be minor, nothing and easily resolved with additional training.

 

Or, it may be more serious and intervention is needed immediately before someone gets hurt.

[gcv-border]

Well, I am going to say that it was mostly your fault - for not reading the situation correctly and reacting inappropriately for the level of 'training' your dog may have had. We all make honest mistakes. Nothing wrong with that. Use this as a learning experience.

 

I agree with the advice above about desensitizing your dog to sudden movements by you and being 'grabbed' by you. I have worked with my dog so that he does not recoil when I reach for his collar - which is a natural instinct for any dog. My hope is that if he is ever in danger where I need to grab his collar to pull him away, he allow me to do exactly that rather than snapping at me or recoiling away, possibly into danger.

 

You should also learn to read the signs that indicate your dog is in a heightened state on anxiety and adjust your behavior accordingly. I do think that his reaction about a little grasshopper was a bit over the top. Maybe he is just a more excitable dog.

 

If you do not feel that you can deal with his behavior by yourself, I agree that working with a behaviorist should help you understand what happened and how it may be prevented in the future.

 

Good Luck.

[GentleLake]

I do think that his reaction about a little grasshopper was a bit over the top.

 

I'm not sure the reaction was so much over the grasshopper (i.e. resource guarding), but would be more inclined to think it may have been an extreme startle response.

 

Unlikely there's any way to know now, but I agree that he needs desensitization to handling and also work with resource guarding. Since there's already been at least a level 3 bite (http://ezinearticles.com/?Learn-the-Six-Levels-of-a-Dog-Bite&id=1109747), I'd strongly suggest consulting a veterinary behaviorist, or at the very least and Certified Animal Behavioral Consultant. If this happens to someone else, there's a good chance the dog will be confiscated and euthanized.

 

And, yes, whoever told you the blue eye indicated a genetic flaw is an idiot.

 

Best wishes working through this.

[highway61]

And, yes, whoever told you the blue eye indicated a genetic flaw is an idiot.

 

Just last week I was talking to a chap (he's a Brit) who has two BCs that mine was playing with at the local school yard and he was telling me Sammy's mismatched eyes (complete heterochromia) are often referred to as "wall eyes". Then he googled that on his phone and asked if Sam was crazy, one of the characteristics according to whatever source it was he found. I said "never been any doubt about that". We both laughed...

 

[Maxi]

 

Just last week I was talking to a chap (he's a Brit) who has two BCs that mine was playing with at the local school yard and he was telling me Sammy's mismatched eyes (complete heterochromia) are often referred to as "wall eyes".

Yup, some of the old time shepherds in the UK don't like blue eyed dogs because they think that dogs like this can't see as well as dogs with brown eyes. I guess this may be where the myth that blue eyes being a genetic problem for working BCs originally comes from.

 

But personally I've seen some top working and trial dogs with at least one blue eye...so like the others already said, it is nothing to worry about

[JamieL]

Thank you so much everyone. All of them are great advice. You wouldn't know how much it means to me to see so many supports! I will pull myself together and make a good plan to deal with the problem.

 

First off I might have to clarify one thing that I forgot to mention in my post - I wasn't pulling the collar but his lower back. He is always fine with the collar.

 

I agree that it was my fault. And lesson learned (in a hard way)- never grab an excited and focused dog from behind. I think the better way would be to first redirect his attention. My dog did nothing wrong. He was just following his instinct. But also I agree that "an owner should be able to reach for their dog in just about any situation without worrying about sustaining a bite from the animal." So I also blame myself for not being able to train my own dog appropriately. I definitely need a new training plan and consult a trainer as well.

 

The grab wasn't hard and I'm sure that wasn't hurting him at all. But I guess what makes it worse is that he always hates being touched around his butt. Before he'd run away as soon as I started to groom/clean his lower part of the back. I have been correcting it by making grooming and bathing time fun with treats and praises. Now he still doesn't like it but he would accept it.

 

I think based on all the advice I have got so far, impulse control and desensitization to handling are what I should work on now. I'll do what the "It's Yer Choice" video shown and the suggested training from above, and also do my research before I can find a qualified trainer, as it can be hard to find one here in Hong Kong China.

 

Thanks to you all I have a direction now. I'll definitely keep on posting.

[JamieL]

 

Just last week I was talking to a chap (he's a Brit) who has two BCs that mine was playing with at the local school yard and he was telling me Sammy's mismatched eyes (complete heterochromia) are often referred to as "wall eyes". Then he googled that on his phone and asked if Sam was crazy, one of the characteristics according to whatever source it was he found. I said "never been any doubt about that". We both laughed...

 

 

What a beautiful dog Sammy is! Funny that My boy Dexter has his blue eye on the other side.

 

 

After I was told about the blue eye I did some research. Surprisingly there were some articles saying besides Merle BC, blue eye in BC is a sign of albinism, which is a genetic flaw. Well I couldn't care less though, as long as my dog is healthy and I'm not a breeder. What worried me was what I read from the internet that aggression in dogs could possibly due to genetic problem. But apparently I was just being paranoid about it.

[gcv-border]

Quote: "Surprisingly there were some articles saying besides Merle BC, blue eye in BC is a sign of albinism, which is a genetic flaw."

 

Do you remember where you read that? It sounds like it may have come from a website that focuses on showing and conformation (i.e. breeding dogs to a standard). Since these Boards are devoted to the working border collie, appearance is not important - the ability to work is (important). If a blue eye(s) do not affect the level of work, it is disregarded.

[highway61]

 

What a beautiful dog Sammy is! Funny that My boy Dexter has his blue eye on the other side.

 

 

Likewise, they do look alike! I'm commonly asked why he only has one blue eye. I tell them I couldn't afford it, two was out of my network

[GentleLake]

Yup, some of the old time shepherds in the UK don't like blue eyed dogs because they think that dogs like this can't see as well as dogs with brown eyes.

 

I doubt there's any issue with blue eyed dogs not being able to see as well, but blue eyes can be much more light sensitive than brown, as there's no pigment to filter out bright light. (Ask me how I know -- I have blue eyes.)

 

Years ago there was a Virginia trialler (his name is escaping me at the moment) who had a red dog with one blue and one brown eye. He said the dog would often close the blue eye when he was working on a bright day.

 

So there may be some basis for the shepherds' dislike of blue eyes.

[Alchemist]

First off I might have to clarify one thing that I forgot to mention in my post - I wasn't pulling the collar but his lower back. He is always fine with the collar.

 

I agree that it was my fault. And lesson learned (in a hard way)- never grab an excited and focused dog from behind. I think the better way would be to first redirect his attention. My dog did nothing wrong. He was just following his instinct. But also I agree that "an owner should be able to reach for their dog in just about any situation without worrying about sustaining a bite from the animal." So I also blame myself for not being able to train my own dog appropriately. I definitely need a new training plan and consult a trainer as well.

 

The grab wasn't hard and I'm sure that wasn't hurting him at all. But I guess what makes it worse is that he always hates being touched around his butt. Before he'd run away as soon as I started to groom/clean his lower part of the back. I have been correcting it by making grooming and bathing time fun with treats and praises. Now he still doesn't like it but he would accept it.

Ummm... I respectfully disagree. If my dog is hyperfocusing on some kids throwing a basketball around, and I speak his name, and he blows me off (ignores me), I'm apt to grab his butt hairs. It may take him by extreme surprise - perhaps to the point where he turns around intending to bite an intruder until he discovers it's just me (and perhaps your dog reacted before discovering it was "just you") - but i want him to respect the fact that I requested his attention, and that he turn his head in my direction in response, BEFORE I need to resort to extreme provocation, like grabbing his butt hairs to ensure his attention.

 

All of my dogs' body parts belong to ME. I can touch any of them when I please, WHERE I please. Rub their chests when they're eating their kibble, pull their butt hairs when they're looking at kids throwing frisbees if they ignore my calling their names, pick up their feet to trim their claws... there are NO circumstances when I feel it's OK for them to tell me "hands off!!!"

[BCjetta]

My first dog was like that. If she was focused intently on something and either a person or another dog touched her back end, she would whip around and snap or bite out of surprise (or sometimes redirected aggression). We got her at a year and she died at 16. She never changed this behaviour - we just had to not surprise her like that. Her general intent was to snap but on 3 or 4 occasions she did make contact with the arm and in 2 cases punctured skin. She wasn't great with other dogs and was a bit predatory to other animals. She was moderately anxious and suspicious. She did not like any type of threatening behaviour towards her (staring at her, standing over her, reaching hands down to her, other dogs head over her body anywhere etc etc). She was also "sensitive" to any pain which I think made her react in that way more.

My next 3 dogs will whip around if we surprise them in that way but they are not automatically aggressive. I'm sure if it wasn't me or my husband, they would then snap once they saw it was actually something scary.

[JamieL]

Do you remember where you read that? It sounds like it may have come from a website that focuses on showing and conformation (i.e. breeding dogs to a standard). Since these Boards are devoted to the working border collie, appearance is not important - the ability to work is (important). If a blue eye(s) do not affect the level of work, it is disregarded.

 

Well the source's in my language and they are a breeding group. And they mentioned that blue eye in BC has something to do with Collie Eye Anomaly. Actually as I said I don't really care about what eye color my dog has as long as he is healthy.

 

 

All of my dogs' body parts belong to ME. I can touch any of them when I please, WHERE I please. Rub their chests when they're eating their kibble, pull their butt hairs when they're looking at kids throwing frisbees if they ignore my calling their names, pick up their feet to trim their claws... there are NO circumstances when I feel it's OK for them to tell me "hands off!!!"

 

I shared the same thought before this accident. It was the first time he showed aggression to my handling. I think I really have to start doing basic training all over again. Luckily, he's always responsive to my calling. It happened twice that I stopped him by calling him back before he got into a fight with other dogs.

 

 

She wasn't great with other dogs and was a bit predatory to other animals. She was moderately anxious and suspicious. She did not like any type of threatening behaviour towards her (staring at her, standing over her, reaching hands down to her, other dogs head over her body anywhere etc etc). She was also "sensitive" to any pain which I think made her react in that way more.

 

It sounds almost like my dog, just that he's fine with those "threatening behavior". We often play stare contest and I'd sit on his back or even lay my head on his stomach. I can hug him like he's a teddy bear. We have been so close and that's the reason why this incident really caught me off guard.

 

 

I started the "leave it" training yesterday and within 3 trials he got the message. I also touched him all over occasionally. He still showed a bit reluctance when I reached his end part. Guess it takes time and patient.

[Donald McCaig]

Dear Doggers,

 

Ms. Alchemist writes: "All of my dogs' body parts belong to ME. I can touch any of them when I please, WHERE I please. Rub their chests when they're eating their kibble, pull their butt hairs when they're looking at kids throwing frisbees if they ignore my calling their names, pick up their feet to trim their claws... there are NO circumstances when I feel it's OK for them to tell me "hands off!!!"

 

Many years ago, my first sheepdog Pip had just come in from rainy, manurey work, been hosed off and toweled but was clearly pretty miserable. He collapsed on a blanket on the bed where my wife woke him with a hug. Pip bit her face. As we discovered the next morning, his 12 year old body was shot through with cancer and we had him killed.

 

In pain, did Pip have a right to bite? If your dog is hit by a car, might he snap at the person picking him up? Ever break up a dog fight? Unbitten?

 

Dogs are dogs before they're Our Dogs. Forget at your peril.

 

Donald McCaig

[simba]

Somewhat OT but related to Donald McCaig's post- I believe dogs have the right to bite, snap, or growl under some individual circumstances, even if they're in the wrong or if they draw blood (though not probably a wound needing stitches). Sometimes I feel like I'm alone in that belief.

 

Maybe it's the fact that I have/have had terriers? Chicken and egg there I suppose.

[Sue R]

I think there's a difference here - you say that you've already said your dog's name and he is "blowing you off" which is not the same as being unaware that you are present and trying to interact with him. My impression in this case is that the dog was not aware that the owner was trying to get his attention, call him off, or approaching him - that the grab, to him, was unexpected and totally out of the blue, as he was focused on something new and intriguing. When my dogs see something "strange" that captures their attention, they are much more likely to react skittishly to something else unexpected in their environment.

 

And, yes, I can touch my dogs anywhere but they are also aware of what I am doing which removes the unpredictable factor of surprise and instinctual self-preservation.

 

Just my opinion, and in total agreement with Roxanne and others who have called this a "startle response".

 

 

Ummm... I respectfully disagree. If my dog is hyperfocusing on some kids throwing a basketball around, and I speak his name, and he blows me off (ignores me), I'm apt to grab his butt hairs. It may take him by extreme surprise - perhaps to the point where he turns around intending to bite an intruder until he discovers it's just me (and perhaps your dog reacted before discovering it was "just you") - but i want him to respect the fact that I requested his attention, and that he turn his head in my direction in response, BEFORE I need to resort to extreme provocation, like grabbing his butt hairs to ensure his attention.

 

 

All of my dogs' body parts belong to ME. I can touch any of them when I please, WHERE I please. Rub their chests when they're eating their kibble, pull their butt hairs when they're looking at kids throwing frisbees if they ignore my calling their names, pick up their feet to trim their claws... there are NO circumstances when I feel it's OK for them to tell me "hands off!!!"

[Eileen Stein]

I agree with Gentle Lake that this was a startle response -- he reacted reflexively to being grabbed before he realized you were the grabber and meant him no harm, and immediately desisted when he saw what he'd done. Too bad you were bitten, but this is not an occurrence that would worry me greatly. Not all dogs would have done it, but many dogs who are not problem dogs could have done it. The kind of training you're doing in response to it seems appropriate to me, and promising. I would not be seeking out a trainer or behaviorist over it, unless there are other signs of trouble. It was a natural, if undesirable, reaction, but it sounds like it taught both of you a lesson.

 

It always surprises me that the advice to find a trainer or behaviorist is given routinely, as if there could be no possible downside to it. There IS a downside -- the risk that the trainer/behaviorist will not be good, and the owner who is doubting her own competence will not have enough knowledge or self-confidence to realize it, and damage to the dog or the dog-handler bond will result. In some cases, it's obviously worth taking that risk, because professional help is clearly required. But on these facts, if you are in Hong Kong and it's hard to find a good trainer there, I would say -- FWIW -- just continue working with him as you are now and in the meantime be aware that he could startle and snap if he's grabbed out of the blue when his attention is strongly focused on something else.

 

BTW, I'm not familiar with the term EQ -- what does it mean?

 

And regarding the side issue -- blue eyes have nothing to do with Collie Eye Anomaly.