Fear Aggression

[MommaLove]

Juno was very shy when we brought her home from the breeder, and we spent a lot of time and effort carefully introducing her to new things. Within a few weeks, she had come out of her shell and she seemed to be socialising very well.

 

Fast forward a couple of months, and enter puppy class. Prior to puppy class, Juno had been coming everywhere with us and was exposed to many strange dogs without issue. On the first night of puppy class, Juno sort of freaked out about the other dogs, yapping and lunging at any who came near her. She's been to three classes, and is becoming more reactive.

 

At Tuesday's class, the trainer put a Gentle Leader on Juno, suggesting that it may help to calm her by letting her know that I was in charge. It did help a bit, but Juno was still trying to lunge at one dog in particular. Since class, the Gentle Leader hasn't seemed to make a difference. (I should mention the class is a clicker training class.)

 

Now, my sweet pup who just a few weeks ago would happily go anywhere with us, is having fear aggression issues when we go out. After the first puppy class, Juno started lunging at strange dogs out in public. She was ok on our vacation, as long as I paid close attention and demanded her attention on me when I saw other dogs coming near. Now that we're back, she seems more reactive than ever. She has also started reacting to men by backing up and growling, which never happened prior to puppy class.

 

I know the age Juno is at is the second fear period/stage (4mos). The trainer doesn't seem to have much help and insight to offer, beyond the Gentle Leader. I really want to take care of this before it becomes a real problem - our family is very active and our dogs come with us to a lot of busy places, and I really don't want to have to leave Juno at home for aggression issues. I'd also like her to be able to relax around my dad, who we visit several times per week, and who she was totally comfortable with until recently.

 

I've been with Juno every single time she's gone out in public, and I can say without a doubt that she has had NO frightening incidents with men or other dogs. Even at puppy class, there was not a specific incident that triggered her fear - just the whole environment and all the other dogs seemed to scare her. We've worked really hard to make her encounters with new situations very positive, to bolster her confidence.

 

I really want to do right by Juno and don't really know how to move forward from here. I have plenty of tricks up my sleeve for dealing with fear and insecurity, but the aggression is something I haven't really had to deal with before. Any help is appreciated!

[gcv-border]

Aaarrgghhh! The Gentle Leader! I think that the GL can help (and I have read many responses on these boards that recommend it and that indicate it helped their dog), BUT I think it has to be used in an appropriate situation - and fear aggression is NOT one of them IMHO.

 

I am sorry to hear that your trainer 'made' you use a GL on Juno. I am not surprised to hear that it may have exacerbated the situation. About 10 years ago, I was in an agility class with my ~15 year old rescue dog who had an incident where she rushed another dog (CKCS). Her intent was misread by the owner of the CKCS (who was actually doing something that the instructors had told everyone NOT to do). To make a long story short, the owner lodged a formal complaint with the training club, and one of the instructors (who supposedly knew herding breeds - my dog is part Sheltie) decided that a GL was the solution. As a result, my dog (who had fear issues anyway) was totally turned off of agility.

 

I think you will get great advice on these boards.

 

My short response is: go back to square one and start treating her for paying attention to you when in challenging situations. You may also have to control the level of challenge that Juno is exposed to. With your father - have him sit or stand still and throw treats at Juno when you walk her past (far away in the beginning and then gradually closer). At the puppy class, you may have to start keeping Juno as far away as possible from the rest of the class (below her threshold level) and treat her for calmness and paying attention to you. Again, gradually move closer as she remains calm. [i know of someone who had a very fearful dog. Her first 8-week obedience class was spent outside as the dog was too fearful to even come in the building - so she just stayed outside at first, treated a lot and gradually worked her way into the building and eventually the classroom. The dog was able to participate in class after 2 8-week sessions where the owner and dog just worked on getting the dog comfortable with the building, the classroom and the general atmosphere.

 

Good Luck,

Jovi

[Pam Wolf]

check out the puppy book by Brenda aloff it is very good, other resources are Dog Star daily (it's free online) and books by Ian Dunbar or Patricia McConell

This sort of problem needs to be handled proper ly or it can be a lifelong issue (Patriaia had one of these), yet if dealt with early and properly it works out great

[MommaLove]

check out the puppy book by Brenda aloff it is very good, other resources are Dog Star daily (it's free online) and books by Ian Dunbar or Patricia McConell

This sort of problem needs to be handled proper ly or it can be a lifelong issue (Patriaia had one of these), yet if dealt with early and properly it works out great

 

Thanks, I have a couple of Ian Dunbar books that I'll have to dust off.

[Alchemist]

I was just suggesting that someone on another thread check out Patricia McConnell's website. She has online resources and has also written books that might be helpful.

 

Best of luck. You probably need to go slow, back up, and elicit individuals to become human treat dispensers for a while. Best of luck!!!

 

Juno might also benefit from a "Control Unleashed" class. You will NOT find it full of dogs who try to rush up to Juno and it will help you recognize her thresholds and how to manage them and train her out of "triggers". (I took my dog to one, not because he was fearful, but because he was losing his brain in a standard obedience class, perhaps because he was finding them overstimulating - it was a great learning experience for both of us and it helped immensely).

[frisbeegirl]

I agree with you needing to backtrack a little. It seems like yesterday that I had a 8 week old pup, and then a four month old, Keeva is almost 1 year old.

 

My method for training is strictly offleash. This allows the dog to look to you (the handler for ques). She would not have time or a desire to show agression if she was responding to your direction. Most of us know that when we leave a border collie to its own devices we will not be happy with the results. However, there are times when a hole gets dug not where we want it. A wall gets chewed (oh I needed to paint anyway.) But agrression is not one those. It can be stopped before it gets out of hand. You will begin to notice a change in her when she becomes agressive. Catch it and divert her attention.

 

 

Train her to look to you, that what she wants. If the agressive behavior is not corrected she will believe this is what she is supposed to do.

 

Border Collie's are amazing and everyday is something new. Remember that.

 

Good Luck

 

 

 

[Amelia]

I am always dismayed when dog owners choose everything under the sun except correction, in spite of clear evidence that it's most efficient and most effective. Gentle leader, treats, clicks, holding a dog's attention does many things, not one of which is necessary to stop aggression.

 

If the dog is showing aggression,and it is escalating, you have a problem. Aggression is not gentle. Why would you think a gentle response would remedy? The sooner you eliminate the problem the better for everyone.

 

Books are written for 1 purpose...to sell books. Some are better than others, but any suggesting there's another way to stop aggression beyond meeting it head on aren't going to get you very far. And, while you're trying and failing, the problem is growing. The author has no responsibility for the results. They'll never have to face you, and kinder and gentler is selling right now.

 

Whenever the pup is showing the least bit of aggression towards anyone, or anything for any reason you can think of, grab it by the scruff, give it a shake and tell it to knock it off. If you equal the dog's intention with your physical action, and your voice, the problem will evaporate almost immediately.

 

I can already hear the hue and cry over my response, but I've owned lots of Border Collies and not one has ever shown aggression towards anyone or anything more than once, or twice. I don't possess any training implements beyond a common leather collar and a leash, and I make my corrections short, sharp, and with the intention of only having to make them once. When I let my dogs know a behvior won't be tolerated, they believe me. I make the rules. Good luck

[juliepoudrier]

If the dog is showing aggression,and it is escalating, you have a problem. Aggression is not gentle. Why would you think a gentle response would remedy? The sooner you eliminate the problem the better for everyone.

In general, I would take Amelia's approach because that's pretty much the way I train as well (i.e., corrections for behavior I don't like). That said, if a dog is experiencing true fear aggression (vs. just being a jerk/brat), then meeting aggression with aggression can often just escalate things and signal to the dog that its fear (and the aggressive response to it) is justified. Although this might not be of great concern with a puppy, who can't really hurt you, it can be a real problem with an adult dog. (How do I know this? Because I own a fear aggressive dog that I got as an adult, and he taught me pretty quickly that any answering aggression on my part would be met with an even more aggressive response on his part.) An aggressive approach also doesn't take into account the fact that one could simply be teaching the dog not to show the initial warning signals that come before the bite, snd that's not a risk I'd want to take.

 

So, I think whatever training approach you choose needs to take into account what's really going on in the pup's mind and also what you feel comfortable doing to correct the problem. The approach I would take with a fearful pup would very much depend on the pup's nature/temperament. In this case, I would probably give a verbal correction the instant I saw any sign that the pup was going to lunge or bark and then distract the pup with a command to do something else (sit, down, whatever).

 

J.

[Root Beer]

Are you familiar with the Shy K-9's Yahoo group? It is fabulous, and I can't recommend it highly enough for anyone with a fearful dog, especially if it is your first time working with a fearful dog.

 

If you post your situation, you will get a lot of helpful suggestions. Even if you don't, the archives are a gold mine, and you should find a lot of very helpful information there.

 

If you are interested and would like a link, I can PM it to you. Or, you will find it if you go into Yahoo Groups and search for "shy dogs".

 

Some other resource suggestions, which I have used firsthand and contain ideas, concepts, and suggestions that have worked for me with my fearful dogs:

 

1. Control Unleashed (Leslie McDevitt) - a top notch program to help foster confidence and self control. Although it is actually not a reactive dog program (according to the author herself), most of the program can help with the exact kind of reactivity that you are describing.

 

2. Click to Calm (Emma Parsons) - this was around before Control Unleashed, but even now I think there is a lot of valuable information in it. One of the author's suggestions, in particular, really helped my fear reactive dog develop a new, and much better, frame of mind around other dogs.

 

3. For Love of a Dog (Patricia McConnell) - this is not a training book, but there is a chapter on fear in this book that is amazing. Coming to understand what is going on with a dog, on a biochemical level, during a fear response, really helped me develop a better attitude toward my fearful dog, and this helped me develop better game plans for his training.

 

4. Scaredy Dog (Ali Brown) - this is a super basic book on fearful dogs. It is excellent, especially, for anyone working with his or her first fearful dog.

 

My Speedy (now almost 11) was fear reactive when he was very young, and I was 100% successful in helping him overcome it through a reinforcement based approach. It wasn't always easy, but it was beyond worth it in the long run. I often forget he was ever dog reactive now.

 

The keys to helping him were:

 

1. Learning to listen to him and how to give him support when he was experiencing fear

 

2. Working with him at a distance he could handle, moving closer only when he was ready

 

3. Being willing to learn, do my best, make mistakes, and keep moving forward when setbacks happened.

 

I wish you all the best with Juno.

[Pam Wolf]

One size fits all dog training inc

[Root Beer]

Edited.

 

Mommalove, another good basic resource for this sort of thing is Patricia McConnell's Feisty Fido. Years ago, when I was just getting started with helping Speedy with his fear and reactivity, I took a class based on this very short and easy to read booklet, and it was an excellent foundation for the work that I ended up doing with him later on.

 

If you are looking for something very straightforward, and easy to implement, it is a very nice and inexpensive resource.

[Maralynn]

In general, I would take Amelia's approach because that's pretty much the way I train as well (i.e., corrections for behavior I don't like). That said, if a dog is experiencing true fear aggression (vs. just being a jerk/brat), then meeting aggression with aggression can often just escalate things and signal to the dog that its fear (and the aggressive response to it) is justified. Although this might not be of great concern with a puppy, who can't really hurt you, it can be a real problem with an adult dog. (How do I know this? Because I own a fear aggressive dog that I got as an adult, and he taught me pretty quickly that any answering aggression on my part would be met with an even more aggressive response on his part.) An aggressive approach also doesn't take into account the fact that one could simply be teaching the dog not to show the initial warning signals that come before the bite, snd that's not a risk I'd want to take.

 

So, I think whatever training approach you choose needs to take into account what's really going on in the pup's mind and also what you feel comfortable doing to correct the problem. The approach I would take with a fearful pup would very much depend on the pup's nature/temperament. In this case, I would probably give a verbal correction the instant I saw any sign that the pup was going to lunge or bark and then distract the pup with a command to do something else (sit, down, whatever).

 

J.

 

Yes^^

 

Kipp reacts when he feels too much pressure. When I tried to correct it out of him, it just added more pressure to the situation and keyed him up even more. I needed to teach him how to cope with it (desensitizing from a distance) or remove him from it depending on the situation.

 

When Kenzi reacts to something, then she's just being hyper or obnoxious and a correction will work.

[terrecar]

Yes^^

 

Kipp reacts when he feels too much pressure. When I tried to correct it out of him, it just added more pressure to the situation and keyed him up even more. I needed to teach him how to cope with it (desensitizing from a distance) or remove him from it depending on the situation.

 

When Kenzi reacts to something, then she's just being hyper or obnoxious and a correction will work.

 

I have learned to make it a point to observe Hannah's responses, because there are times when she feels too much pressure (i.e. proximity to certain things) and others when she is just being obnoxious (i.e. can I bark and antagonize the yard guy, mom?). I am finding that gauging this and acting appropriately works well. If she is being reactive she needs distance, and a correction would definitely exacerbate the problem. If she is being obnoxious, she needs a correction, and has responded well to one. To the outside observer, the behaviors might look the same, but I have found that there is a difference. Maybe my dog is just odd, but this is working well for her!

[mbc1963]

I have learned to make it a point to observe Hannah's responses, because there are times when she feels too much pressure (i.e. proximity to certain things) and others when she is just being obnoxious (i.e. can I bark and antagonize the yard guy, mom?). I am finding that gauging this and acting appropriately works well. If she is being reactive she needs distance, and a correction would definitely exacerbate the problem. If she is being obnoxious, she needs a correction, and has responded well to one. To the outside observer, the behaviors might look the same, but I have found that there is a difference. Maybe my dog is just odd, but this is working well for her!

 

Oh, I second this!

 

I was out with my neighbor the other night, and Buddy was lying on the grass. A bunch of kids went by on skate boards, and I stepped between Buddy and the road (in case one of the kids got the brilliant idea to skate up to the dog, which would have triggered reactivity). Buddy let out a lazy growl and I said, "Oh, stop it," and he did. My neighbor remarked on how much calmer he was than he used to be - and I noted that this particular growl was just a sort of 'kids going buzzing by so I guess I should do something' growl, rather than a reactive growl.

 

Seven years into this thing, I definitely can see a huge difference between normal dog stuff (ooh! exciting new things!) and authentic fear/reactivity. For the first, I just scold (or, in really obnoxious incidents, fear-of-God). For the second, moving away and giving space from the fearful thing, then gradual slow reintroduction if necessary, is the only thing that will work.

 

Using the fear-of-God thing on Buddy when he's genuinely fearful and reactive is useless and works against everything I've achieved. Learning to distinguish is very important.

 

Mary

[rushdoggie]

These videos were posted on a dog list and they have some good info in them. Micheal Ellis has a good socialization video on YouTube as well.

 

 

Michael Ellis videos: "Fear Period in Young Dogs."

Many of what he talks about apply to adult dogs, too.

 

 

video 1

 

video 2

 

video 3

[Root Beer]

Another thing that I would suggest is to talk to your instructor - outside of class, if possible - about the effect that the GL has had on Juno.

 

If you don't want to use the GL anymore, please be upfront about it. As a student, you are the client and you know your dog best. If your dog is responding badly to something the instructor has suggested, only you can make that known.

 

If you have another plan (such as systematic ds/cc at a distance that works Juno), let your instructor know how you plan to go about it, and ask if any accommodations that you need (such as being excused from class exercises, or more distance while Juno works for a time, etc.) will work for her.

 

If you hit an impasse, then it might be time to look around for another class. Your instructor, or someone else at the facility, might know someone who has experience with this kind of fear reactivity and can offer more help.

 

I make a lot of modifications to what my dogs and I do in training classes, and I've found my instructors to be very open to that, as long as I let them know what I'm doing and why. And as an instructor, I want to know if a problem has come up with a particular technique so I can help the human student figure out whether to tweak the approach to make it more workable for that dog, or to try something different. As a student, I want my instructor to know if something that is being taught is causing a problem for my dog.

[terrecar]

These videos were posted on a dog list and they have some good info in them. Micheal Ellis has a good socialization video on YouTube as well.

 

 

Michael Ellis videos: "Fear Period in Young Dogs."

Many of what he talks about apply to adult dogs, too.

 

 

video 1

 

video 2

 

video 3

 

I've seen some of his videos, but hadn't seen these. I like him and Ivan Balabanov (for Schutzhund, anyway). Thanks for posting them.

[MommaLove]

Thank you all for your input! I have a lot of reading to do, with all of the great resources you have recommended

 

Puppy class is on hold for two weeks while the instructor is away, and then we will be gone the following two weeks, so Juno won't have class again for about a month. In that time, Juno and I are going to do plenty of work together. I'm not sure yet exactly what my game plan is, but after I get through all the reading and videos that have been suggested I'm sure I'll have it figured out.

 

I was planning on bringing Juno with me to the Kingston Sheepdog Trials next month. Considering this fear thing she has going on, would you think it a bad idea - or a chance to work on the issue?

[Pam Wolf]

to the OP I wish you luck. to all who have behaviour problems remember the advice you get over the internet is only worth the price you pay for it (yes, including this perhaps).

 

Like the top handler from GB who many years ago gave a clinic in the States when asked what to do for a particular problem, his response "I don't know how to fix it, I'd have never let it start in the first place", often those who respond have never worked with difficult problems encountered by the general public simply because they would never have allow the problem to start.

 

If they buy a pup with a bad temperment, either they sort it out or they get rid of it for a better dog (and hence never learn the problems faced by many people)

[MommaLove]

Oh, I almost forgot! Our trainer suggested that Juno's reactivity is because she is raw-fed. She said that raw-fed dogs get too much protein, which causes aggression. The recommendation was to look into a 5-HTP supplement for Juno or add a vegetable component to her meals to lower protein.

 

I did quite a bit of research after that conversation, and it became obvious to me that the trainer doesn't really understand protein and 5-HTP - it seemed more like she had read an article in a magazine and was just repeating what she remembered of it. In any case, I'm not changing Juno's diet (prey-model raw) just yet as I see her really thriving on it in terms of physical health & well-being, and I'm not convinced that she's getting too much protein.

 

However, when I was researching 5-HTP, I found some interesting information about Tryptophan supplementation. Tryptophan is converted into 5-HTP by the body, and seems to be a gentler and more effective supplement. It's something I'm considering as a back-up if my other efforts are not successful (though I'm confident that Juno and I will be successful in overcoming this reactivity!). I'm wondering if any of you have heard of it or have tried it?

[Maralynn]

Oh, I almost forgot! Our trainer suggested that Juno's reactivity is because she is raw-fed. She said that raw-fed dogs get too much protein, which causes aggression. The recommendation was to look into a 5-HTP supplement for Juno or add a vegetable component to her meals to lower protein.

 

I did quite a bit of research after that conversation, and it became obvious to me that the trainer doesn't really understand protein and 5-HTP - it seemed more like she had read an article in a magazine and was just repeating what she remembered of it. In any case, I'm not changing Juno's diet (prey-model raw) just yet as I see her really thriving on it in terms of physical health & well-being, and I'm not convinced that she's getting too much protein.

 

However, when I was researching 5-HTP, I found some interesting information about Tryptophan supplementation. Tryptophan is converted into 5-HTP by the body, and seems to be a gentler and more effective supplement. It's something I'm considering as a back-up if my other efforts are not successful (though I'm confident that Juno and I will be successful in overcoming this reactivity!). I'm wondering if any of you have heard of it or have tried it?

 

I'd find a new trainer if I were you.

 

The GL "solution" combined with the idea that raw causes aggression points to a trainer that really doesn't know what they're talking about IMO.

 

As far as Tryptophan goes, it's already fairly plentiful in meat. And there are no conclusive studies as to it's effectiveness. So I wouldn't bother.

[Cynthia P]

I think the raw thing causing aggression doesn't have any merit.

 

When you bring her to the Kingston SDT you can stay as far away or as close as she is comfortable.

 

I usually think of these things as a phase, especially if they seemed fine a couple of weeks ago

 

Cynthia

[MommaLove]

I think Patricia McConnell is my new best friend

 

After reading this blog post, today I am taking Juno to the park. While the kids are playing, we're going to position ourselves a safe distance away from other dogs (there usually are plenty) and work on "Watch Me". When that becomes solid, we'll start decreasing the distance between us and the other dogs. Won't my kids be thrilled to go to the park every day!!

[MommaLove]

As far as Tryptophan goes, it's already fairly plentiful in meat. And there are no conclusive studies as to it's effectiveness. So I wouldn't bother.

 

 

DUH. Of course I knew this, somewhere back in my brain. That's why we feel all sleepy and good after eating a turkey dinner - Tryptophan!

 

I was on a prescribed Tryptophan supplement some years ago for sleeping problems (it can help you sleep). It worked wonders and also really boosted my mood. I'd be willing to try it for a dog, too, though at this point we don't need to resort to supplements.

[frisbeegirl]

I I don't agree with too much protein causing aggression. I know trainers that do believe that you can control a dog (or pup) energy level with the amount of fat and protein they are fed.

 

With border collie's being allergic to certain grain based foods and also loose stools. Owners need to evaluate the choices out there and use what is good.

 

I would never decrease proper nutrition for Keeva because she has too much energy or is aggressive.

 

 

Border Collie's needs can change daily depending on what is demanded of them.

 

Health is everything.