Herding Instinct "Evaluation"

[jdarling]

I was on the BCSA website (looking to see if they commented about the AKC's "neutral" position on the proposed SN legislation in California), and I ran across this:

 

Herding Instinct Evaluation

 

While I applaud their efforts to up the ante with this little test, I doubt the effectiveness of changing the word "test" to "evaluation" and adding a little disclaimer.

 

The Border Collie Society of America, Inc. is very concerned with keeping the herding instinct alive and well in the Border Collie. This instinct evaluation program is an effort to facilitate this goal at the very basic level. Passing such an evaluation and receiving a certificate of passing does not endorse the dog’s herding abilities at the time of the evaluation or his trainability and usefulness in the future.

 

This blurb then begs the question, "Well, then what is the point?" Unfortunately, this little "evaluation" means way too much to too many people.

[PSmitty]

This blurb then begs the question, "Well, then what is the point?"

 

You get a certificate!

[NCStarkey]

Hello Everyone,

 

jdarling wrote, "This blurb then begs the question, "Well, then what is the point?" Unfortunately, this little "evaluation" means way too much to too many people."

 

Then, Paula replied humorously, "You get a certificate! "

 

Good one, Paula!!! And, I fully agree with jdarling about the purpose and validity of this "evaluation"!

 

Since I don't pay any attention to what the BCSA does, am I to assume that this is a "new and improved" version of a previous assessment? From what I do know of the various "herding titles" that dogs (and their owners) acquire through organizations such as the AKC, AHBA, etc., the people who obtain them use them as proof that their dog is somehow superior to those that do not have these titles. Unfortunately, these titles are often used as a criteria to justify breeding these dogs, as well. What a shame.

 

Regards,

nancy

[Sue R]

A prominent breeder of Beagles made polite conversation with me one evening (as I prepared for a presentation on "Stockdogs" at the local kennel club monthly meeting) on the "absolutely beautiful" dog that had won Best of Breed for Border Collies at Westminster just days beforehand, and didn't I think he was just a wonderful and outstanding representative of the breed?

 

I gave him a piece of my mind on what I felt about the showing of Border Collies and breeding for appearance (or anything but true working abilities and qualities that that requires) and he said to me, "But this dog has herding titles!"

 

Guess what? That dog had passed a Herding Instinct Test and was therefore (in this man's mind) a fine representative of a dog that demonstrated true working ability.

 

All it really boils down to is letters after a dog's name, and about as meaningful as the letters floating in a bowl of alphabet soup. But people will go to great lengths to get any and all those letters they can get...

[NCStarkey]

Hi everyone,

 

Great post, Sue!

 

In it you wrote, "Guess what? That dog had passed a Herding Instinct Test and was therefore (in this man's mind) a fine representative of a dog that demonstrated true working ability."

 

Excuse me, but I have to go barf right now.

 

Regards,

nancy

[NCStarkey]

Hello everyone,

 

I just read the following quote on a post to Sheepdog-L, and it seems appropriate for this thread.

 

" Pedigree indicates what the animal should be. Conformation indicates what the animal appears to be. But performance indicates what the animal actually is. " Anonymous

 

Performance is far more than simply showing an interest in something ("instinct"?).

 

Regards,

nancy

[AllieMackie]

I'm getting a BC in the near future, and while I don't have my own farm, I'd love to have my dog do herding as a hobbyjob.

 

A local herder/breeder, Nathalie, has herding instinct tests to determine whether or not she'll give your dog classes in herding for fun. I believe it is the official "title" instinct test, but when it comes to my dog, I would only want the title to let my dog herd casually as a fun thing.

 

I'm basically saying that a herding instinct test for the purposes of starting herding with your dog is a good thing. But a herding instinct test just to say "look omg my dog has a title that says they can herd sheep so they're REAL"? Uh, no.

 

The real herding dogs are doing the job every day, running Open trials, and probably don't have an instinct title.

[D Strickland]

Hello everyone,

 

I just read the following quote on a post to Sheepdog-L, and it seems appropriate for this thread.

 

" Pedigree indicates what the animal should be. Conformation indicates what the animal appears to be. But performance indicates what the animal actually is. " Anonymous

 

Performance is far more than simply showing an interest in something ("instinct"?).

 

Regards,

nancy

 

 

You probably got that from my signature ... I stole it from someone else last year !!!! LOL

[D Strickland]

Hi everyone,

 

Great post, Sue!

 

In it you wrote, "Guess what? That dog had passed a Herding Instinct Test and was therefore (in this man's mind) a fine representative of a dog that demonstrated true working ability."

 

Excuse me, but I have to go barf right now.

 

Regards,

nancy

 

Evaluations and Tests are ways for clubs to make money.... and they make A LOT of it.

 

Some people truly believe that their dog is superior because it looked at a sheep and didn't run away !!!

 

There is NO WAY you can put the Border Collie in the same class as a Corgi or a Rottweiler .... but somehow the AKC did .... it's been downhill since.

 

I've been to AKC herding trials and instinct tests/evaluations ...... it's scary that so many people are working so hard to destroy the Border Collie !!!!!

[NCStarkey]

Hi Dave,

 

You probably got that from my signature ... I stole it from someone else last year !!!! LOL

 

I did get that quote from your signature, and thank you very much! It is perfect for this thread!

 

Regards,

nancy

[Liz P]

Do you know that there are actually people who TRAIN their dogs in order to pass a herding instinct test? Sad. Very, very sad.

[Bo Peep]

Have you ever BEEN to an ACK trail? I did- for spite. I had Migraine ILP'd for obedience and wanted to prove that these ACK sheepdog trials were a bunch of cr@p. So, I took Migraine. She let the sheep out of the pen and I walked the entire course without a dog yep, we got 2nd place. The sheep are so dog broke that the ACK are only interested in giving people titles and taking their money it means NOTHING. This was many years ago and the gal putting on the trial was NOT happy, but scores are scores and I'm really surprised I didn't get first place.

[Janba]

Do you know that there are actually people who TRAIN their dogs in order to pass a herding instinct test? Sad. Very, very sad.

 

I don't know about there but in Aus dogs must have had prior exposure to stock and you have to be able to call them off. It is also not a title. You also don't have to apply for the certificate before entering the test levels, just have a pass card.

 

She let the sheep out of the pen and I walked the entire course without a dog yep, we got 2nd place. The sheep are so dog broke that the ACK are only interested in giving people titles and taking their money it means NOTHING.

 

How do they get on in the AKC trials once they are past started and the dog has to drive? I would also wonder how they would do started were the dog has to cast, lift and fetch or do your sheep just run to the handler?

 

 

I don't think that the instinct certificate or the Herding test show anything about the dogs abilities other than the fact it isn't going to just eat poo or rip the sheep to pieces, though I have seen a lot of dogs pass that shouldn't. The herding test is also not compulsory, you can go straight to pre trial. I also think there is a step up from the test levels to the trial levels, at least with our ANKC herding.

[Bo Peep]

Actually,

Remember I'm old and this was a long time ago. The course I ran with Migraine was get the sheep out of the area with a lot of sheep in there. Then lay the dog down and onto the course. Your dog was supposed to take these sheep through obstacles, example (little gates, y gates, down the pasture, through some more gates) yet YOU had to be on the outside of the gates. So it was kind of a wear/drive type of thing. But what stuck me as all so odd, was I didn't even need a dog. The sheep already KNEW the course. No, we didn't get a title, in fact we were NOT invited back- LOL. But that was our way of saying to AKC titles and we DID prove that it doesn't take a dog to herd sheep at them!

[D Strickland]

Actually,

Remember I'm old and this was a long time ago. The course I ran with Migraine was get the sheep out of the area with a lot of sheep in there. Then lay the dog down and onto the course. Your dog was supposed to take these sheep through obstacles, example (little gates, y gates, down the pasture, through some more gates) yet YOU had to be on the outside of the gates. So it was kind of a wear/drive type of thing. But what stuck me as all so odd, was I didn't even need a dog. The sheep already KNEW the course. No, we didn't get a title, in fact we were NOT invited back- LOL. But that was our way of saying to AKC titles and we DID prove that it doesn't take a dog to herd sheep at them!

 

 

I have to jump in here ... When I went looking for a herding dog 4 years ago I ended-up with an AKC dog because I didn't know better. During her first year I went to AKC and USBCHA trials and I quickly "saw the light". I then spent the following 2 years bashing the AKC on my website and my business cards. During this time I kept training my dog to USBCHA standards. She can easily complete a 400 yard outrun, lift, fetch, pen, and is doing well at shedding but she does not have the eye or presence to push real sheep thru drive or cross-drive.

 

Last fall I was convinced to try a couple AKC trials. I figured ... what the heck ... let's see what I've been bashing about. I entered 3 trials ( 6 runs ) and came in first in all but 1 run. I had never shed before and during my first advanced run I was not even able to split the sheep but because I was able to hold them in the general area of where the shedding ring should've been .. I got a passing score !!!! I was pissed and told the judges so !!!! On the run where I didn't come in first my dog lost her mind, lost contact with the sheep, and went 80 yards away and laid down ... the sheep, however, turned after the drive panels, went to the cross drive panels, turned towards the pen and waited for us. There was no dog involvement ... we received a lower score but we passed and got another leg towards our Advanced (Open ) title.

 

Now I have a dog with a Herding Excellent title in A ( arena ) and B ( field ) course but she can't complete a simple Ranch ( 1 leg of drive ) course in USBCHA.

 

So I went back to bashing the AKC for involving the Border Collie in their nightmare.

 

Disclaimer ..... I have no problems with the AKC having a herding program for all other breeds since they are loose-eyed and work differently than the Border Collies. I've never agreed with Conformation but there will always be people that look at beauty over function.

 

Adding the Border Collie to all other herding breeds is like comparing apples to oranges and then taking that apple and making apple sauce.

[jdarling]

What's worse is that if the change is approved as proposed, it's going to throw a monkey wrench into the BCSA's Versatility Award program. It will cause mass confusion! Pure utter chaos! They'll have to change their whole versatility system and grandfather in some dogs out there (that are working on the other required elements) that have already gotten their all-coveted HT title that is very difficult to achieve and for which they worked many many hours to prepare for.

 

The Versatility Award: This award is available to those dogs who earn a total of 7 points across at least three different activity areas. An HT title or higher in the area of Herding is required for this award.

[Sue R]

An email I received from a dependable source (with the notation that I could "pass it along") said this,

 

"Didn't see their current info, but I know for a fact that several dogs that were failed at the instinct test at the first BCSA National were later 'passed' by a paperpusher in the office. IOW, the evaluators didn't think these dogs had enough "instinct" to pass the test so they failed them, but someone filling out paperwork changed it to a pass. This was verified by owners of said dogs and a Board member. It was pretty much hushed up otherwise. So much fo their value put on such certificates."

 

I have seen HCT tests (not AKC but AHBA, which requires that two tests under different judges must be passed for the awarding of the "title") where the first evaluator easily passed about any dog that moved in the round pen with sheep, but the second was more stringent with the dogs in the second test. This seemed to be an effort at preventing very unworthy animals from gaining the "title". Nevertheless, while these evaluators are superior trainers and handlers of working-bred stockdogs, I still think this sort of test isn't worth the paper it's printed on.

 

While the AHBA rules state an enclosure sized between 50x50 and 80x80, I've never seen the test done outside a small round pen, which was nowhere near that size. I failed to see just what significant "ability" could and was demonstrated under these conditions.

 

I think it's largely a sop to the ego of the person who has a "herding breed" pet, "proof" that a "herding breed" dog that has not been bred for working ability for generations has "natural instinct" (and therefore is a worthy breeding prospect), or the person with a show/sport dog who wants to "prove" their dog's "versatility".

 

This is coming from someone who is currently a Novice level drop-out because neither she nor her dog have proven their ability to progress to the next level. We can all use a good dose of reality, and I don't think that "titles", herding "instinct" tests, and herding "capability" tests really provide that. Real tests of ability do, and those are found in ISDS-style Open level trials, and the progress towards that goal through the lower levels.

[Bo Peep]

Very well said Sue.

I know of some people here that do herding instinct tests. I'm not quite sure what they are good for. Seen them done in OR also. It means, yes, your dog chases sheep- LOL. And it costs you about 20-25.00 to prove it. In SOME cases. I've seen it work in the owners way- whether (SP) to pursue herding or not. BUT, you'd know that if you had a dog or two. Chasing sheep and showing an interest in sheep are two different things and can NOT be determined by an AKC judge.

I know a very important AKC judge and trialing judge- won't mention her name, out of respect. She has written many articles, pffft. She raises Cattle dogs and recently got into BC's. Just because she saw mine and a friends.

She's done quite well for herself, is on the net. Published articles, etc... Yet, She does NOT have a BC running in open!

I'd settle for P/N - IF SHE'S the pro- know what I mean? I've been in this for so long, I know what I'm talking about, just don't have the land or time or sheep anymore to do it. Darn ex-hubby!!! Gimme that 40 acres back!!!