neutering question

[Jussy]

Brody is 4 months old. to early for him to be fixed. But What are the consequences if i choose to wait.

I have recently become friends with a person who breeds BC in my area. he has told me that he has breed a fre litters and is looking for a male. Im thinking of doing it but i still have to do some more research.

So i have 3 options.

1. say NO

2. breed him and not guve him fixed

3. breed him /then get him fixed.

 

what are the consequences for #3

[Guest WoobiesMom]

Oh please don't. There are just so many pups and dogs in need of a home (including purebred), please don't breed. And 4 months isn't too young, Woobie was snipped at 12 weeks! It's so much better for them. I'm sure others will be along to cite all the many reasons such as roaming, cancer, etc. but just please choose option #1.

[Guest pax]

Pretty much the premise of this board is that only working Border Collies who are sound and of good temperment should be bred.

 

Your dog is 4 months old. He may be lovely and talented and everything, but he's 4 months old. It's a little bit like entering your 4 month old in the Miss America pageant. Kind of premature, and, worth examining to see if you think it's a worthwhile goal.

[trailrider]

Neuter now, and have fun without worries.

[Bo Peep]

I'm so glad I had Usher neutered. No worries. License fees are cheaper. It really did calm him down a bit and if anyone wants a dog like him, they can go straight to the source. He lives just a few miles away and is an open trailing dog. No sense me taking on all the worries. Neuter now. You won't regret it.

[AKB]

I say neuter. Like Woobie's Mom said, we have an absolutely grotesque problem with pet overpopulation in this country. If you're still thinking about it, you really need to think about why. What makes you think your dog is a good candidate for a breeding program? What would make him a good match with the bitch in question? Does your friend have homes lined up for the potential puppies? What are his motivations for breeding his dogs? any health problems in the lines? What are they? What about your dog? Will the two of you split the expenses associated with raising a litter of puppies, vet checks, etc? What abilities do your dogs have that make them exceptional representatives of the breed? It's not about pairing a pretty male with a pretty female. There's a lot to consider, it's a tremendous commitment, and a lot of dogs are languishing and dying in shelters.

[Jussy]

Thanks all for your replys. i really do have alot to think about.

Well the female he has is a rough haired coat. i have a long.so im not sure how tha works out.

I have been doing alot of reading since he has asked. of course i never said i would. i was kinda thinking about it.

I just think he is such a handsome BC and could pass on his looks.

 

AKB very good points that i MUST think about.i will take all of your questions and more to think about.

 

Woobiesmom. i have read and i have also asked the vet he metioned everything you have said to me.

 

this will take alot of thinking and research.

 

but again what could happen with option 3?

.....

 

right now im smack in the middle @ 1&3

i know he is WAY to young to mate, but hes at that age were he should be getitng fixed soon

[AKB]

Well, the repercussions of number three of course is that it's still one more litter we don't need unless both of your dogs have some spectacular working ability. If they don't, don't breed them. Shelters are brimming with wonderful pets. Another thing to consider is what nature of breeder your friend is- I'm not bashing his character by any means- but a lot of people breed for a bit of extra money, some breed because they want to see their beloved pet succeded in some way- these are not reasons to breed. You breed because you have a profound contribution to make, not because you think puppies are cute. Seriously, one litter is a lot of work, and it's one litter too many if you don't do a ton of research first.

[Tassie]

I'm sure your boy is a gorgeous pup, and will be a lovely companion. Your friend's bitch is probably lovely too. But .... that is NEVER a good enough reason to breed. If you read the sticky at the top of each forum, and read threads about breeding Border Collies, you will see that the only acceptable reason to breed Border Collies is to contribute to the betterment of the breed, and that means because they are good, or better than good, working (as in stock-working) dogs, and their stock-working characteristics will likely complement each other. PERIOD.

 

That doesn't mean you have to neuter your boy right now - you can wait a while, and there are some good reasons for waiting till he's a little older - but please, please, do not let him mate with a bitch if you do, and please, please don't help your friend to become part of the back-yard breeder problem that helps to fill shelters with unwanted pups. Border Collies deserve better than that.

 

Oh, and depending on your friend's motivation - you might not want to leave your boy and your friend's bitch unsupervised - unscrupulous bitch owners have been known to be sneaky in getting their dogs bred.

 

My vote - desex your boy, and enjoy a wonderful pet.

[Nancy Bovee]

I would just caution you NOT to neuter him too soon. I just had a visit with two of my pups littermates who were neutered at about 7 months and the structural differences were astounding and not pretty. The early neuters were very much like my early neuterred boy - narrow chested, long legged and more upright (and tending to have shoulder problems).

 

I'm just about to neuter my 1 1/2 year old. Keep him "single" and neuter him when he's really structurally mature.

 

Nancy

[Guest WoobiesMom]

Consequences of #3 - breed him and then neuter him? Well, for one, there's fewer potentially unwanted pups in the world who may end up in rescue or worse. Where does your dog come from? Is he from a long line of working stockdogs? What about the bitch? Is there something really unique about the two of them, their working abilities, etc. that make it a good thing to put them together and make babies? Are either you or your friend familiar with whelping a litter and assisting with a birth? I'm not but I sure hear some horror stories. Do you each have the ability to take back a pup if it doesn't work out and find it a suitable home? How will you determine what's a "suitable home"? Will you do home visits for each potential buyer? Will you have the new family sign a spay/neuter contract or will you possibly let them go ahead and breed another litter, just because. Are you familiar with the numbers of border collies who are dumped at shelters or turned over to rescues because the dogs herd and nip the children? Do you know that in the UK they won't even adopt to families with children because of this instinct? And even if your dog and the bitch are from great lines, they're not old enough to determine if these great instincts and qualities are present yet. Are you willing to wait 2-3 years and see what kind of dogs they really turn out to be?

 

Those are just some of the things I think should be considered. It's a much more serious undertaking than just letting two dogs mate and selling the pups through the newpaper or word of mouth. It's part of the reason shelters and rescues are overflowing with adult dogs that there are not enough homes for and why so many of them die for no reason other than nobody wants them. Browse Petfinder.com and take a look at how many BCs and BC mixes are there.

 

And if I haven't convinced you yet, scoot on over to PETA's website and take a look at how some dogs in shelters are euthanized. If that doesn't change your mind, I hope there's something else that will.

 

Please don't breed and convince your neighbor to decide against it as well.

[Liz P]

If a "breeder" is asking about using your 4 month old on his bitch, even if he is talking about in the future, he probably is not a very good breeder. No responsible breeder I know would even consider a potential stud until it is at least a few years old and working on sheep. So, even if you had plans of some day using your dogs to sire pups I would RUN from that breeder.

 

It is better for your dog's health to stay intact until he is done growing, BUT if you feel you will be under a lot of pressure or be too tempted to breed it is probably better to have him neutered sooner rather than later.

 

Everyone always tells people to not breed because of all the unwanted BCs in the world, but I feel that the message just doesn't sink in with most people. If you have plans to ever breed, even far in the future, you should volunteer with your local BC rescue for a few years. At the very least volunteer at your local shelter. See for yourself what happens when people produce puppies for the wrong reasons. I bet you will be shocked by what people are capable of.

[bc friend]

There are health reasons supporting neutering as well. While not as common as mammary gland cancer females, intact males can develop testicular cancer. Intact males also fight over females in heat, especially if their energy is not channeled into work (herding or sports).

 

You've mentioned the breeding because of the way your dog and the bitch look - while I can understand your wanting to perpetuate their looks, there is certainly every chance that none of the pups will heavily resemble the parents in markings - structure, temperament, etc. yes, but not necessarily "looks."

 

I prefer to neuter when a male is a little over a yr old. I would strongly encourage you to not breed and to neuter your pup. JMO.

[MaggieDog]

I work at a large shelter (18000 animal intake/yr) - I see the consequences of irresponsible breeding EVERY SINGLE DAY. Please neuter your boy w/o breeding him!

 

There's nothing sadder than seeing a litter born at the shelter that you know there isn't space for - euthanasia is more humane than the alternative if they aren't brought in, but it still sucks.

[Guest TheRuffMuttGang]

but again what could happen with option 3?

 

Take a look at my WEBSITE and you'll find LOTS of good answers to your question. Other rescuers can point you to their websites with THOUSANDS more reasons not to go with #3. There are FAR too many unwanted, PUREBRED dogs that were produced because mom and dad were "cute" and that of course made them worthy of breeding. You would not BELIEVE the number of dogs that end up in rescues with papers. Every single dog on that website is a rescue dog. MOST are from kill shelters. A couple came from other rescuers where they initially came from kill shelters. And a couple of them came from rehoming situations where people got or bred a dog because it was cute and then they realized they really did not want the dog. If you want a really good example, check out Stella. Cute puppy, right? She was part of an intentionally bred litter and because she was the runt and "nobody wanted her" she ended up as a "free to good home" on Craiglist. With her strikingly good looks, she's damn lucky she ended up in rescue (and ultimately her forever home) because it would have been VERY EASY for some backyard breeder to get their hands on her and breed her every heat cycle until she dies just because she is a "cute" dog.

 

Cute or not. Neuter your dog. If you want another one, go find one in a rescue or shelter somewhere. I guarantee you can find one that's just as cute and just as purebred.

[MaryP]

Neuter.

[BCBaxter]

Neuter your dog.

I am curious to know what advantages you feel there are to NOT neutering him?

Have you had/do you have other dogs? Did you neuter them?

[silhouettestable]

I also vote for neuter. I just had my pups neutered and spayed. They were born at a BC rescue just days after their mom was surrendered. The reason? Her old owners got her (a BC), didn't spay, then got a male BC, didn't neuter, and then just couldn't be bothered dealing with pups so mom went into rescue about 3 days before giving birth. Why? Where are people's brains?

 

Two of my other dogs are also rescues. They and a bunch of other puppies were due for euthanasia in a New Orleans shelter when puppy rescue group saved them. They transported 15 puppies to Canada to be adopted. There are just so many unwanted puppies already around.

 

You can read bios about my rescued pups on my website if you'd like. It's www.racingrescues.com

[Kat's Dogs]

Neuter your dog - WITHOUT breeding.

 

As was said, it would be good to wait awhile until he is mature. But please, whatever you do - don't bred your dog for looks.

[Pearse]

Thanks all for your replys. i really do have alot to think about.

 

No. You don't.

 

You only have one thing to think about.

 

Is your dog in the top 10% of working dogs in the country? If yes, you may want to breed him. If no, you ought to have him neutered.

 

But, you say, he's only four months old. How do I know if he's one of the greatest sheepdogs ever to walk the earth?

 

You don't - so until you do, don't breed him.

 

Are you going to work him every day on sheep? If yes, you may want to hold off for a couple of years. If no, neuter.

 

Are you going to trial him against the top dogs in the country? If yes, you may want to hold off for a couple of years. If no, neuter.

 

There are just too many mediocre Border Collies being bred. There are too many being bred because; they have rough coat, smooth coat, merle coat, are just the cutest thing ever, awesome frisbee dog, awesome agility dog, won a trial once, showed interest in sheep, is a Ch freakin HCX.

 

Does it work better than most other Border Collies. If yes, you may want to find someone who knows something about breeding working dogs and ask their opinion as to if, and if to whom. If not, N.E.U.T.E.R.

 

In my humble opinion.

 

Pearse

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

I vote to make Pearse's summary a sticky! And a flyer. And a big giant bulletin board, maybe outside the Purina dog sport facility. . . .

[OurBoys]

I second that!

[Beth G]

Please leave the breeding to the experts. As there are already so many dogs and pups in the world (especially BC's)that will never find homes.

 

If you have any doubt about this, please take a walk through a Humane Society and then PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE rethink about neutereing your pup!

 

Neutering earlier is better than never- unless you are a professional at breeding and know what you are doing.

 

Both my dogs (male and female) were done at 4mos. Now, there is some debate on early neutering and spaying affecting bone growth, so when to fix your dog is personal choice. I did not know about it affecting bone growth at that time, or I personally would have waited.

But I would NOT have bred!!

 

 

 

(To find out more on this topic, you can do a search on these boards for early spay and neuter and read up on that and make your own decisions).

 

But PLEASE do neuter your pup! Your arguments for why you DON'T want to neuter are very weak .

[Barb Scott]

Number 4. Don't neuter him (at least until he's done growing) and don't breed him!

Barb S