TravelerBlue Posted July 13, 2015 Report Share Posted July 13, 2015 I lucked into my first Border Collie somewhat by chance. Had him for 14 years.This is my first time trying to choose a puppy in a somewhat educated way. How much can you really tell about an individual puppy's personality at the age of 5 weeks? or 8 weeks? When a breeder says "I think he has the most drive and 'work ethic' out of the bunch," or another breeder says "he likes to run and play, he's a sweetheart" --- does early behavior really justify conclusions about adult behavior?Also, unrelated question I'm just curious about: There's herding, agility, flyball, etc. What do people mean when they talk about a Border Collie trained for obedience? Thanks much! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GentleLake Posted July 13, 2015 Report Share Posted July 13, 2015 Probably competitive obedience. It's a sport that predates agility, flyball, etc. Dogs are trained to perform certain skills to demonstrate its level of training for tasks that are supposed to reflect its suitability as a well trained pet (and beyond, in higher levels), much the way that sheepdog trials are supposed to demonstrate a dog's aptitude for farm work. I'll let others comment on puppy assessments. There are various opinions on the subject. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CptJack Posted July 13, 2015 Report Share Posted July 13, 2015 I think I would trust a breeders assessment after watching the pups grow over my own, as far as working ability, drive, and so on. I would also never bet anything I wasn't prepared to lose on a puppy turning out as expected either physically or temperamentally/behaviorally. Which is to say "I think you can make a *best* guess, and an educated guess, but I think it's still a guess and you're not going to know exactly what you have before the dog's mature - and that the close to maturity the dog is, the less likely the surprise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smalahundur Posted July 13, 2015 Report Share Posted July 13, 2015 Take a group of toddlers, say two years olds. What profession will they excel in when they are grown up? Can you tell by looking at them romping around the kindergarden? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aschlemm Posted July 14, 2015 Report Share Posted July 14, 2015 Do you want a Border as a pet or a working dog or a competition dog? I've worked in kennels for years and enjoy watching puppies interact. Usually I have a personality type in mind and then I simply look at litters and watch for that personality. The first one I just ended up with by accident but I loved him so much and he was such an awesome dog that I've had three others since. I've ended up with the personality in the adult dog that I saw in the puppy. My male is high drive but a total clown, my female is medium drive (I didn't want two high drive dogs at one time) and very sweet and cuddly. Working ability I doubt you can tell much at eight weeks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maralynn Posted July 14, 2015 Report Share Posted July 14, 2015 You can pick out some basic traits. I asked about and got some certain traits with my youngster. He's a yr old now and those traits still hold true. I looked at it as not a guarantee but an educated guess by a knowledgeable person. Of course they're not going to predict future talent, but things like confidence and a desire to interact with a person can be seen at 8 w/o. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CptJack Posted July 14, 2015 Report Share Posted July 14, 2015 Molly as a puppy is very much like Molly today. There were surprises along the way, but in general what I saw then was what I got - only in raw material form, if that makes sense. There are some big changes sometimes, but with her most of what was there then, is there now. The biggest thing, that could in no way have been predicted, was that she ended up being dog reactive and her general temperament is just a lot sharper than you'd have expected from seeing her as a puppy. Someone more experienced with BC may have picked that up - I didn't, but looking back I can kind of see it now. I had said her breeder didn't either, but remembered that the breeder said she was 'high stress', so who the heck knows. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GentleLake Posted July 14, 2015 Report Share Posted July 14, 2015 Maybe, as Mara says, some basic traits. But in my experience puppies can end up changing dramatically once they leave their litters. I'll never forget one little gal. She was really pretty laid back in the litter the couple times I'd visited and the breeder confirmed this. I considered naming her Zen but ended up calling her Wren instead. It was by far the more appropriate of the 2 names as she ended up being a very busy dog once she got away from her littermates. Zen wouldn't have suited her at.all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TravelerBlue Posted July 14, 2015 Author Report Share Posted July 14, 2015 Thanks for all the responses! I feel more knowledgeable about how to approach it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mum24dog Posted July 14, 2015 Report Share Posted July 14, 2015 I've often wondered how my youngster's breeders select which pup(s) to keep and run on from a litter. Any extremes of behaviour are obviously to be avoided but the rest .........? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted July 14, 2015 Report Share Posted July 14, 2015 I know any number of working dog breeders who just keep the pup no one else chose and that has worked out just fine for them. I think some general personality traits hold true, but my 9 month old is something of a resource guarder (of me from my other dogs) but certainly showed no sign of that in her litter. In fact, she was rather boring as part of the litter--nothing stood out except that I was picking from two pups and she was a bit more outgoing than the other. Her granddam is extremely independent, and as she's grown, I've seen a lot of that dog in her. I've just started her on stock and she shows promise. Hopefully that inherited independent streak won't cause us problems. J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maralynn Posted July 14, 2015 Report Share Posted July 14, 2015 Maybe, as Mara says, some basic traits. But in my experience puppies can end up changing dramatically once they leave their litters. I'll never forget one little gal. She was really pretty laid back in the litter the couple times I'd visited and the breeder confirmed this. I considered naming her Zen but ended up calling her Wren instead. It was by far the more appropriate of the 2 names as she ended up being a very busy dog once she got away from her littermates. Zen wouldn't have suited her at.all. Lol!! I would think that the personalities of littermates would affect a pup. Or that some characteristics may be mistaken for other. Ex. - is a pup calm or is it confident and unflappable? Is a pup dominant or a bit unsure and trying to be top dog? Does a pup have lots of energy or is it just excitable? I'll also note that I picked Kolt up when he was 9.5 weeks old about a week after the last of his littermates had been picked up. So by that time his individual personality sans littermates had definitely blossomed a bit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CptJack Posted July 14, 2015 Report Share Posted July 14, 2015 Littermate behavior almost has to influence things - and I should probably note Molly was one of a litter of two so I imagine things were a bit more extreme in both puppies than they might have otherwise been. Ie: there was a very, very clear 'leader/follower' dynamic going on. I bet her brother blossomed BIG TIME away from Molly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
denice Posted July 14, 2015 Report Share Posted July 14, 2015 I do believe you can see personality developing in pups. Not only when they are in the social setting of a litter but also pack dynamics. As the get to 4 weeks and they are exploring a few usually stand out as the confident ones to go exploring alone and you see the most reservered ones easily. Once you introduce strangers to the mix - be it human or animal - you can see more. Who are first to investigate, who stands back, who hides.... The challenege is matching the pup with the owner and home. The person looking for a pup may think they can handle an active outgoing busy bc but maybe in reality a pup more middle of the road suits them better. A shy pup may just need time away from the litter to discover the world is not so scarey or it may be a fearful pup that is going to take some extra work on the social end of things. There are people and breeders I would trust to make those best guesses but not all of them have the experience or the best interest of the puppy and new owner in mind Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caykuu Posted July 17, 2015 Report Share Posted July 17, 2015 I'd trust a reputable breeder's assessment of pups to an extent, but still with a grain of salt. Puppies at that age in general are a crapshoot, and their temperaments can change very drastically as they grow, depending on the dog. You may luck out or you may not- even the most knowledgable, experienced, and careful breeder may have a 7 week old pup who seems like one thing and then develop into something completely different. Since someone mentioned confidence appearing at 8 weeks old, I'd still say that it is one of those things to take with a grain of salt. As an example, Lancer at 8 weeks~12 weeks was the most unflappable, confident, testing, and slightly overbearing dog who would willingly fling himself into play with large dogs, scolding did not phase him one bit, and very focused- learned all his basic commands at 8 weeks old. I had him completely planned out for competition in agility and flyball. He was the most pushy and forward and largest pup in his litter, and "looked like" he would be one of those intense star dogs. Turns out that after his teen years (where he became extremely fearful of absolutely everything and had severe fear-aggression issues due to one negative experience), he is now an adult who is very submissive, cautious, paranoid, not confident in himself at all in terms of socializing and entering a new environment or meeting new things. His ability to bounce back from negative experience is next to nothing, but I put genetics at fault for that. His "traumatic experience" was frightening, in a way- crazy neighborhood Airedale barked her head off at him- but not something that a puppy/dog with seemingly strong nerves genetically could not overcome. But still very focused on work he enjoys. That's one thing that stuck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5Bordercollies Posted July 17, 2015 Report Share Posted July 17, 2015 Wiyh both the litters, especially the second litter I bred I could tell from about six weeks and especially at eight weeks which pups will be working dogs and which ones would not. Most notably in the second litter there was Meg and Gael, the two little girls. Meg was, from day one, her father's little clone. From the day she laid eyes on a cat, she lived only to herd it, Gael could care less about the cats. If Meg saw the goats or the sheep, you could visibly see her "switch on". Gael never cared for livestock. When they were eight weeks old, a local couple came to choose a little BC girl to add to their family, Meg kept her distance, barking wanting nothing to do with these strangers, Gael within mins was lying chewing on the lady's shoe. Gael is now happily living with them in town, a good, sociable girl who sleeps on her mom and dad's bed. Meg is not fully trained, but will take any chance to work the goats. Hopefully as soon as the kids are old enough, I will train her properly so she can live her dream. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted July 17, 2015 Report Share Posted July 17, 2015 And yet I have a youngster out of lines that all start quite young (I own a bunch of relatives) who only now is really working stock. She just turned 9 months old. Granted she's still young, but all of her relatives would have shown real interest in working from 8 weeks on. Not her. If I were one who was quick to judge, and based on family history, I would have said a couple of months ago that this one wasn't going to be a working dog. Well, it turns out she was just slow to get started, unlike 99% of her family. J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donald McCaig Posted July 17, 2015 Report Share Posted July 17, 2015 Dear Doggers, We reared well-but-accidentally-bred Peg because she was shy and the breeder couldn't socialize her. Peg - natch - stayed on and, since she never showed the least interest in sheep became Anne's pet until Peg was six years old and ran out and gathered the sheep. I don't know, but can imagine that another handler with a different body language might have got her started earlier but maybe not. As Jack Knox said, years ago, "If I could pick the good workers in a litter, I'd quit training and trialing and make a good living picking them." Donald McCaig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted July 17, 2015 Report Share Posted July 17, 2015 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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