Agression at the Vet

[Kylos86]

Hi everyone,

 

I have searched this site loads for answers but none mention this.

 

We had our boy Django 'fixed' last Friday and he is doing great, we took him to the vet yesterday to check the wound was healing ok. Thats when the trouble started.

 

The vet attempted to take his temperature from 'behind' and he wouldnt allow this and growled a little and spun out of position, she gave up on that and I managed to get him to roll on his back and show her his wound. She immediately said we she could put us in touch with a behaviourist as this type of thing should be nipped in the bud and a dog should allow her to doe whatever she wants with no fuss.

 

From Djangos point of view she did not greet him or make a fuss. Did not allow him to acclimatise to her or his surroundings she just went in for the kill without warning so I think the slight growl was a mild reaction.

 

However he has stitches that will need to be removed and I have been doing a little training with him so he gets used to being manipulated for future vet visits and as soon as I touch his stitches he moves his head towards my hand as a warning (he is easy to control as he has a buster coller on) he doesnt quite growl but he is certainly communicating a dislike and will not keep still. I think if he did not have the buster collar he would definately 'mouth' my hand (not quite a bite but applying pressure with the mouth) I'm afraid the vet will be unable to keep him still long enought to remove the stitches and he will have to muzzled no doubt.

 

My question is has anybody else had the problem and how do you deal with it? he is the perfect dog in every other way except when you poke and prod him in painful areas errrm duhh will he need to be sedated?? Is there anything I can do to improve his tolerance to being examined??

 

Thanks in advance

[GentleLake]

I haven't had the problem of a dog who reacted like this to a vet, but I did used to go to a vet who was very brusque with my dogs, much like you describe this one being.

 

I go to a different vet now.

 

In his case, I think he was busy and perhaps overworked and so he dispensed with any niceties with the animals. For my dogs it frightened them. One dog who'd never been afraid of anyone in her life (at least in her life with me; she was adopted as an adult), would start trembling when we went in the door. My therapy dog, again a pretty stable dog with people or he wouldn't be a therapy dog, would hide behind my legs.

 

I think you're absolutely right in working with the dog to help him accept handling. It may well be that he may never offer any more than the warnings he is now, but I'd understand if a vet wanted to muzzle him to be safe.

 

But I wouldn't (and didn't) tolerate a vet who can't take a minute to make the animal feel comfortable. It just makes sense from a safety perspective, and from a client's point of view, who wants someone intimidating their pet and potentially causing them to be dangerous to handle?

 

My dogs love going to the new vet. She has a drawer full of treats that they run straight for and she spends some time fussing over them so that when it's time to do the exam they'll let her do anything, as she's giving treats the whole time.

 

I don't expect that all vets will go to this length, but I do expect them not to make things more unpleasant for the animals than it needs to be.

 

If your vet isn't the practice owner, I'd be inclined to write the owner a note explaining what happened and tell staff I want to see a different vet for the follow up appointment. If it's the practice, well I'd still write that note, and still request a different vet if there is one . . . or I'd just be looking for a different practice altogether.

 

Best wishes as you proceed with this.

[gcv-border]

To me, it sounds like he is still experiencing some pain. If so, his reaction is reasonable. Hopefully, the pain will subside (if it is still painful at this point).

 

I agree that the vet should have been more understanding to the fact that he may still be sensitive in that area.

 

At my vet's, she usually has a tech hold the dog, and I stand in front of the dog and shove treats in his mouth (at least for the first year or so).

 

Talk to your vet about letting you take the stitches out. That is what I have done for the last couple of surgeries.

 

And I don't think that this level of reaction calls for a behaviorist. I do believe that your dog should allow YOU to touch him all over, but I do not believe that privilege extends to a person who manhandles the dog.

 

As an aside: about 15 years ago when I took a beginning obedience class with my rescue dog, the instructor's view was that we should never tell a dog to 'stay' when on the vet's examining table. It wasn't fair to ask a dog to 'stay' in a location/situation where they felt in danger.

[CptJack]

The day my vet reacts to a dog who is pain and possibly frightened growling at them by telling me they have a serious behavioral issue is the day I find a new vet.

[aschlemm]

If you've been going to the same vet for a while and this is the first time you've had a negative experience it could have been a bad day for that particular vet. Not to excuse it but things can get very stressful (especially in a small practice with 1 or 2 vets.) If you really like the practice you are going to you could try a different vet but in the meantime I'd work on having your dog stand on a table and lifting a foot or tail, looking into his ears, that type of thing. Also, you could talk to the front desk people and come for a visit when the office is quiet. Have receptionists feed him treats, stand him on the scales and weigh him, stand him on the exam table. I work as a Vet Tech and we have clients do this. One man couldn't get his German Shepherd in the building so he came over every week or so and worked with her until she'd come in and stand on the scales while we fed her treats. I always encourage people to do things like that. It's so much easier on everyone if your dog is ill or needs surgery and the dog has an accepting, relaxed attitude about what we do. I really think you can have a better outcome from a serious illness if the pet is comfortable with us. I'm more than happy to walk a pet on IV fluids 4+ times a day and sit in a run and hand feed canned food (I'll even make airplane noises if it helps) but it is easier if the pet isn't growling at me or trying to bite.

[urge to herd]

A year ago, I had a serious injury that caused a horrendous amount of pain. The thought of being touched during treatment made me break into a cold sweat and get sick to my stomach, to the point of almost throwing up. When I did have to endure touch from a physical therapist, I flinched away.

 

I got through it, and am much, much better. My point is, I understood what was happening. If I hadn't, I'd have needed a muzzle, let me tell you.

 

At the least, I'd have a talk with the vet. I agree with Jovi and the others that your dog should allow you to touch him anywhere. In my experience, maintaining a regular practice of routine handling makes for easier times when you need to pull a nasty sticker out of a paw or get a tick out of a tender spot.

 

I wouldn't characterize what you describe as aggression, but self-protection. I'd not trust a vet very far who told me my dog needed a behaviorist for not liking to be touched in a painful area.

 

Good luck with it all.

 

Ruth and SuperGibbs

[Kylos86]

Hi,

 

Thank for your responses so far and I'm glad others agree the vet was over reacting, I have a keen interest in canine behaviour since first researching getting a BC and I think because Django is a little wolf like he looks scary to the untrained eye, even my partner often mistakes normal play or communication with aggression. I would expect this vet to know this though and will be looking elsewhere for any further treatment required (hopefully only checkups etc) she even went as far as to say it's a BC thing because they are 'all' headstrong. It was as if she had never had a problem with any dog she had treated prior to Django.

 

I will be doing a lot more work with Django so he is comfortable being handled by me and my partner making it a pleasant experience.

 

aschlemm I need to find a practice more like you describe you sound wonderful, it was 9am so maybe the vet woke up on the wrong side of the bed who knows but we have seen a male vet previously with no problems so I will request him to remove the stitches.

Edited July 8, 2015 by Kylos86

[gcv-border]

....... it's a BC thing because they are 'all' headstrong.

Pffffffttt

[GentleLake]

^^ Yeah. Pfffft.

[CptJack]

...Headstrong? Does she know what that word means? That's HYSTERICAL

[aschlemm]

Actually, I work for a vet who wakes up on the wrong side of the bed. But, I've known her for years and I've come to realize that her crabbiness stems from caring too much. She's not fond of medicine cases and we had three hospitalized cases (a Chihuahua with pneumonia, a Dachshund with a disc issue and a cat with hepatic lipidosis.) All three cases were time consuming both in treatment, maintenance, owner updating and emotional stress (for everyone.) All owners REALLY loved their pets, but had serious money issues and all three cases weren't likely to have a positive outcome. The vet was seriously crabby, but only with us (the employees.) Unfortunately, two of the cases did end up being euthanized. The cat with hepatic lipidosis is still hospitalized and I'm still feeding him from a syringe every two hours, wiping his face and spending time brushing him because it makes him purr. If this cat eats on his own I will do cartwheels down the hallway!!!!!

PPPFFFTTTT to Border Collies being headstrong. My grumpy vet wants me to own one who is "Hell on wheels" the four I've owned have been "too easy."

[highway61]

Last year my bc saw the vet for his first annual and it went pretty much the same way. So they casually put a muzzle on him and he still didn't like the anal thermometer so the vet just said "it's ok, we'll just pass this time". He also said "your dog's not aggressive, he's just scared". That's same response I would have expected your vet to tell you but instead suggested a behaviorist?

[Kylos86]

PPPFFFFTTTT indeed

.....yep I dont think she's a great lover of a breed who can outsmart her lol she just didn't like Django at all which is a first as everyone who has met him has loved him and when I meet new people at the park they have alway heard of the famous Border Collie called Django with one blue eye and one brown eye....oh and that tall lad who is always with him haha

 

heres a few pics of us in the woods and atop mount Snowdon in Wales UK enjoy....

[aschlemm]

Love the pics. Yeah, that vet just isn't a Border Collie person. Perhaps she met a really tricky one.

We have two Borders who come to our practice that are tricky. The one I always hold and the owner stands in front and talks to her (she is muzzled at the owners request, she would bite but due to fear.) The other came to our practice with the reputation of needing sedation for pretty much anything. She is wise to the muzzle and will bite the owner without hesitation so she gets short acting sedation.

[CptJack]

I've noticed that some people seem to react really strongly to Molly. When she's being reactive, that makes sense to me - she puts on a heck of a display. When they are someone who has seen her acting that way it makes sense to me.

But I have seen people who supposedly like and know dogs can meet her when she's between enthusiastically happy and apathetic and end up afraid of her. She isn't big, she isn't wolfish, and she isn't *usually* rude (I'll give you that sometimes she is overcome and wants to climb someone). There is just something about her that makes some people nervous/uneasy.

 

Or BC have more of a reputation than I am aware of. I honestly do not know. It's really odd to me that as a whole people are more inclined to be much more 'careful' with her than my 120lb GSD mix, though, even if she's being calm and friendly and he's being standoffish and/or wary about something.

 

All of that out of the way, Molly's a 'tricky' dog at the vet. By which I mean I muzzle her and talk to her and we get in and out as fast as possible. She's gotten better at many, many things but the vet is not one of them. That just seems to keep getting worse.

[diane allen]

I have a young dog (3 yo) who simply doesn't like anyone getting in her face, for any reason - until she spends a LOT of time getting to know someone. I've taken her into vets' offices just for treats - a lot. I've also accustomed her to a soft muzzle (she can still eat small treats with it on), more treats, more visits. She hasn't been in pain, she just has that space issue. It might be a tad better than it used to be, but I don't think she will *ever* be totally comfortable in a vet's office. My vet is superb about getting to know the dog, letting her sniff around, feeding her treats - but knows not to put his face near hers sans muzzle. Some dogs are just that way.

 

And yep, new vet is in order.

[Donald McCaig]

Dear Doggers,

 

Some dogs really resent getting castrated. There are lots of stupid vets out there - I once had a dog spoiled for vet visits by the Vet School at Virginia Tech (our nearest too-complicated-for-local-vet) org.

 

 

I've had the same vet practice for thirty years.

 

Last time I went in the vet, I had my leash slung round my neck and the receptionist said, "Why, Mr. McCaig. This is the first time I ever saw you with a leash."

 

Which interested me because: when a dog might cause a disruption off leash, he'll be onleash in that reception and I ALWAYS have some kind of leash just in case (the office is filled with uncontrolled lunatics, there's someone terrified of my off lead dogs, etc.)

 

Perhaps the one time I brought in six off lead and tucked them under the waiting room chairs created a legend which has been embellished because, surely, the "never saw you with a leash" receptionist has seen me with my dogs ON leash before.

 

My vets and I have an understanding. I bring my dogs in however I chose and take them all the way into the surgery cages (if that's what's required). In exchange, my dogs have NEVER caused or been party to any disruption in the waiting room and NEVER nipped a vet or staffer.

 

Mutual respect goes a long way.

 

Most vets in the practice have attended my sheepdog trials though what they take away is more like what any civilian takes away than what one would expect from sophisticated animal practitioners. One said, "I never saw so many happy dogs." Another, "The dogs weren't overweight!" and my favorite: "At the portopot there were three dogs lying down, just waiting for their owner to come out!"

 

Some vets are dog savvy. Others, not so much.

 

Donald McCaig

[mbc1963]

I wonder how the vet would react if she were unwillingly brought, in pain and after a fairly traumatic surgical procedure she didn't understand, to an intensely smelly building where a complete stranger tried to shove something up her butt.

[GentleLake]

Some vets are dog savvy. Others, not so much.

 

I know it's a cliché, but apt to say that truer words were never spoken.

 

I've often wondered why some vets have chose the profession. Maybe they were animal lovers when they started and became jaded? It's not always an easy life, and not often truly lucrative.

[Maralynn]

The first part wouldn't bother me too much. Yup, she should have let him warm up but everyone forgets something now and then. I would be bothered that she didn't cut him a bit of slack due to the situation and that she thinks a dog should submit to anything automatically as well as the sweeping generalization that the breed is headstrong.

 

Desensitizing to touch is a good plan of action. Think of the different ways he might get handled at the vet and practice at home. I'd also be proactively muzzle training - peanut butter inside a cup is a great way to start with that. I also take my dog's temps at home from time to time so that isn't foreign to them. Teaching a chin rest in your hand is another thing that could make vet visits easier for everyone.

[emilyfalk]

Dear Doggers,

 

Last time I went in the vet, I had my leash slung round my neck and the receptionist said, "Why, Mr. McCaig. This is the first time I ever saw you with a leash."

 

Which interested me because: when a dog might cause a disruption off leash, he'll be onleash in that reception and I ALWAYS have some kind of leash just in case (the office is filled with uncontrolled lunatics, there's someone terrified of my off lead dogs, etc.)

 

Perhaps the one time I brought in six off lead and tucked them under the waiting room chairs created a legend...

 

Donald McCaig

Hi Donald,

 

While I applaud you for having such good control over your dogs, from the viewpoint of a vet, I would encourage you and everyone else to consider having your dogs on leash in the waiting room. You may have control of your dogs, but who knows what may walk through that door (talking dogs AND people). What happens if another dog jumps yours while you are chatting with the receptionist, paying your bill, however you may become temporarily distracted. My dogs are certainly not fighters, but if jumped, I can't say for sure that at least some wouldn't fight back. Or, maybe one loses it's cool for a brief moment and decides to chase the clinic cat, or bolts out the door, or...or...It only takes a split second for something bad to happen, and a leash goes a long way to prevent that.

 

As has been discussed, the vet clinic can be a highly emotional and artificial environment for some dogs. You just don't know what could happen. Please think about having your dog on a leash even if you feel sure you would never need one.

 

And to the OP and others, I'm sorry for how some of the vets have acted. There are a million reasons why (busy, bad day, not dog-savvy)...so I guess my recommendation is that if their poor behavior happens frequently, then it would be time to look for a new vet

[alligande]

2 of my border collies had to wear a muzzle if there was any type of bodily intervention, the vets could handle them take their heart beat etc, but both thought needles and a thermometer crossed the line. It was simple I held their heads and talked nice, we popped a muzzle on briefly for safety, procedure carried out and the vet was the giver of treats. I think your vet really over reacted in their suggestion, I would just make sure I did not go back, I always requested a specific vet, just because we always went to her and it never bothered anyone.

 

Edited: Both of those dogs loved going to the vets, lots of people to fuss over them etc, they both had health issues later in life but never lost their love of visiting the vet despite being prodded and poked, and they never gave up their determination to have a nip when something hurt.

[Riika]

Duke used to love going to the vet. After he was neutered, he gets quite anxious. Especially because both times he has gone after it was to take cheat grass out of his ears which hurts!

He is not aggressive however. I just work on letting him relax and giving him treats. Not the vet's treats-he won't touch them!

What I also do with all of my dogs, is take at least one with me every time I have to go into the clinic. Even if it is just to pick up something for the farm. That way, every visit to the vet is not a painful or scary one and I think that helps them greatly.

 

As Donald, my dogs are usually off leash when we go. However, I'm always carrying a leash for the reasons he listed. And if the parking lot is full when I get there, I'll just leash up before I go in as it is guaranteed to have a bunch of lunatic dogs.

 

Emily, to address your concerns, as I said above, if it looks like there is several dogs, I will leash. And I pick a seat away from the door so that nothing can burst through without warning. And when paying the receptionist, my dogs go on the off side of me which puts them in a corner and another dog can't jump him without going through me.

The clinic doesn't have a cat.

 

I know you didn't list every concern about off leash dogs, but I think that I am viligent and my dogs are very well trained and can be off leash very safely.

 

Personally, I think all dog owners should take the immense amount of time to train their dog to be just as trustworthy off leash as on.

[CptJack]

Honestly, I would wet my pants if I walked into a vet's office and saw an unleashed dog, and I'm pretty sure Molly would wet herself in terror, too.

 

The thing is, YOU know you are vigilant and your dog can be off leash safely, but *I* don't know you from Adam. I have to go into the vet's office - I can't turn around and leave, since I'm there for medical care for my pet. When I walk in and the dog on the other end of my leash is is Molly (who is already stressed at the vet and can be reactive) I have no assurance that your dog isn't going to walk up to her and give her a friendly sniff, resulting in a brawl with me in the middle.

Especially since she has some issues to start with because she was trounced by an off leash dog in PetSmart who's owner claimed up one side and down the other that was both under control/that well trained and friendly.

 

That's stressful. Unnecessarily stressful.

I don't doubt your ability to control your dog, but my blood pressure really doesn't need it and it isn't as though my dog isn't more worried about dogs who are off leash than those that are, too (trust me, she can see a leash and knows what it means) and more likely to stress, react, and flip at them.

 

I just... why do I have to stress and why does my dog have to stress when you could resolve the issue by clipping a leash to your dog's collar and causing neither you nor dog distress, in a setting where honestly no one has a choice of NOT being there, and leashes are expected? (Unlike, say, a dog park where no one has to go and no one expects leashes).

 

Not an attack just a fairly plaintive 'but why?' Why does you not wanting to use a leash inside a vet's office I *must* go to, with my dog, trump me really, really not wanting to add another layer of stress to the necessity of a vet visit for me and my dog? (General you, and general me)

[GentleLake]

Why does you not wanting to use a leash inside a vet's office I *must* go to, with my dog, trump me really, really not wanting to add another layer of stress to the necessity of a vet visit for me and my dog? (General you, and general me)

 

Given that the handler's stress can be transmitted to the dog, making the experience that much more worrisome for the dog, that's a really reasonable question.

 

It seems to me that taking your (general you) dog to the vet unleashed, no matter how well behaved or controlled it is, can be really inconsiderate for other people and animals there.