Agression at the Vet

[Sue R]

I was at the vet's the other, standing at the counter with Megan on leash, waiting to check in to have her blood drawn for some testing. One of the receptionists, whom I have known for a long time, looked past me out the door and said simply, "Big dog coming in." I turned to watch and a man with a large, coal-black German Shepherd came through the door. That dog was staring and focusing on Megan before he even got his shoulders through the doorway. He was only "under control" because his good-sized male owner had hold of his stout leash. Had he been loose, I think he would have made straight for my dog.

 

The receptionist quietly said to me after, when there was no one else to hear, that that man has five black GSDs, all with the same personality. I don't think she looks forward to seeing him bring any of his beautiful but aggressive dogs in through the door. I noticed they got the man and his dog into an exam room very quickly. Of course, the dog was intact but only under control because the owner had a firm grip on his sturdy leash.

 

There are a few employees at that clinic who will warn me if someone is coming in with "a dog that needs to be avoided", and I am grateful for that. Too many people are clueless, do not train their dogs, do not notice signals of aggression or fear, and don't pay attention to what's going on.

[rushdoggie]

People are stupid. I watch others let their dog walk right up to strange dogs and cats in carriers and sniff the animal in the carrier even though its CLEAR the animal in teh carrier is freaking out. Both owners just watch and I end up being teh one to say something.

 

I guess I don't see *why* anyone would do the no leash thing. No matter how well trained your dogs are they are not robots and sh*t could happen. I would never take my dog in a public place off leash no matter how well trained. What is the point? Is it really that hard to hold onto a leash? Is it to show off?

 

If I saw an off leash dog in the waiting room I would panic a little, because I would have no idea about someone else's dog or training. So I would be stressed even when your dog did nothing.

[SS Cressa]

I realize this is off topic now.

 

I have taught all of my dogs to accept handling from people from day one. Also vet visits are not always bad.

 

I have trained my dogs on leash and off leash in public. While i normally always have my dogs leash near streets... i have been practicing what they should do if i accidentally drop their leash. Idk about you but when i slip on ice or if i twist my ankle, im not able to keep a hold of the leash unless it is tied to me. I need my dogs to know how to respond with or without a leash. And when you are blinded in pain you dont want to worry about your dogs getting hit.

[CptJack]

I actually do train my dogs off leash - both for agility and accidental leash drops or equipment failure. If their leashes go suddenly slack, they freeze. I think that's a GOOD training thing to think about, to teach, and to stress for the safety of the dog. I don't really do that near streets though because frankly I do not want to be responsible for a car accident, and a dog running into a road could easily be that.

I don't really WALK them near streets anyway though. They're just not really part of our lives.

[Shetlander]

My dogs are well behaved in public - almost always (Quinn has a bubble with strange dogs who want to greet and Chili has peed the last two times at the chiropractic vet). I don't run across better behaved dogs when I am out but I do not have the kind of control Mr. McCaig describes with his dogs.

 

What I find interesting is my main vet has taken to keeping the waiting room as empty as possible. The staff frequently immediately usher clients to rooms or have them wait before exiting a room until another client leaves the front area. This is a fairly new development so I don't know if there were incidents that prompted this change or if my vet is being proactive in crowd control.

[denice]

You have to take into consideration the vast array of dogs and owners that come into the vet office. Most of them are loved but untrained. They are allowed to do whatever they wish 99% of the time. The owners can not brush their dog much less train it to walk on a lead nicely or teach it basic manners. Most dogs have NOTHING required of them, if they do not pee in the house they are great. I am often told "He doesn't like it" does not matter if that is combing, nail trimming, walking nicely, getting petted by a stranger, being examined by a vet. Often my responce is " it is too bad that he doesn't like it, still has to be done." Why do we think the dogs should be given a choice? Do you allow your kids get away with bad behavior or not do things they should because they do not like it.

It is our RESPONCIBILTY as owners to raise the dog to ACCEPT handling everywhere and anywhere,and to act appropriately in public - ON and OFF leash. A dog can slip a lead FAST, chew through a lead or we can drop it. They should not the focus of control. Tip toeing around an issue is not going to sove it.

Many many dogs growl at some point. IF it is not addressed then and there MOST will develop a problem. Be that because of fear or agression does not matter. It needs dealt with ASAP. Maybe that is holding the dog firmly and going ahead with the temp or exam and the dog learning that is what not a big deal and that behavior is not acceptable. I recently had a 6 mo old bc to the vet. She was fine for the male vet to come in and she went up to him for attention. When the female vet walked in she growled, She got in trouble BY ME. I didn't ask her Why she was unhappy that is unexceptable. The vet is a friend so she took extra time with her and we had no further problem till she lifted her down and let go then the pup turned fast around like she may bite. Again she was in trouble. I let her know that that was not necessarily. So I asked the vet to lift her up on the table again and put her down again. No problem. No problem because we took care of them and there. We didn't wait, we didn't ignore it, we didn't just pass it off with she is scared excuse. Yes she is timid, yes we are working on it, but she needs handled by strangers to get over it. She does not do it with me. She needs put in uncomfortable surrounding with people she does not know and she needs to work through it. She will continue to get the message when she acts correctly all is good when she does not she gets scolded appropriatly.

So yes your vet should bring to your attention the behavior needs addressed. Neutering is not a huge deal. Tender or not I want to be able to do anything that may need done. I personally would have been disappointed she allowed the dog to win that one because that sets up the wrong message for the next time.

If addressed now it may be a few minutes and never a problem again. Let him win that confrontation 3 times and see how quickly they can decide what else they do not like.

[Donald McCaig]

Ms. Denice writes (in part) "It is our RESPONCIBILTY as owners to raise the dog to ACCEPT handling everywhere and anywhere"

 

Or to be willing and able everywhere and anywhere to prevent dopes from handling them.

 

Donald McCaig

[Shetlander]

Ms. Denice writes (in part) "It is our RESPONCIBILTY as owners to raise the dog to ACCEPT handling everywhere and anywhere"

 

Or to be willing and able everywhere and anywhere to prevent dopes from handling them.

 

I run interference for my dogs frequently. For instance,I do not let strangers force themselves on the Lhasa. The Border Collie is happy to meet and greet (people). I also don't like strange dogs coming up to mine for a whole variety of reasons, and generally succeed in preventing that. I agree being handled at the vet and groomer are not optional and my dogs seem to understand that, though the Lhasa has and shares many opinions. In close to 30 years of living with Lhasas, I haven't figured out how to shut down all commentary. They are very upfront dogs. But mainly Chili is focused on earning treats and admiration from the staff so it all works out.

[CptJack]

Yep and preventing dopes from handling them or interacting with them is why I'm prepared to kick loose dogs who prove themselves to not be in control and approach mine. Since I don't know if they're dopes or not. Don't approach, no problem, but I'm still reading myself for either a shouting match with the owner or to punt their dog away from mine with whatever force is necessary to prevent contact.

 

Not really an issue most of the time, but every once in a while it's a thing. The last time it was a thing it was a terrier thing int he park and was not friendly. I kicked it away - not hard enough to damage it but to get it off? absolutely. The owner wasn't happy, but she had two easy options for avoiding: leash, or actual training appropriate to the situation.

 

My responsibility is to the safety of my dogs, not the other ones hanging out in any given location. They can take responsibility of the safety of their dog by either having it under danged good control or leashing it.

[simba]

Eh, being examined by a vet without biting them is one thing, but I have no issues if a dog doesn't like being petted by a stranger. I don't have to instantly love everyone I meet, neither do they. The fact that I'm friendly and like most people doesn't mean my dog has to be the same- and they tend to be more reserved than me, and that's okay.

 

Edit: plus I do think there is value in asking a dog 'why'. Reassurance can work really well on a dog who's growling because it's scared, no matter how stupid it seems to reassure something that's growling.

[mbc1963]

I think it's very important to see the difference between the goal and the path we take to get there.

 

My old dog was fabulous for his last five years: he'd let the vet poke and prod him, take treats from strangers, happily walk in crowded parks, joyfully move through the loud, crowded, busy flea market. He lay calmly on the floor while I removed the stitches from his chest after surgery.

 

But in his first year with me? He was muzzled at the vet. He freaked out when close to other dogs. Men looking him in the eye terrified him. Fast movements. Bicycles. Noises. Crowds. He was incredibly stressed by all those things. My main goal was keeping him safe so he would not bite someone and be put to sleep.

 

If you brought home a blank-slate puppy, or a perfect dog who was able to tolerate handling by strangers from day one, congratulations! You're very lucky. The rest of us who have fearful dogs, or dogs with baggage, keep that goal in mind - but in the meantime, we protect our dogs and keep them safe from things that might trigger them to end up euthanized. That might mean muzzling at the vet until fear is conquered. It certainly means keeping them safe and distant from unleashed dogs in crowded, stressful veterinary waiting rooms.

 

I would hope that my vet is willing to work with the simple tools and training methods available, for the few minutes my dog is with her.

[Maralynn]

I think there's a huge difference between pushy, bratty behavior and scared behavior.

 

While I absolutely agree that owners often set their dogs up for failure through a lack of solid leadership and basic training, I also know that sometimes you've got to work within the parameters that you've got. I always insisted that I held my Missy dog for blood draws/shots/etc because I knew she had trust/fear issues and she'd be fine with my holding her. She did come close to snapping at a vet once but she was in there for an ear issue and he bent over and tried to hug her. She threw off every warning sign in the book with no avail. I didn't fault her for it as she had just been poked and prodded and handled it very well.

 

Bottom line? I don't allow my dogs to be stinkers. I do recognize real fear issues and work through those when possible.

[GentleLake]

^^ Great post. (Edited: Was referring to mcb1963, though Mara's, which came in as I was typing, is good, too. )

 

I understand working towards a dog's being comfortable with handling and sometimes judiciously letting a dog know when it's not appropriate to growl at the vet.

 

But I also respect that my dogs have feelings too and that a growl is their means of communicating their discomfort with certain situations.

 

Of course we don't want it to escalate, and sometimes we need to be able to help them understand that there are situation where they have to accept things they don't like.

 

But correcting a dog for communicating discomfort can also backfire and lead to a dog who won't offer a warning but go straight to a bite.

 

We really do need to be careful about how we approach these communications. Given the scenario the OP describes (and the puppy later), I probably would have told the dog he was being silly and reassured him while restraining him so that the vet could do what she needed to do. It would most likely have achieved the same goal in the moment as letting the dog know he was "in trouble" but without the risk of creating negative associations or repercussions down the road. I would have followed it up by working on desensitizing the dog to being handled.

 

If they keep it up when there's not a good reason to, then I might look at another approach.

[alligande]

I never had a problem using a muzzle for the vets safety when sharp needles where involved, there really was no end goal as far as I could see, happened a couple of times a year for about a minute. There are plenty of humans who hate needles, and both those border collies hated them. The before and after part of the visit they were fine with been prodded and poked with fingers, like others I always held my dogs so they did not get the chance to snap, but I would never have wanted to take the chance. If they had been scared of the vet I would have worked on that, but once the needle went away then it was bouncy body language.

[Donald McCaig]

Dear Doggers,

 

I've insisted vets use muzzles on two of my dogs who might have nipped them. No drama.

 

Donald McCaig

[Kylos86]

Hi everyone,

 

SInce we are back on topic I thought I would give an update, your responses so far have been very helpful.

 

So this morning we go to have Django's stitches removed and it was much better as the vet made a fuss and gave him treats but unfortunately he is too smart for those tricks and had to be muzzled whilst she inpected the wound which wasn't pleasant for anyone, he just new and went a little wild.

 

He had some fluid build up and swelling near the stitches so she did not want to remove them incase the pressure forced the incision open again. So now we have to wait until the fluid is reabsorbed and have them removed on Friday another 5 days!!! I just constantly feel anxious about putting him in that situation over and over.

 

I just can't wait to get back to normal I know its the right thing to have done but I can't help regret doing it to him because of the stress it is causing us all. I guess once the stitches are out all will be well but it cant come soon enough!!!!

[Maralynn]

Remember, your mood fuels your dog's mood. Don't feel guilty, approach it with a calm, confident "this is what we're doing" attitude.

[denice]

Maralynn is exactly right. At the very least You are adding to his anxiety and might be the causeing it. Dogs are very in tune to their surrounds. Border Collies maybe even more so. They can pick up on small changes in attitude/ emotion. How do you think they can effect livestock in a pasture before they ever walk into the gate, they are reading the situation every moment.

If you are confident in yourself and approach life and your dog that way you will have a different dog than if you are a worrier and always concerned. The dog will worry about everything also.

I can take a leash from an owner and the dog changes its behavior in seconds. Hand it back and they return to what they were doing.

There is no reason to feel anxious, for either of you. If the worst thing he ever deals with is suture removal he will be one super lucky dog. I would expect him to lie still enough I could remove stitches myself - alone. Heck I have even put in stitches alone with a dog just by asking him to lie still. Two minutes being uncomfotable while I put two stitches in is lots better than an hour to the vet and a long drawn out thing.

If you are that worried your dog would be better if you left the room, honestly. It is kinda like kids that act up in front of parents but they behave if the parents ignore them or leave the room.

[rushdoggie]

So this morning we go to have Django's stitches removed and it was much better as the vet made a fuss and gave him treats but unfortunately he is too smart for those tricks and had to be muzzled whilst she inpected the wound which wasn't pleasant for anyone, he just new and went a little wild.

Go to Petsmart, get your own muzzle. Teach him to wear it for treats, teach him to willingly stick his nose in for the cookie, feed the cookie while its on, then take it off. Muzzle on: cookie. Muzzle off: cookies end. DO it at home first, then outside, then in public.

 

Eventually have friends play muzzle on.

 

Teach him to accept restraint slowly, starting at home, working your way up. Always be calm, quiet voice, as soon as he relaxes into the restraint relax your grip so your hands/body become a guide, not a force.

I just can't wait to get back to normal I know its the right thing to have done but I can't help regret doing it to him because of the stress it is causing us all. I guess once the stitches are out all will be well but it cant come soon enough!!!!

 

Like others have said, your attitude helps a lot.

 

I don't agree with punishing a fearful dog for aggressing at a scary thing. But sometimes we need to do scary things, and sometimes they have to deal.

 

My dog is frozen, terrified at the vety, pupils so wide his iris nearly disappears. But he accepts it, I am there, he is comfortable with the restraint, the exam/etc can get on quickly with no person afraid of getting bit.

 

And in truth, he relaxes a little when muzzled. Partly I think his fear stems from "I don't know what to do" and with the muzzle on, biting is no longer an option so he relaxes and accepts a lot better.

[highway61]

He had some fluid build up and swelling near the stitches so she did not want to remove them incase the pressure forced the incision open again.

 

Sorry you're going through all this. You say this is from "getting fixed"? I had my 18 month dog neutered last Fall and they were the stitches that just dissolve, no second appointment needed. No party hat either, guess we just got lucky.

[Kylos86]

HI,

 

Another update ladies,gents and doggies.

 

We where supposed to wait until friday as advised by the now known as 'Nasty Nurse' (we wrongly assumed she was a Vet) but we where not happy with her advice and so today we called and requested we see the actual Vet.

 

No words can describe how amazingly different the experience was, straight away he said 'lets move to a larger examination room' which I was prepared to request as Django is almost 55lbs and 24" tall so he's a big boy and I thought the small room made the situation worse. We muzzled him as a precaution which he doesn't mind at all and there was a slight struggle but the Vet and another nurse restrained him without a fuss and he lay still and allowed the stitches to be removed without any teeth or growling. I could not believe my eyes!!! The Vet also said the stitches should have already been removed as they are a foreign body and he was rejecting them, needless to say we made are feeling known about the 'Nasy Nurse' who made us feel like we where bad parents because she didn't handle or wasn't prepared to handle Django properly.

 

Suffice to say we are all relieved and he has a course of antibiotics just in case, it just goes to show how much difference a Vet/Nurses attitude can make I mean she could of caused more aggression in him if we continued to see her just by her attitude towards him.

 

Today was a good day until a jungle dog got loose and attacked Django at the dog park, we are friendly with the owners but he is always kept leashed because he is a rescue and due to his unpredictability but got loose today, I had to kick him away put Django in a down and basically make myself sound scary and chase him, he got the message and luckily he only got hold of the hair on Djangos bum. Django was ready to fight back but due to the stress and the risk of injury I took the defensive route myself, on the plus side he now knows I can protect him.

 

Hopefully thats the end of the stress for a while, thanks for all your help

 

edit in my previous post I mentioned being anxious, what I meant was I was anxious after visiting the surgery because of the way it made me feel, when in any situation I think Django will be unsure/scared I'm always confident and calm and he is very good at following my lead almost like he knows what I'm thinking, the situation with the attack is a perfect example, as soon as I took control he became at ease and waited for my instruction, afterwards he was not phased at all and wanted his ball

Edited July 15, 2015 by Kylos86

[urge to herd]

That is some good news! Sorry you had the ordeal with the nurse/vet tech, and very glad to hear all went well with the real vet. You're right, it makes a huge difference.

 

And keeping myself calm at a vet visit is my first priority. I'm no good to my critters if I'm anxious. Hope the alllllll your other vet visits go as smoothly as this one.

 

And I kinda hope that nasty vet tech gets at least a stern talking to.

 

Ruth and SuperGibbs

[mbc1963]

I'm relieved it was the nurse/tech and not the vet also. I expect more from a vet - with all the training - than I would from a tech.

 

Congrats on your better-behaved dog!