Found our Puppies Prozac

[chene]

I don't have anything to add as far as the staring, but I just wanted to say that I really appreciate that you seem to be listening and not getting angry even when there are some sharp comments directed at you. I honestly don't think a poor choice of semantics ("hypnotizing") is worth criticizing. That's really interesting about Dublin though, is he still the same inside?

[Gloria Atwater]

As I said, crate training - done properly - is not jail. The dog is content, comfortable and happy. If he becomes fearful or aggressive while in the crate, then something is being done entirely and completely wrong.

A correctly trained crate is simply a safe, secure, comfortable place for a dog to sleep. Not a storage cabinet, not a prison cell, not a torture device. My dogs like their crates and choose them on purpose, even now when the doors are left open all the time. Furthermore, if a dog is ever injured and requires crate rest, it's helpful for the dog to be comfortable in his confinement so he can heal properly.

I'm going away, now.

~ Gloria

[B Point]

 

 

Uh ... no. Dogs cannot hypnotize each other. Perhaps your terrier simply responds to her by lying down, because a prolonged, direct stare can be construed as a challenge among dogs and your terrier is quite generous to allow her this and react by lying down.

 

Things like this are why we respond rather sharply to you. You don't know the breed and you draw some befuddling conclusions about them.

 

As for crates, no, they are NOT a way to "jail" a dog. My dogs are grown and have long since graduated to the freedom of the house. But both my border collies choose, of their own volition, to sleep in their crates at night with the doors open. A properly trained crate is not a jail. It's a den and a safe, private place that the dog learns to love.

 

It's okay to not agree with crates, but practicing some diplomacy might be to your benefit. You'd raise a lot fewer hackles if you learned to qualify your posts with things like, "crates aren't for me," rather than stating that crates are "just a way to jail a dog when you decide you cant give them attention." We're not lazy dog owners! Some of us actually have to leave the house from time to time, and we prefer not to leave our puppies free to chew wires and electrocute themselves, or eat entire swathes of carpet or linoleum and end up in the vet hospital...in a crate.

Regards,

 

Gloria

 

Thought I'd add a bit of irony to your fine post Gloria.. edit.. Rats, you posted right before me.. I'll leave it anyway... because with all that has happened with my pup, not being used to and enjoying his crate would truly have made it all the more sad....

[Mark Billadeau]

when I am gone she tears up anything she can find of mine then cries over it. yes her obsession is me.

 

Crating her while you're gone will prevent her from tearing stuff up and potentially consuming items that can cause digestive tract blockages requiring surgery to save her life. There are many things caretakers do for the good of their charges that may make their charges unhappy. They frequently don't like getting poked with needles, wearing a collar, wearing a leash, riding in a vehicle, going to the vet, not jumping on people, not counter surfing, not steeling food off our plate, etc. They learn to accept them because we caretakers teach them this is what we expect and since they want to please us they accept them.

 

[Scoutthebc]

HJTRAS, I am a new BC owner (though not new to dogs), so this observation is not coming from someone who feels they are in an exclusive club and doesn't want to let you in. FWIW, this seems to be the opinion you've concluded from the forum and I think it misses the mark entirely. That said, even from the perspective of an owner of breeds with less drive and intensity, your posts contain red flag after red flag. Perhaps it's simply a communication issue, but taken at face value your posts point to issues already present and probably worse to come. If you feel it's not an accurate assessment, I suggest you reread your posts and try to understand why their content would be cause for concern amongst experienced dog owners of any kind. No amount of time invested (even 15 hours a day- when do you sleep?) nor the degree of love you have for your dog will overcome a basic misunderstanding of canine behavior going unremedied. That's where people go wrong. It's not a lack of love, it's a lack of understanding (to the detriment of the dog.)

[Maralynn]

I've always crated dogs. It makes life so much easier. I can go to work, run errands, etc, etc knowing that my dogs are safe and secure. I come home and we're all happy I'm happy because my dogs are safe and the house isn't tore up, they're happy because they had a good snooze and they didn't ingest something that will make them ill/require surgery. It took my pup all of one day to learn that the crate was an okay place to be. He gets food in there, he gets a chew in there, he gets to nap in there (growing puppies NEED down time for both their physical and mental well-being). I understand people not liking crates but saying all dogs in them are fearful and aggressive shows a strong lack of knowledge about the proper use of a crate.

[CurlyQ]

Yes, I agree with Maralynn.

 

You crate your dogs to keep them safe. It's not much different from leashes. Your dog may not WANT to be on a leash, but it's certainly safer for them to be on one than run in front of an oncoming car.

 

Think about all the dangerous things in your house your dog could eat. A crate takes away opportunities for harm. Plus, by the time you're ready to wean your dog off the crate (if you wish to), your dog will probably love it. My dog slept in the spot where her crate was for days after we got rid of it.

[Root Beer]

Diplomatically, ok I am being fair. You can crate your dogs if you like that's great its all good. I just choose not to . When I look at a dog in a kennel or crate I see a sad face. When I see my dog running around I see a happy Face and angry face and a ton of other emotions. but a sad face not so much. Not to mention dogs in a crate always seem fearful and aggressive.. IF it works for you great I am happy for you. I would rather wake up in the morning seeing me puppy wagging her tail begging me to get up than a in a crate asking when instead of knowing when. Its just how I feel about it sorry if you find it wrong .

And I would rather wake up to find my puppy safe in a crate than to find sometime that while I was sleeping he had eaten something he shouldn't that could require surgery, or even end up killing him.

 

I hope you never have to go through that, nor to live with the guilt of knowing that if you had only done some little thing that was completely within your power to do, your dog would still be alive. It's a rotten thing to live with.

 

Sorry if you find it wrong that some of us prefer to avoid unnecessary tragedies.

[Tommy Coyote]

My dogs all have crates. I use them mainly to keep the dogs safe. The puppy is in his crate whenever I am not home. The older dogs are in if there is a safety issue - thunder storms or fireworks. If they hear thunder or fireworks they just dive into their crates. They see them as safe places.

 

I take care of a lot of dogs that stay in crates and none of them seem to mind. They just run right in and lay down. It is just kind of their space to take it easy away from all the stuff that goes on during the day. I don't like to have to leave dogs in their crates for too long. It's a problem if people are away for several days and the dogs aren't supposed to be out in the house. I wouldn't do that with my own dogs and I try to avoid it if possible with the ones I take care. But it surely is better than having them out free if they chew on things.

[Nathan]

All right, does anyone else get that uncomfortable feeling in the pit of their stomach when this person posts anything... It's like watching a train wreck, just when you think the situation can't get any worse, another train comes off the rails causing even more damage than the first. I want to believe hjtras but I just can't... It's like he/she is from another planet and is totally unaware of our earthly social structure. Yeah, ppl are kind of rude sometimes and I get the sense that they're going to be rude to hjtras without consideration to how that might make him/her feel. Sometimes ppl dismiss certain ppl or come off slightly pedantic, and makes the novice or inexperienced bc/dog owner feel small, so I can sympathize w his agitation... but this cat just keeps adding fuel to the fire... Many ppl have held their tongue and tried to help and hjtras kind of changes the subject and comes up w off-the-wall obscure comments, that are obviously beyond sensible.

[Nathan]

Also, I think hjtras may be a young kid... 13-15 maybe?

[chene]

Honestly I'm ashamed of some of these posts. Some of them have legitimate information in them, but there needs to be something said about reading the situation. Sure, maybe this person is a troll, I can't prove that they're not. But maybe this is genuinely a person who has a border collie in their care and doesn't understand a lot of the things that we take for granted. This person is obviously at least partially willing to listen, as shown by the fact that they calmed down after things were explained nicely and mostly by the fact that they are still here. There is a chance here to change things for the better so that both HJTRAS and their border collie will have the best life possible. What could possible make someone think that abruptness and lack of patience is going to be the best way to help? There is absolutely no reason to put your emotions ahead of your common sense. I do not want to drive this person off. I want to hear them out and understand why they have that point of view. Then we can talk about misconceptions. It's crazy to think that someone's point of view is stupid or purposely abrasive just because they have never known any better. And it's also crazy to think that everyone is just going to give up their point of view and believe everything some people on the internet say just because we've told them that you're experts.
I'm not trying to start another argument here, but if you can find it in your hearts to have some patience and be kind and hear a person out, you're probably going to get a lot farther with them.

[Alchemist]

Apologies for the Off-Topic ---

 

Alchemist, I tried to send you a PM, but I think your mailbox is full? I got a message that you could not receive any messages.

 

Sorry about that! I've been in four states (three trips), no five states, in the last two weeks. Just got home at 2 AM. I've cleared out my mailbox some.

[GentleLake]

Posted today by HJTRAS in response to a post from someone asking for help with what s/he says is "very dog aggressive":

 

"I understand . BC's are something that is hard to prepare for. They are not lassie and have some of the most closet attributes to a wolf. So aggression is short of a kill. Fantastic dog that will lay its life down to save its pack. You have awesome dog. be patient and your rewards will be great.."

 

This is exactly the kind of post, HJTRAS, that clearly shows you don't know much about border collies at all, and worse, is offering some very troublesome advice.

 

I don't know at all what you mean by "closest attributes to a wolf" and I really hope you'll explain that, ideally with references that I can check to see where that might have come from.

 

Ditto the statement "So aggression is short of a kill." I'm not even sure what that means, though I suspect it's a warped reference to the fact that border collies' working style is an adaptation of prey stalking behavior minus the final kill sequence (actually minus the attack part of the sequence as well). But to apply this to a situation of dog aggression is totally inappropriate and just plain wrong. Dog aggression does sometimes result in the attacked dog being killed, and border collies exhibiting extreme dog aggression aren't necessarily immune to it.

 

Lastly -- and by far the most troubling -- telling someone in this situation to be patient could have serious consequences. The situation requires action -- management, training, etc. -- not just patience. Dog aggressive dogs aren't likely to change because someone waits them out to see if it'll get better. Quite the opposite, it's likely to get worse.

 

You asked for specific examples of why people are considering your posts off the wall. Here you have one.

 

My concern at this point is not just that what you say is off the wall, but now becoming potentially dangerous.

[Mark Billadeau]

 

I'm not trying to start another argument here, but if you can find it in your hearts to have some patience and be kind and hear a person out, you're probably going to get a lot farther with them.

Just a little history for you....

 

 

Many of these topics come up time and time again over the years. Those of us who have been here a while started out with lots of patience but after many many times being told we don't know what we're talking about by new owners of Border Collies our patience runs thin. Over the years I have seen the exact same attitude by many new owners even when patience has been given; multiple new owners who come here seeking advice and then get indignant when the advice does not fit their preconceived notions. Many people with decades of experience with Border Collies have left the boards due to how they have been treated. The other thing I have learned over the years is that there are more silent readers than there are people who post; often posts are made for them not for those who do not seem willing to accept advice given.

[B Point]

My deduction..

 

 

[GentleLake]

^^ I'd already reached that conclusion and had decided not to respond any more.

 

But this last was so egregious I couldn't let it go without comment. <sigh>

[chene]

Mark: Yes, I realized as much. It must be exhausting. But I have still never seen a thread on here where it was more beneficial to get irritated than to explain nicely. Hence the remark about emotions, and ideally not letting them dictate your advice.
Even for the silent readers, typically an explanation with more patience is going to be more detailed and "dumbed down", so it is helpful for them as well.

[Mark Billadeau]

The initial responses (other than the troll comment) were sound and polite (I just reviewed them); they were not "awwww how cute" comments that may be given on a general dog forum. The tone changed after additional comments from the OP (implying those providing the advice didn't know what they were talking about).

[chene]

Yes, I'm seeing more or less the same thing. Polite comments, inflammatory response, angry comments, gradually back to polite comments, ignorant-but-polite-response, mix of polite and irritated comments. It's the last one that gets me, most. Granted a lot of users took it well. Some didn't. But I didn't see a single person express any appreciation for the change in HJTRAS's mannerism despite some very harsh comments directly his/her way. It just went on to more things they were doing wrong. And those things should be addressed, for sure. It's just that if you want to get someone on your side, immediately jumping into more criticism is not the way to go about it. I was also disappointed in the few comments that were not so polite, because often the one negative is what someone will hear above all the positive. It's not ideal, but it's typically true.

[erin_ohagan]

So, been a lurker on this thread for a couple of days and I have a small comment to add.

I am a new BC owner, not new to dogs. They ARE very different from other dogs. So, HJTRAS when you post things about your dog that MIGHT be true of another kind of dog, there are often very different explanations for that behavior for border collies. For example, staring is not Prozac for a border collile and is often a sign of a dog who is NOT calm and relaxed. What works for other dogs, often does NOT work for border collies.

 

This forum is full of a wealth of VERY helpful information from people who have years and years of experience with this breed; if you would only swallow your pride and listen in the beginning, we would not have four pages of replies to a topic like this one.

 

So many of the people who reply lead very busy lives and often posts can come across as terse or taciturn. If you step back and are not so quick to react and realize that people just don't have the time to give long-winded, flowery responses and take what they have to say at face value, everyone wins.

 

I have had a lot of great advice from people about my dog. So from one newbie BC owner to this forum: Thank you!

[Eileen Stein]

I was hoping this situation might be self-correcting, but it looks as if it will not be.

 

There are two rules of the Boards that are being violated repeatedly in this thread and in one or two related threads:

 

1. Do not flame.

2. Do not tell other people what they can and cannot post.

 

Violations of these rules -- which have occurred on both sides -- inevitably produce threads that are about personalities, etiquette, competing notions of effective communication techniques, and the like. They become less and less about border collies, the subject that is the purpose of these Boards.

 

Please don't think this post of mine is aimed at the most recent post -- far from it. This thread went off-track to begin with back on the first page, with the trolls sign. Many people posted in good faith trying to improve the situation (and I especially appreciated hearing that the Boards have been helpful to newbies), but posts about what others should say, what others should not say, and whether someone is or is not a troll never do improve the situation. If you believe a particular post or poster is destructive or out of line, please notify me, either through the "Report" function or otherwise, and I will deal with it.

 

Let's get back to border collies.

[highway61]

...The other thing I have learned over the years is that there are more silent readers than there are people who post; often posts are made for them not for those who do not seem willing to accept advice given.

 

Very true, thanks for acknowledging this!

[chene]

Okay, fair enough. Thanks for bringing us back to reality Eileen.

As far as crates, I think it's all about getting your dog to like the crate. They don't have to be crated all the time, and you can still wake up to a happy face and a wagging tail, because they'll have been in a warm, cozy place when they felt safe. I think it's harder for us as humans to understand how locking a dog up could be okay in their mind. There's such a stigma against being behind bars, a lack of freedom, etc. But dogs don't see things the way we do. They don't have that stigma. We're not a species that has ever used dens (as far as I know) and we really don't have the same instincts and need for safety that they do. Once they realize that the crate is a great place, it becomes their personal haven, and who wouldn't want one of those?

[erin_ohagan]

Apologies for contributing to the problem.

 

2. Do not tell other people what they can and cannot post.

Violations of these rules -- which have occurred on both sides -- inevitably produce threads that are about personalities, etiquette, competing notions of effective communication techniques, and the like. They become less and less about border collies, the subject that is the purpose of these Boards.