The eye

[teresaserrano]

This is a completely academic question prompted only by my ignorance - and I did some research but didn't find an answer. I'm just curious.

 

Question: is the border collie "eye" (that, as I understand it, is a hard and foccused stare acompanied by a half-crouched body stance) something that a dog develops during a specific age frame?

 

Framework: Tess did "the eye" a couple of times when she was 12 or 13 weeks old. Then nothing, then, at 5 mo, she "suddenly" went blind. It wasn't that sudden for she was diagnosed with congenital chataracts, so she was going blind since birth. I just didn't notice it till then.

 

She has surgery, regains sight, although of course there is a period of adjustement after the surgery. Still no "eye". Surgery was 5,5 months ago, and recently she has been crouching and staring now and then when we're playing. Not much, but I have noticed a bit of it.

 

I couldn't care less if she has the eye or not because we really have no chance of ever doing some real herding. It's just curiosity. Is it that she was blind or not seeing well enough anyway at the age when "the eye" should develop, or does age have nothing to do with it?

 

[Jescano]

Some dogs use a lot of eye, some don't, as I understand.

[GentleLake]

I don't know what the average age for eye to develop, or even if there is an average age, if it's going to develop.

 

Although it's a hallmark of the breed, not all border collies use a lot of eye.

[Gloria Atwater]

The "eye" in border collies is regarded as a trademark of the breed, but in reality, it's a very individual thing.

Some dogs will show "eye" in play-stalking behaviors when very young - my girl did it the day I picked her up at 8 weeks old, when she met her big brother for the first time! Some won't show "eye" until they are months older or when they begin lessons on sheep. And other border collies won't show much at all, ever. My old guy, Jesse, was pretty loose-eyed and upright, and never fully showed that border collie crouch.

To answer more directly, I don't think there is any particular age at which the "eye" will manifest. "Eye" is mainly an indicator of intense focus in border collies, but not all border collies show focus in that way, and those who do may develop it at different points during their growing up.

It varies tremendously between individual dogs and families of dogs. Hope this helps! Very glad to hear your girl has regained her sight!


~ Gloria

This is a completely academic question prompted only by my ignorance - and I did some research but didn't find an answer. I'm just curious.

 

Question: is the border collie "eye" (that, as I understand it, is a hard and foccused stare acompanied by a half-crouched body stance) something that a dog develops during a specific age frame?

 

Framework: Tess did "the eye" a couple of times when she was 12 or 13 weeks old. Then nothing, then, at 5 mo, she "suddenly" went blind. It wasn't that sudden for she was diagnosed with congenital chataracts, so she was going blind since birth. I just didn't notice it till then.

 

She has surgery, regains sight, although of course there is a period of adjustement after the surgery. Still no "eye". Surgery was 5,5 months ago, and recently she has been crouching and staring now and then when we're playing. Not much, but I have noticed a bit of it.

 

I couldn't care less if she has the eye or not because we really have no chance of ever doing some real herding. It's just curiosity. Is it that she was blind or not seeing well enough anyway at the age when "the eye" should develop, or does age have nothing to do with it?

[B Point]

Interesting timing of this thread .... I was wondering the same thing. Yesterday, Tio had a good minute or so of "eye". He was laser beam focused on a neighborhood cat that was about 20 ft away and he had it all going on.,, the crouch, the stare, the creep...ready to pounce. Ironically, very cat like. Even with his hind end not working so well it looked pretty impressive. He usually just kinda looks at them, looks at me..back at them,, but this was the first time (13 months) I saw the concentration.

 

After the cat bolted I said,, hey ya goofball, where did that come from?? He replied, .. Puberty..!! Or at least that what I think I heard..

Do they sometimes "grow into it"??

[Mom of Mya]

Mya has had the eye since we brought her home at 9 weeks. She will intently stare at something and never blink or give up. Our other dogs if you stared at them they would eventually turn their heads away but not Mya, she will stare as long as you do and longer. She never loses focus on something she is intently giving the "eye". She does not do the crouch thing most of the time but always does the eye and the moving in slow motion creep thing. My husband says he wishes she would not bore a hole into his back LOL!! That is how she lets us know she needs to go out by the "eye". It is like she is willing us to know what she needs. She is 9 months old right now. She will never get to work sheep either but it would be interesting to see what she would do with them.

[bcnewe2]

I think it is genetic but can also be nurtured or developed or even pushed out or not developed. I've seen dogs with "to much eye" that when trained aren't taught to lie down and actually discouraged from lying down. With the idea to not encourage stickiness. Some are born with more than others. And I have seen some dogs with eye and not the typical crouch. Interesting about the dog that went blind.

Seems logical that if the dog was born with it but went blind and didn't get to develop or practice the "eye" that it would come back if the sight was restored. BTW, awesome that your dog was able to be given back it's sight, even on a limited basis sounds wonderful!

 

My preference for a working dog is to have some but not so much that the dog becomes sticky. IOW's I want it just right! LOL

[bcnewe2]

She never loses focus on something she is intently giving the "eye".

Ya know you can train your dog to come off what ever it is giving eye to. You just have to be a bit more (that is different for all dogs) than what it is eyeing.

example:

my young dog eyes chickens, if you can't find her she's in the barn starring at chickens or at the spot where she last saw chickens. I don't like the behavior in that manor but it is what it is and as long as I can call her off I figure she's ok. It took some work to get her to "hear" me when she is "stuck". I had to be bigger or louder than her eye had her stuck. What works for us is a recall whistle with her name added in. I don't like it when you can't call a dog off what ever it's stuck on. It would not be good at all on livestock. And it can really piss of another dog when it's over the top. So best to work though it if possible. If not I'd have a short or long line attached so I could gently tug the dog to get it's attention off what it's starring at and redirect it.

[Mom of Mya]

Ya know you can train your dog to come off what ever it is giving eye to. You just have to be a bit more (that is different for all dogs) than what it is eyeing.

example:

my young dog eyes chickens, if you can't find her she's in the barn starring at chickens or at the spot where she last saw chickens. I don't like the behavior in that manor but it is what it is and as long as I can call her off I figure she's ok. It took some work to get her to "hear" me when she is "stuck". I had to be bigger or louder than her eye had her stuck. What works for us is a recall whistle with her name added in. I don't like it when you can't call a dog off what ever it's stuck on. It would not be good at all on livestock. And it can really piss of another dog when it's over the top. So best to work though it if possible. If not I'd have a short or long line attached so I could gently tug the dog to get it's attention off what it's starring at and redirect it.

Thanks and yes I have been working with her. If she is outside she will usually turn her attention if I use the whistle or clicker but my concern with it being so intent is with other dogs. When we took the obedience classes she would eye the other dogs and especially the German Shepherd would get really intense, barking, and trying to get at her when she did it. Kind of scared me, so i would have to turn her attention to me when she would start doing that to break her eyeing the other dogs. So far we keep her on a long leash since her recall is not 100 percent all the time off leash. She just recently has started chasing chipmunks in the back yard (it is fenced, so i can leave her off leash there and work on the training things), and I am working on trying to keep her from getting so focused on that now too. She will sit and stare at a hole they run down in, not moving, just starting. So when I see her doing that now, I try to call her, throw her ball or something to get her attention off of it. I have heard they can get so focused they will not think of anything else and I don't want her that focused on something.

[bcnewe2]

I allow my dogs to eye each other when they play games. They know each other and they all know the rules of their games (most are made by them) but I don't ever allow them eyeballing other dogs. It's rude and other dogs like the GSD can get geeked out by it. Things can go south quickly. Work on it at a distance before you have to do it up close. Catch her before she engages in that behavior, it'll be easier. She doesn't know it's wrong, she is compelled to do it by breed.

 

When I correct a dog for doing that, or train my dogs to come off what they're eyeing I tug on the leash if they don't "hear" me calling them. And, they truly don't hear you calling. They are one tracked onto what they are doing, hence saying you have to be louder or bigger than what they are looking at.

But after I get their attention I want them to come to me, not me dragging them away. They learn self control that way. If your dog responds to a squeaky toy, you can try that too. But once you get her attention I'd be trying to get her to do something different not "making" her. Same as recall. Best if it's their choice to come, not make them if you can help it. But, I certainly will "make" them come if they don't choose the right thing.

 

It can become OCD like behavior, I think that's what you mean by not thinking about anything else. Really when they are eyeing something they aren't thinking about anything else. If you keep working at it you will help her gain control of it herself.

[teresaserrano]

Thanks for your answers. I was thinking that maybe the eye developed during a specific development phase, and as Tess was nearly/completely blind for a part of her growing period, she could have missed it. But as I understand from your answers, age has nothing to do with it.

[CurlyQ]

I got my puppy just a couple days ago. She's about 8 weeks old now, and she often does the eye. I was reading this thread before I got her, so I was not expecting to see it for a few more months. She doesn't crouch very well, especially since we have hardwoods. If she went any lower she'd probably slip onto her belly . It's not too hard to get her to come off the eye, especially if I move in a distracting manner. She's got a very short attention span (a blessing or a curse?).

 

Whelp, I definitely got a border collie!

[bcnewe2]

I think nothing is more darling than to see a wee pup creeping up on something! But I find creeping and that working style to be beautiful. Some of my non dog friends get freaked out by it.

Congrats on your pup CurlyQ

[Crawford Dogs]

I don't know if this helps but my Border Collie Rose is mostly blind (retinal degeneration, believed to be autoimmune by opthamologist, can see only on brightly lit days, cannot see things within 10 ft of her at all). She went blind between 5-6 1/2 yrs of age and is now 7 yrs. She spends most of her days stalking and using eye on Loki (my other border collie). Although she cannot see she can hear Loki and still stalks him. She also will lie outside the stockpens and eye the stock (as much as she can see). I don't think her eye or stalking behaviors depend on her vision at all. But, that's just her.

 

Bethany

[Debbie Meier]

this is a neat video to watch, even with no eyes and can't see you see some interesting traits come through, if she had eyes there are some parts that some would say she is "eyeing the ball", but clearly isn't. http://wtvr.com/2012/11/08/watch-dog-with-no-eyes-has-uncanny-fetching-skills/#ooid=Z5aGFyNjorHiYdSDGHSV_w3gkABDSFNO

[CMP]

One of the traits I most love about Molly is her "eye". She's 16 weeks now and has been practising at it since she could move around. She creeps and stalks everything, never comes at toys or people straight and had to be taught not to circle behind me on a recall.

 

She can do it for extended periods of time - such as when she is waiting for her best friend to come home around 5ish every day, she herds their shared toys into a pile (pushes them there instead of carrying them) around 4:30 and proceeds to patrol the perimeter of "home", rarely taking her eyes off the place he will eventually arrive. When he comes (he comes from the farm, on his own) she herds him (and bless him, he lets her) like she was herding a 1000 head down South Mountain. While she's waiting she treats butterflies, cloud shadows, cats, birds, bugs and beetles to a little side stalking - but only briefly, the path down which Moss comes must be watched!

 

She is not permitted to do it to any other dog except Moss and as part of play with other puppies in the yard and she is NOT permitted to do it to people under any circumstance.

 

Her natural instinct, to any curiosity, is to inspect it in a crouch, snout lowered, eyes boring into the object of interest, one careful foot after the other and plenty of lie downs to really look it over. Watching her one day do it to a bunch of tall delphiniums, I realized she was moving when the wind rustled them, dropping when they were still.

 

As someone said - it's hard coded into them and most will exhibit some form, mild or strong, of it at some point, however briefly or faintly. I don't worry about it one little bit as long as I can still get her attention - which has not been a problem so far - even when the thing being stalked was a bunny rabbit.

 

All of our working dogs exhibit a "strong eye" - it is one of the things which has been deliberately encouraged via breeding but many handlers do not like a strong eye at all.

[teresaserrano]

Tess showed eye when very young, but then she didn't anymore, and my original question related to her being in the process of becoming blind till birth, and so as she didn't see well maybe she couldn't develop the eye. Then she had surgery and regained eyesight, but I though maybe it could be that by then she was too old, if "eye" was something dogs developed, or not, during a certain time frame.

 

As far as I've understood your answers, having eye is not that related with having good eyesight, so probably she just doesn't have a strong eye period. Not that I care as we don't herd and she has a beautiful temperament. And anyway, if I have understood correctly, the eye is not that tied with a good working ability.

[Pam Wolf]

As I understand "eye" is part of the dog's canine behavior, indicating extreme concentration, ancestrally for concentrating on prey for killing it. As others have said, there are varying degrees of eye. Additionally some dogs use eye in certain situations and can 'change' the intensity of the "eye" depending on the situation. Example: I've seen dogs that move stock fairly high headed, not really staring at the stock then the stock decide to become difficult and the look in the dog's eye becomes "harder" (for lack of better description, but don't like this sort of eye directed at me)

 

Style-the creeping posture of a Border Collie when stalking stock, seems to be as much (or more so) a function of the dog's physical structure as much as anything. IOW, if the dog isn't built with good functional structure, no matter how much eye the dog shows, it just can't get into the 'stalking style'. Additionally I've seen Border Collies that were extremely stylish but did not use "eye" when working (and these dogs were very weak and ineffective on sheep)