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Terrible Aggression - at my wit's end, please help!


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You are donig the right thing by trying. some would give up. Continue to be patient. You wouldn't expect a human with severe behavioral issues to get better overnight. Even if the method to "fix" the problems is simple - as i've stated - it still will take time and repitition. Keep it up, it'll pay off in the end.

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Even if the method to "fix" the problems is simple - as i've stated - it still will take time and repitition. Keep it up, it'll pay off in the end.

 

Or the dog may be truly miswired and euthanasia the most humane option available.

 

Please do not try to give people result guarantees based on a "I saw it on TV". It's unfair to both them and the dog.

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I don't have much to add except to say when I've been faced with these type issues, it's been more a management situation than ever really fixing the true problems.

I sure hope you find some answers before you come to the end of your rope, even humanily PTS is somthing that haunts us for a long time if not forever. You sure won't get judgement from those of us on here who have walked in your shoes. Only care and sympathy.

 

Hoping to here some good news from you about finding help.

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You are donig the right thing by trying. some would give up. Continue to be patient. You wouldn't expect a human with severe behavioral issues to get better overnight. Even if the method to "fix" the problems is simple - as i've stated - it still will take time and repitition. Keep it up, it'll pay off in the end.

 

Sorry, but you haven't seen the dog in these situations. She is no longer guarding ANYTHING from us. I cured her of the resource guarding and protectiveness of areas in the home through training (the kennel we got rid of weeks ago, so she wouldn't think anything in the house was her own--it really seemed to help, too, now she doesn't guard anything from us at all). I can tell her to get out of any area in the home and take it myself and she is fine. She asks before she comes into our room, she doesn't jump on the couch, she does whatever we say! She even drops things (food and toys, even her KONG which once sent her through the roof over resource guarding) and brings them to me if I ask, and obeys any commands I ask her to.

 

The aggression that remains now seems to be fear-based not dominance-based. Her tail goes between her legs, she goes rigid, she is not confident when she is aggressive toward us. The solution is not as simple as you say at all. Treating this like dominance aggression, which we tried in the beginning, only made it escalate because she was way over threshold and confronting her amped up the fear that seems to be driving the aggression in the first place. (Note: this is a dog who was SUPER SHY AND SUBMISSIVE all through her puppyhood. During basic training, she hid from the other dogs under my chair and KEPT her tail between her legs and her ears down. She is only as confident as she is now around people and other dogs because we did a lot of desensitivization.)

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Jblaylock

I have an idea...

If your sure it's so easy, why don't you take this dog in and fix her yourself. You can either do it for the OP and give her back when you've got the issues worked out, or maybe she'll let you keep her after you finish rehabing the dog.

Of course only afer signing a release of responsibility to the OP.

I don't know where you're located but I'm sure some of the people on the boards would help work out transport to get her to you.

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Please do not try to give people result guarantees based on a "I saw it on TV". It's unfair to both them and the dog.

 

 

I'm not basing anything off of "I saw it on TV," so, please don't make stupid ass assumptions. I have helped rehabilitate many dogs; what the hell am I doing even mentioning that to you in some forum, I haven't a clue.

 

 

Anyways, Pansmom, there are still things you can do to help a dog overcome fear issues. I hope you don't associate some exclusively human psycological issues with this poor dog and give up on it - as i am starting to see some here would do - and have it destroyed. If you can't fix the problem, and you've tried everything, and the only choice you see left is euthanasia, then I sinserely hope you find someone else who will take the poor dog and try something else. I'm not saying there's something wrong with you or you didn't do everything you can - but sometimes one persons very best effor tjust isn't as effective as another persons very best effort, that's just life.

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Jblaylock

I have an idea...

If your sure it's so easy, why don't you take this dog in and fix her yourself. You can either do it for the OP and give her back when you've got the issues worked out, or maybe she'll let you keep her after you finish rehabing the dog.

Of course only afer signing a release of responsibility to the OP.

I don't know where you're located but I'm sure some of the people on the boards would help work out transport to get her to you.

 

I'm sure they would help get her to me. Are they going to also pay for the food and vet bills? If so, bring her, I'd love to help, and I know I would. Me, my two dogs, and my wolfdog would do our best to teach her how to be a happy dog, instead of a humanized psych patient. If it were up to me alone, I'd take her and pay for all of the vet bills and food, and keep her as a new bonded member of our family. However, my wife wouldn't be so fond of a fourth dog.

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I am so glad that you posted about fear aggression, because I didn't see it mentioned before (although Julie may have alluded to it) and that seems to me to be exactly what you are describing w/ your girl. From my experience w/ a very fear aggressive Dobe, I found it is VERY difficult to manage this type of aggression (esp. in a dog w/ 2 inch canines), and that treating it like dominance aggression (if there really is such a thing) is asking for trouble.

 

I totally agree w/ the other posters. Have her blood checked to rule out thyroid or other medical issues and treat if needed. If there is no medical basis for the aggression and manangement of the problem for the duration of her life is the only option but not possible for your family, I believe you would be justified in having her PTS. A horrible thing to have to do, but some dogs really do have mental problems that cannot be fixed. I usually see that in the eyes first, sort of a vacant, hollow, glazed-over look. In my case, after doing bloodwork and consulting w/ a behaviorist, we did eventually decide to put our rescued Dobe down when we could no longer handle her without a muzzle and she was a risk to everyone and anyone. We could tell that she was under extreme stress and not living a happy life at all, so when we made the decision to PTS, we firmly believed we were releasing her from a life full of fear and anxiety, and that was the best gift we could give her.

 

You are approaching your problem w/ an open mind which is to be commended. You will do the right thing for your girl whatever that turns out to be. So sorry you're having to go through this...I know how awful you must feel.

 

Kim

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OK UPDATE -

 

I have talked it over with my husband, and we are going to try to get someone to do bloodwork at a reduced rate, to see if there is any obvious problem that is fixable. But it will take a while because I am going to stay with friends for a week so she is going to stay home with my husband. But we have decided, since we want to have kids (we were actually going to start trying in January, right when all this started, seemingly out of nowhere), that no matter what, we can't keep her in our home forever, so the veterinary behaviorist is out of the question for us (especially since they wouldn't be able to cure her 100% guaranteed and they are so expensive and far from our home). In the meantime, we will try to get this bloodwork done and continue to work with her, nurturing the many positive aspects of her personality. At heart, she really is a sweet dog (she is lying at my feet right now with her nylabone chewtoy, the only thing in the house she chews).

 

If anyone knows a rescue organization or a foster home with border collie experience that would like to see if they could rehabilitate her, after we have the bloodwork done, we would be eternally grateful. We would happily drive her anywhere in the country, if it meant she might be able to get help from people with more skills and experience than we have. We love her very much, but we worry that we aren't qualified enough dog parents to be able to read her body language quickly enough to understand and thus help shape her behavior. Also, we understand she might not be rehabilitatable, but we don't feel qualified to make that call either, this being my first dog ever and only my husband's second. In other words, we don't think we can give her the care she very much needs. If anyone out there with more experience than us thinks they can give her that care, one thing we would be willing to do, if you think you could help, but you already have too many dogs or only keep one dog at a time, is to take another dog you are fostering, who is more suited for a house with cats and children. I promise you, we are a very loving home and are willing to spend lots of time training a dog and taking them running and playing. I am a college instructor who has the summers completely off, and my husband has gone back to graduate school, so we are home a lot. And we both love dogs.

 

Here are some pictures of Pan. Her mother was a purebred border collie, and her father they're not sure about but they thought he was part border collie at least. As far as her personality, her mannerisms, the intelligence, she's alllllllllllllllllllllll border collie. She does the eye, the silent stalk, she herds our cats (it's great, if one escapes into the backyard, I just call her and she comes running and I say "Get her!" and she herds the cat back in). She actually got BORED at basic training because she picked up every single command just by watching the trainer's dog do it once! If she didn't have this aggressive streak, or if we had more land and like sheep or something to keep her occupied outside, I would definitely keep her because she is SO smart and usually good natured. But our yard is only about the size of our house, so it wouldn't really help curb the wandering instinct. I wish we had ACRES! I will post this in the rescue and rehabilitation and adoption thread also with a link to this one. I know I am asking something difficult, but I would definitely be willing to take another dog in return, and I promise you, we are a very loving home. I really, really, really, love animals.

 

 

At seven months, with me, graduating from basic obedience class

 

post-9869-1239387918_thumb.jpg

Pan now - isn't she gorgeous?

 

post-9869-1239387948_thumb.jpg

Pan now - smiling.

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However, my wife wouldn't be so fond of a fourth dog.

 

Now isn't that convenient! "I'd like to help! but...."

 

The big BUTT, it says so much :rolleyes:

 

Put your money where your mouth is JBlaylock. You say the cure is simple and easy. Prove it. And no blaming the cop out on your wife. Own up, take the dog, and show us how it's done.

 

I bet you could even get some TV time on that if you write Cesar about what's going on.

 

My sympathies to the original posting regarding the offshoot threads. I hope you find a peaceful decision for you family.

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Now isn't that convenient! "I'd like to help! but...."

 

The big BUTT, it says so much :rolleyes:

 

Put your money where your mouth is JBlaylock. You say the cure is simple and easy. Prove it. And no blaming the cop out on your wife. Own up, take the dog, and show us how it's done.

 

I bet you could even get some TV time on that if you write Cesar about what's going on.

 

My sympathies to the original posting regarding the offshoot threads. I hope you find a peaceful decision for you family.

 

Put my money where my mouth is? I didn't suggest I'd take it, as much as I'd like to, you did. Not everyone has room for a bunch of dogs. My wife loves them, but isn't as devoted as I, and I'm not about to piss her off out of some childish dare from a clearly adolescent minded forumaniac I've never met and couldn't care less about the opinions of. What I suggested was that the person who already took the dog continues to have patience and not rule out methods just because of some idiotic posts here about how dog's can't be simple. The woman admited this is her first dog and her husbands second dog, she responded to my posts in ways that made it obvious she missed my points, so clearly not all that could be done has been done.

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Further, this isn't a contest or a matter of pride. "Own up" - ? "Show us how it's done" - ? ... these are childish dares, challenges that are related to human pride and not the welfare of a dog. Where do your concerns and interest honestly lie? Are you just some forum person who likes to log in and argue, deal in controversy and confrontation?

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I'm sure they would help get her to me. Are they going to also pay for the food and vet bills? If so, bring her, I'd love to help, and I know I would. Me, my two dogs, and my wolfdog would do our best to teach her how to be a happy dog, instead of a humanized psych patient. If it were up to me alone, I'd take her and pay for all of the vet bills and food, and keep her as a new bonded member of our family. However, my wife wouldn't be so fond of a fourth dog.

 

OK, I read this only after I just posted what I did, believe it or not. Read my last reply?

 

I need help. If you're remotely serious, you might talk to your wife, and I can check with my husband and see how much we can afford. What do you think yearly vet bills and food would cost? Or do you think if you "fixed" her she would retain that behavior when moved and be safe around kids? I have no idea how that works for dogs. (See previous explanation: Pan is my first dog, and only my husband's second. I am trying my best. I really am.)

 

Sorry, everyone, for being so desperate.... We will get that bloodwork done soon.

 

And now, Pan and I are going to go bicycling.

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The aggression that remains now seems to be fear-based not dominance-based.

 

What you describe does sound like it's fear based. You won't know for sure, of course, unless you go through the testing and evaluation that has been recommended. If it is, there is lots of info out there on how to work with this. But I guess you probably understand by now that it will have to be managed throughout the pups life. Desentitizing for every new situation, lots of structure and routine, perhaps medication, etc. You have to also keep tabs on your emotions, because Pan will pick up on them. If you're fearful, anxious, angry ( I wouldn't blame you since you've been bitten) then that may escalate her reaction. Not always easy to do in everyday life.

 

It sounds like you've done some good things already to try to manage the situation. I noticed that you say you spray water at her when she's acting up. I personally wouldn't do this to a fearful dog. Even if it stops it momentarily, it might contribute to a more fearful dog in the long run. Like another thing to be afraid of in a long line of things that you're trying to whittle down. I would leave the room when she starts her growling behavior or calmly remove her to another room or crate with an uh..oh..too bad. Since she's "wicked smart" :rolleyes: she should figure it out, assuming she doesn't have another underlying problem cause her to act this way.

 

I wish you the best.

 

Georgia

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Put my money where my mouth is? I didn't suggest I'd take it, as much as I'd like to, you did. Not everyone has room for a bunch of dogs. My wife loves them, but isn't as devoted as I, and I'm not about to piss her off out of some childish dare from a clearly adolescent minded forumaniac I've never met and couldn't care less about the opinions of. What I suggested was that the person who already took the dog continues to have patience and not rule out methods just because of some idiotic posts here about how dog's can't be simple. The woman admited this is her first dog and her husbands second dog, she responded to my posts in ways that made it obvious she missed my points, so clearly not all that could be done has been done.

 

I understood what you meant about the crate, incidentally. Before we put it up, we DID claim it. And she stopped growling at us over it. And she doesn't try to "own" anything in the house now. But we put the crate up because part of the program our behaviorist recommended was showing her that NOTHING in this house was hers, it was all ours to let her use anytime. Giving her things to call her own hade made her obsessive over them, so she suggested we put them up.

 

OK, so now, really, BICYCLING!

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With my Aussie the aggression was seizure based. Again, I encourage you to carefully videotape interactions with yoru dog to show the behaviorist you worked with before. Use the zoom feature to closely show her face and body language, and then zoom out to the room and situation at hand.

 

One of the worst "out of the blue" aggression cases the behaviorist I know worked with was a GSD police dog. He was attacking people in the car, seeming to 'go mad" at the divider between him and his officer. They had tried dominating him over his behavior, holding him down and forcing him to calm down and he would go crazy until he just collapsed in a heap.

 

It took driving next to his car with another police cruiser and a video camara to figure out the dog was actually have seizures when the reflected signs on the road (those arrow symbols as you approach a narrow bridge or roadway) started passing fast enough to create a strobe like effect. The "collapsing in a heap" was actually his postictal phase of his seizures.

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JBlaylock,

 

Personal insults are not permitted on this board. Please confine yourself to discussing the topic of the thread. I have excerpted below some examples that I believe the moderator of this forum would class as unacceptable statements or phrases (and I apologize to all if I have erred in these identifications).

 

...stupid ass assumptions

 

...clearly adolescent minded forumaniac

 

 

Are you just some forum person who likes to log in and argue, deal in controversy and confrontation?
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If anyone knows a rescue organization or a foster home with border collie experience that would like to see if they could rehabilitate her, after we have the bloodwork done, we would be eternally grateful. We would happily drive her anywhere in the country, if it meant she might be able to get help from people with more skills and experience than we have. We love her very much, but we worry that we aren't qualified enough dog parents to be able to read her body language quickly enough to understand and thus help shape her behavior. Also, we understand she might not be rehabilitatable, but we don't feel qualified to make that call either, this being my first dog ever and only my husband's second. In other words, we don't think we can give her the care she very much needs. If anyone out there with more experience than us thinks they can give her that care, one thing we would be willing to do, if you think you could help, but you already have too many dogs or only keep one dog at a time, is to take another dog you are fostering, who is more suited for a house with cats and children. I promise you, we are a very loving home and are willing to spend lots of time training a dog and taking them running and playing. I am a college instructor who has the summers completely off, and my husband has gone back to graduate school, so we are home a lot. And we both love dogs.

 

Unfortunately, I think you are going to be hard pressed to find a rescue that will take in a dog who's bitten.

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My dog has fear aggression and her attacking us and the other 2 dogs started in Jan and continued to get worse. I couldn't take the fighting and the constant uneasiness in the house any longer so we had all the blood work done, results came back normal.

At present she is on Prozac and although it has only been 4 weeks there has been a change. She still attacks the other dogs and can go off in a heartbeat at whoever is the closest but it doesn't happen as often. She still has a long way to go but now that the Prozac levels are increasing in her system I can at least get her attention most times. Before I would have had a better chance of having a brick wall respond to me.

 

For now the Prozac seems to be helping Kya but only time will tell for sure. My heart breaks for you and Pan. You have to do what is best for all who are involved. Good luck.

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I agree that it will be very difficult to rehome this dog.

 

In the midwest (and in other areas of the country) where WAY too many good, stable BCs are put down in shelters every day, it is very hard for a rescue to justify taking in a known aggression case w/ a bite history when that dog could be taking the place of a placeable dog that could be saved. I know the BC rescues I work with will not take a dog like this because it cannot be rehomed due to the liability. As has been said, dogs like this can be worked with and managed, but IMHO fear aggression is not something that you can ever cure (unless of course there is an underlying, treatable medical problem). Finding a private home w/ someone up to the challenge (w/ no kids) might be the only alternative to PTS if the bloodwork checks out.

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I agree with Ms. Daisy Duke that it will be hard to find a rescue to take Pan. It's like triage do you take the 1 or more you can save or the 1 you can maybe save. I know that isn't what you want to hear. I'm sorry. As far as rehabbing her there are no guarantees. It's hard. I went through this with Alex to a lesser extent. Alex is now at a point where I would trust her in a house with kids, but it was questionable at first. Follow the advice given here, tests, video taping episodes, talking to trainer/ behaviorist, and go from there.

 

Esox & Alex

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Trying to find something positive with in all thsi negitive.... hard to do.

Raven was very much like you described. She was not possessive. but her fear lead her to places that you could not reach her once she was there. My kids were older so they were not at risk, it took years for me to learn her tirggers, but the are/were there. Tiny little things that the normal person would totally miss, I missed them for along time. In truth probably the only reason we kept her is becasue she was doing good on sheep and we could see that work changing her whole behavior. She wasn't a threat to my family it that time. I worked from home, kids were older, She was as much my full time job as my real job. I had the time and energy to keep working with her. That was the perfect situation for her and me to learn to manage her behaviors. Skip ahead 9+ years and you can hardly see her fear anymore.

So in some lucky cases it can be done, unfortunatly not always.

Funny thing is, now that she is older she has thyroid issues. they could have been part of her earlier problems but I didn't have these boards and wasnt' knowledgable enough to know it might be part of those issues. I know it sounds strange, but I'm praying that thyroid might be part of the problem and meds, might help. Thyroid meds aren't expensive once you get the right dosage and through all the testing.

They also didn't put dogs on prozac or other meds, or at least I didn't know about them back then. They might be the key to help get her rehabbed at home. I'm wondering if when you find a vet to do the bloodwork, they would be willing to try Pan on a prozzc or a prozac type drug. You'd know in a few weeks if they were helping, or even buying you the time and saftey that you need to work the issues out.

 

I feel for you, I understand the spot you are in. Doing your best, and not getting where you need to be can be so depressing, especially when your own dogs life hangs in the balance. I wish I could offer to take on Pan. My life has changed and I have 4 dogs with one on the way, what Pan sounds like she will take is beyond my capibilities anymore. I'm sure you're on the right track with what you're doing. no matter what the outcome, know you are doing your best, and know we or at least I am behind your decisions.

Good luck with the blood tests and I will keep my ears open for someone wiilling to take on a challanging dog. I know they are hard to find but they are out there. Look at some of the ones that have made it on here.

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