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Bonnie and Sheep


Maja

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Here are some photos of my Cameroonians with Kelly and with her grandfather - a Polish herding champion :D:

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The sheep look a little scruffy because they are shedding.

 

Here are photos on one of two breeds of my instructor's they are called wrzosowka - it's a Polish indigenous breed. We used to have four of them (Santa, Pinta, Ninia and Columbus :D , since we got them on the the fourth of July) for the very purpose kelpiegirl mentioned :D , and they helped dogbreak our sheep.

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The other breed he used to have is bigger and heavier and they never made contact with a human body, always respected my personal space :rolleyes: .

 

Maja

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Maja,

Your Cameroonian sheep look very much like Barbados blackbellies (I wonder of the two breeds aren't closely related?). At one time here in the US, if you wanted hair sheep, barbs were pretty much your only choice. Since then, other breeds have become available. Barbs have a well-deserved reputation of being light and difficult to work (often described as very deerlike).

 

J.

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That's right I remember the name of the American breed now, and they are related as far as I know. The Cameroonians are exactly like you have described.

 

At the beginning of August we are going to a herding camp (almost a week) with sheep like the woollies above. I am looking forward to it.

 

 

In the meantime we had a good session with Bonnie. Lots of walking nice, a bit closer than I would have wished, but no pushing and a steady pace. she is also showing glimmers of intensity. Nothing like her mother yet, but less of the puppy looseness.

 

Maja

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The dreaded Barbados.....I've seen them take fences down with ease but really I've seen them jump fences just like a deer usually.

Not my favorite even for trained dogs. Just don't like those sheep.

What do you raise them for Maja? Do you sell lamb? Maybe you could borrow a different breed of ram and mix them with something heavier?

 

I have the flightest Cheviots I've ever known. Bad fencing makes for not much training. Dew is 4 and we've been either sheepless or had these darn Cheviots for the last 2 years. Her training is all but at a standstill. She has learned a good deal about sheep bubbles and correct pressure and why it's so important. We've been able to work on a few things, outwork is not one of them.

These darn sheep, if they're not running for the mountains they are challanging Dew and will squish her if they get a chance.

 

I can say for a well started dog, they have been a wonderful tool to teach Mick about distance and the need to stay off.

He's older, stiff, and out of shap. He learned quickly if the wrong pressure is applied he doesn't have the energy or ability to catch them without totally wearing himself out. Much easier to learn compared to me trying to train it.

It's one of the things I've really enjoyed about moving around and having real, different work and working situations for Mick to do.

Nothing teaches a dog more than real life situations.

I'm not going to go back and re read this thread but I think I remember the suggestion of having Bonnie help you with some chores if possible. I do think it shows the youngesters that there is a reason for all the training and would be good/helpful for her.

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Buying dog broke sheep isn´t always as easy as Kelpiegirl suggests.

Take my situation; First off there is just one breed available here; the Icelandic one (well obviously...).

Secondly there are severe restrictions on where I can buy stock in Iceland.

The country has been divided down in parts, after what kinds of diseases occur (they are in effect isolated from each other). You can only buy stock from "clean" areas (free of scrapies and a number of other infectious diseases). This goes so far that officially I am not even allowed to buy from a neighbouring farm (completely absurd as these sheep are in contact the whole summer...).

So yeah, I´d love to buy some nice dog broke ewes, but they simply aren´t available, and then you work with what you got.

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I think sometimes we forget that the sheepdog culture elsewhere isn't the same as it is here. There are a lot of hobby herders here, and finding dog-broke sheep isn't terribly difficult. Good puppy sheep are harder to find, and in the past when I've been done with mine I've sold them on to someone else who needed them, but I have since learned the folly of that behavior, because another youngster always seems to come along. So the puppy sheep I have now will stay here and live the good life until needed for the next pup that (inevitably) comes along. The problem is that puppy sheep also have limited utility. They're wonderful for starting a pup, but that same slowness/heaviness can kill you when you're trying to, for example, teach a youngster to drive.

 

Today, the puppy sheep were being used in a smaller paddock for Ranger's sister, so I tried working Ranger on just the karakul sheep that I use for lessons. They are dog broke and work quite well for trained dogs, but really are not puppy sheep--too flighty (for example, I had one break off at the start, and she literally climbed over the gate to get to the rest of the flock, she was that determined to get away, and this was after Ranger and I had taken the other sheep--I left her because I knew she was just going to be trouble--and were wearing them across the pasture, so that particular ewe wasn't even being bothered by a dog, and yet still she went over the gate; that's the first time I've seen a sheep do that here). When combined with the puppy sheep (all hair sheep) they work fine, though they lighten the whole group. I was working Ranger out in the pasture. I can tell you that if I hadn't had my friend Laura here with her trained dog to catch the runaways and put them back together for Ranger, training today probably would have been ugly.

 

When Maja mentions her sheep walking with their heads just past her, that's what my karakuls do when I work them (alone or with the puppy sheep) with the pup. Unfortunately, although Ranger will walk behind the sheep, he still tends to be a bit closer than they'd like and so they kind of plow into me and even if we're all just walking, their heads are past me and they're stepping on my feet (which is pretty annoying). But as he's actually walking at a decent pace behind them I won't correct him (he's really *trying* to be right and do the right thing), so instead try to keep the sheep back off me with my stock stick. We can do little tiny outruns on these sheep, but if I tried to set up anything at a little distance, they would just bolt in several different directions (hence the need for Nick today). I could train Ranger on these sheep; I'd just have to be aware of the bad habits they could create in him with their own behavior. It's no different than trying to train an outrun on super broke sheep that leave for the handler as soon as the dog is sent (and if I had to make a bet, I'd be willing to bet that all the ugliness I see at the top when setting sheep for trials is the direct result of dogs who are trained on sheep who don't stay put until the dog actually gets behind them and lifts them--that is, the sheep's behavior is causing poor work habits in the dog that the trainer/handler never bothered to correct.)

 

So Maja is on the right track to work in a more confined area to limit where the sheep can run. The reason we see Bonnie often coming off to the side to catch the lead sheep's eye is because that's where she needs to be to keep them from running past Maja. It may not be an ideal situation, but sometimes you *do* just have to work with what you've got. I'm spoiled and I like having puppy sheep, and I know that not having them can make things more difficult and make training the basics take a bit longer, but it can be done. I've done it, and I have friends who have done it. (I did it today because it was very hot and humid and it wouldn't have been fair to the puppy sheep to work them with both youngsters, so Ranger, being a little more advanced, got the non-puppy sheep.)

 

Barbs and their relatives certainly aren't for the faint of heart or the slow of foot!

 

J.

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That's too bad. I don't know of Iceland, but I do know of Norway, and have some friends who sheepdog there. They have some Norwegian sheep, and within those, there are dog broke ewes and wethers that they use. Is there any dog trialing in Iceland?

 

Buying dog broke sheep isn´t always as easy as Kelpiegirl suggests.

Take my situation; First off there is just one breed available here; the Icelandic one (well obviously...).

Secondly there are severe restrictions on where I can buy stock in Iceland.

The country has been divided down in parts, after what kinds of diseases occur (they are in effect isolated from each other). You can only buy stock from "clean" areas (free of scrapies and a number of other infectious diseases). This goes so far that officially I am not even allowed to buy from a neighbouring farm (completely absurd as these sheep are in contact the whole summer...).

So yeah, I´d love to buy some nice dog broke ewes, but they simply aren´t available, and then you work with what you got.

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I thought I'd post this picture of these "wild antelopes" that Seth was working, in the open desert, when he was only 1 year old. You can see they are flighty to say the least. Seth even when he was young was a calm working dog. These are mostly Barbados sheep which do look a lot like the ones Maja has. I never did like working Barbs. Seth didn't like them either.

 

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I wouldn't either. I've worked my dog on light sheep, and when they run run run, it just becomes an exercise in cover. I think I will stick with my boring old BLs.

 

 

I thought I'd post this picture of these "wild antelopes" that Seth was working, in the open desert, when he was only 1 year old. You can see they are flighty to say the least. Seth even when he was young was a calm working dog. These are mostly Barbados sheep which do look a lot like the ones Maja has. I never did like working Barbs. Seth didn't like them either.

 

fieldtripseth1.jpg

 

fieldtripseth2.jpg

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Julie,

You explain everything so well :rolleyes:.

 

bcnewe2,

Yes, Julie suggested real life tasks, and I explained that I really want to and I will try but that there are difficulties in designing a doable task in an open area for a young dog.

 

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When Kelly was growing up we had a mean ram to boot. So Kelly has grown to be a very strong and extremely fast dog. I didn't know how fast she was until we had the instructor come to us and I could compare my dog against his dogs. I will never forget when he came, placed his dogs in the enclosed area, where the sheep where, the little rascals just stood there and looked innocent. He turned to us and said, "this is how sheep behave when an experienced dog handles them." That was their cue - the sheep found a weak spot in the positioning of the dogs and shot out of the the enclosure and off into the sunset :D. They also presented later what I call a "Cameroonian maneuver" :D . I am sure other sheep do it too, it's when a sheep goes directly at the dog, the dog summons all of his eye-power to stop the sheep, and the sheep instead of backing off, speeds up and jumps a clear long jump over the dog.

 

Now for mixing Cameroonians with other sheep. We did that of course. First we had two flocks. The dynamics and reactions were so different we had two different flocks, and working with them was one big mess. Then the Cameroonians calmed down a little, and the woollies got a little turbo charged. Then the woollies started to teach the hair sheep bad habits of going thought he electric fence, and we had to fix it sometimes every day. And then we sold the woollies, as they had had no further influence on the other sheep. However, the ram went to live with a large flock of woollies and he behaves just like them. He produced a bunch of crosses with the hopes that the woollies will be a bit less sticky. We will see if it worked.

 

We live in a non-sheep area and are able to sell the lambs because the are pedigreed. The mixes we just about had to give away. the wool is impossible to sell. People with wool sheep jut burn it.

 

Maja

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That's too bad. I don't know of Iceland, but I do know of Norway, and have some friends who sheepdog there. They have some Norwegian sheep, and within those, there are dog broke ewes and wethers that they use. Is there any dog trialing in Iceland?

 

Yes, there is a herding club here "Smalahundafélag Íslands", and they organize trials from time to time. I planned to go to one last spring as it was relatively nearby, but the weather changed that plan; heavy sleet showers on the mountain passes...Ah well better luck next time.

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Here is a new vid with Bonnie. There is one instance where Bonnie scatters the sheep, but such things happen sometimes.

I wonder if I yell at her too much. I have noticed that now when I changed my approach with Julie's help, she reacts much more to my correction, and sometimes I seem to overdo it. I have unfortunately a tendency to yell. I would have liked her to be a bit farther behind the sheep, but I let it go for the time being. I like that Bonnie showed a bit more intensity.

 

 

Maja

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I think Bonnie is coming along nicely. Just as an experiment, I would try to do a five or ten minute session without saying a word. Let Bonnie do the thinking, and see if she can figure out where she needs to be. She needs to figure out the right pace and distance to keep things quietly under control. And when you stop with the sheep, give her a chance to find a balance point to stop on her own. Of course, if she goes into a mindless circle or if she dives in, you have to do something, but I would try body language or guiding with your stick or a verbal AHHH as correction.

Keep up the good work. :rolleyes:

Glenn

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So here are Julie Poudrier's comments:

Hey Maja,

I would say overall I see a lot of improvement. She's staying behind her sheep and walking at a good pace. When she feels comfortable that things are truly under control, she'll probably start giving more space behind the sheep on her own. The whole busting and splitting thing is something a young dog will do sometimes, as you noted, so no big deal. Probably if you had gotten up while telling her to stay (assuming she would have listened), then that wouldn't have happened.

 

Since you asked about voice and commands, I did note that at one point you were saying "stop" I think or something that sounded like that, but you were saying it very rapidly and at a higher pitch. Those kind of tones will get you the opposite of what you wanted--rapid-fire delivery of commands tends to speed a dog up, and often tighten it as well. I've been working on this very thing with a student of mine who is taking lessons using one of my open trial dogs. It's hard to remember to do sometimes, but a slow, calm voice will result in a slower, calmer dog.

 

When working a dog, if you want it to speed up, you usually use a set of quick, repeating whistles, or "hurry, hurry, hurry" or something similar said quickly and with urgency. So when you were saying "stop, stop, stop" (or whatever it was), the way you were saying it was actually having the *opposite* effect on Bonnie than you intended.

 

The "time" command works because it sounds a lot like the first part of the lie down. But in other situations where you want to slow a dog, try to remember to keep your voice lower and slower, if that makes sense. (Any dog will read you and react to you, and tone of voice and delivery can have a huge effect on how the dog responds.)

 

The only other thing that really jumped out at me on the video is that you tend to ask her to lie down when she's not on balance and so she ignores your command, unless you get really forceful with her. Try waiting to ask for the lie down until you are sure she's on balance or close to it. Otherwise, by repeating the lie down, you are in effect teaching her that she can ignore the command the first couple of times you say it. While many of us become much more lax with that with our trained dogs--allowing them to interpret what we really want when we say lie down--when it comes to a youngster you're just starting, it's better to not ask for the lie down unless you're sure the dog is in a position where it will be willing to take the command. That way, lying down feels right to the dog and it will comply on your first request. I've seen lots of dogs who have learned that the command for lie down is "lie down, lie down, lie down" and they never actually stop until the handler has said that third lie down....

 

You can experiment with what works for Bonnie, and certainly during a training session try to do some of your work without giving her any commands, just letting her work and figure out some things for herself. I do this a lot with a young dog and also have students do the same thing. If we've had a short session where we've been demanding obedience (lie down or time, usually), then I give the dog a break from that by just doing some wearing around without saying anything to the dog.

 

Let me know if I actually answered the question you were asking!

 

Julie

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Julie,

 

 

When it comes to calling Bonnie to lie down off-balance it's just a matter of my bad timing. I do not intend to tell her to lie down off-balance. But timing is hard for me because I actually have to say it before she is on balance so that she plops in the right spot by the time I have finished saying it. I can see very well usually when I said it at the right time, because Bonnie plops immediately. The other problem is that sometimes when I say lie down, the sheep move and the point of balance changes. But I am and will try and pay more attention to it. It’s better to not to ask her at all than to ask her at the wrong time.

 

I couldn’t agree more with that “stop, stop, stop” particularly that I do it on purpose to call her of the sheep saying very rapidly “hoch-hoch-hoch-hoch” (it means "come-come-come-come" in Polish) to help her follow me away from the sheep quickly, and she reacts to it very well.

 

Julie and Glenn,

 

You both suggested letting Bonnie work without me saying anything. Actually, right after the herding that I really messed up, I had a separate session where she was able to do anything at all she wanted. I said completely nothing, did nothing and even turned away, just walked about with the sheep. I wanted her to regain her confidence and, maybe it sounds crazy, to miss working with me a little. If I had, which I hadn’t, any doubts that I indeed had pushed her too much before, the “freedom session” confirmed it perfectly – Bonnie kept decent distance and never hit the sheep.

 

I try to let her work on her own a lot without telling her too much, because I know I tend to tell her too much. I need to guide her more and command less, I think. Then she responds the best, because she can work with the sheep and with me.

 

In a moment I will show you something funny with Kelly.

 

Thank you for your comments. They have been of tremendous help, and I am sure not just for me, but for other people too.

 

Maja

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So here is the funny story: I have been telling my husband about your help with Bonnie and then he came across the print-out of Julie’s instructions. So at breakfast he asked me to ask you about Kelly’s tight flank on one of the directions and what to do about it. So I suggested that I’ll make a move of the problem and maybe some good soul will help. So here is the movie:

 

Can you tell which is the problematic direction? I had to ask. The only reason she doesn’t make it broader in both directions is that she is going fence to fence (electric so not very visible on the movie).

 

And now an important question. How do you deal with getting your dog used to training with other dogs? Do you train completely alone when the dog is young? Do you get it used to the (excited) presence of other dogs from the beginning? I am asking this because my friend trains on my sheep to, and I think that Bonnie is always more excited and more difficult to manage when her brother is yapping all the time in the background. On the other hand, I don't want her to grow thinking she is the only herding dog in the world and not be able to deal with a situation when she has to train with other dogs. So I thought that everyonce in a while we should train togather one dog watching anohter, but only seldom. what are your opinions on this?

 

maja

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Here is a short vid with an exercise suggested earlier by a couple of people :D . A couple of my thoughts:

1. I know that most of the time the handler is supposed to face a dog so young in training, rather than turning away but it works this way better sometimes.

2. The fine balance that Julie was talking about is very difficult for me to achieve; in the video, you can see a result of a little too much pressure (swatting my thigh with my hat :rolleyes: ) , which resulted in Bonnie lying down more often.

3. I also did other things with Bonnie in that herding session (practicing lie down on command dead-on balance,widening the circle) but I wanted to show you the figure eight with two places marked, as was suggested. Afterwards I thought it was really silly of me to put the posts where I did, so next time I will put them in a line in front of the camera.

 

 

best wishes,

Maja

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Love the fact you have a coat on; it is hot here in AZ,USA. Nice sheep and pasture. You are so lucky to be able to work.

:rolleyes: The cold is terrible! it should be very warm in June, but I have to wear my coat. it there is global warming then we got left out somehow :D

Maja

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An interesting thing happened today: Kelly was taking the sheep out, with Daisy BMD accompanying the crowd, when she (Daisy) spotted a pack of dogs in the distance. She took the shortest route, through the sheep scattering them and went on to deal with the dogs (a couple of deep barks sufficed), while Kelly (BC) gathered the scattered flock very close to my husband. The interesting thing is that before we had Daisy, in a situation like this, Kelly positioned herself between the dogs and the sheep defending them, and after the dogs left, she gathered the sheep.

 

Maja

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I wasn't going to show this movie, because when I saw it 'uncut' I realized that I still put a load of pressure on Bonnie, and I wanted to address the issue first. But then Julie showed Ranger, so I thought maybe mine can be as a "how not to do" contrast :rolleyes: .

 

Watching myself I saw also what my problem is - I very often do not see while herding that Bonnie is actually reacting to me, so I tend to put more pressure on her. The movie has no original sound, but I do not raise my voice much, as you can see, however, my body language is pretty aggressive, so Bonnie lies down often on her own. I don't think she is a clapper, I think she responds to too much pressure from me that way. I only tell her to lie down before I move through the sheep to send her on balance. I as trying to stop her from making a full circle as usually does, but it wasn't terribly successful.

 

Bonnie is weaving in a couple of places as a result of too much pressure from me, I think. Towards the end, she want to go to the head of the sheep since we are walking towards the gate.

 

 

So my task for tomorrow is to tune myself more to Bonnie's reactions to my corrections and to ease off. Plus i will try to show show how she deals with sheep near the the fence - as I mentioned, she is much faster that Ranger.

 

Maja

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I'm looking forward to tomorrow's video. FWIW, I didn't see anything particularly awful in the video above. She was showing some nice pace. I'm assuming the fast, tight flanks are in response to your pressure and that's where you're talking about putting too much pressure on her?

 

J.

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