Kibble -doesn't break up

[gcv-border]

Not sure if this is an issue or not, but I thought I would throw it out there to get the thoughts/advice of other Board members:

 

A few times in the past few months, Kiefer (my 7 month old pup) would spit up a few chunks of his previous meal. Not that much of a concern to me because it was usually associated with a treat being swallowed too rapidly i.e. there was a definite cause.

 

But what came out did start me wondering and thinking about how long is a reasonable time to expect a piece of kibble to turn into mush. The bits of kibble that would come up were still in a defined shape - obviously larger than dried because they were saturated with gastric juices.

 

I did an experiment by adding excess water to dried kibble. Even after an overnight soak, the kibble retained its shape. If I gently stirred the mixture, the kibble did not break up. It remained rubbery unless really smashed between my fingers.

 

It is possible that gastric juices would cause a more rapid rate of break-up than water, but since I saw essentially the same liquid-expanded kibble pieces be upchucked as long as 4-5 hours after a meal, I am not sure about that.

 

So my question is: What are your thoughts about the fact that this kibble did not break after an extended period of time? Do you think it might affect the digestibility of this kibble?

 

And I also have a request: Since I only have the one type of kibble, I would love to hear sharing from others who may be interested in throwing about 1/4 c of kibble in water and then observing if and when it breaks up easily. Let's call it a casual collection of data.

 

BTW, the kibble I am using is Earthborn Holistic. I usually rotate between Earthborn, Fromm's, TOTW, Blue Buffalo, Solid Gold, Evangers or other grain-free kibble (but in no particular order).

 

Thanks in advance.

 

 

[Maralynn]

Kolt randomly threw up the other day and it was a pile of mush from a meal 3-4 hours previously. But I've also seen dogs throw up in the morning after an evening meal and some of the kibble retained it's shape. I have both NutriSource and some 4health kibble on hand. I'll put some of each in water tonight and see what it's like in the morning.

[Gideon's girl]

I've done this before, and for the same reason. My question is: which Earthborn? I've only fed Great Plains Feast and was "impressed" with the size of the kibble, dime sized and nearly as thin. My experience in the past was that size and shape had some affect on kibble breaking up, which would affect stomach emptying time, and therefore affect digestion. Once the food leaves the stomach, peristalsis would break it up if it doesn't break up in the stomach.

 

I've got Nature's Logic, Brother's Complete, Canidae Pure, and Canine Caviar that I'll soak.

[simba]

If you put meat in a bowl overnight it won't break up into mush. I would imagine it's probably going to be fine once bathed in a sloshing acid bath and once it's had all those digestive enzymes thrown at it.

 

 

Carrots always seem to turn up intact in vomit (for humans) and we can still get nutrition from them, to the point of potentially going orange if you eat too many.

[Sue R]

When Dan had his dental surgery, I soaked his Eagle Pack Holistic Chicken and Rice in warm water until it got very "tender" but I never noticed it breaking up on its own. If I mixed his egg in with it after it had soaked, it kept its shape in general but if I mashed it with a spoon, it broke up pretty readily. Dan is a good chewer and a slow eater (of his kibble - he's Mr Speedy on consuming raw meaty or edible bones). Celt, on the other hand. gulps his food down and hardly chews it at all. Megan is rather half-way between the two, a chewer but faster than Dan.

[Liz P]

I personally prefer kibbles that do break up. I've seen plenty of dogs vomit whole, spongy kibble 24 hours or more after eating it. Sorry, but it ain't natural. It's actually one of my odd requirements of a dog food (easy to digest, IOW, the kibble dissolves in water).

 

I don't want food to sit in my dogs' stomachs for long periods of time. I feed them at night, but I want their stomachs totally empty by morning so they can work without a full belly.

[gcv-border]

Thanks to those who will be trying the 'soak test'.

 

The brand & flavor that I have been using is Earthborn Holistic Meadow Feast with Lamb. It is about the size of a nickel, but a little thicker. I admit that Kiefer is a gulper - thus the bits probably go down whole. I do feed him in one of those bowls that have a raised design so he can not gulp quite as fast.

 

Regarding meat and carrots: I agree that bits of food may turn up somewhat whole when someone vomits, but in general, if chewing (for a human) is thorough, the undigested bits should be small. And I would think that in general, dogs do not eat huge chunks of meat. Don't they rip the muscle off the bone when eating, thus rendering it smaller and more easily digestible? [Yes, I know that dogs can swallow a huge chunk of meat, but that is usually an extreme case. I am more interested in the average situation.]

 

Since the kibble is probably not chewed by the canine, it should break up more easily - IMHO.

 

Liz, spongy is the perfect word to describe the texture of the kibble, even after the overnight soak.

[simba]

They rip off bits, but unless your kibble is quite different from mine the bits they chew or rip off would often be that size. Dogs teeth don't seem built for prolonged chewing, besides those small bits of meat would remain intact in water anyway. It's such a different environment to the digestive system.

[TEC]

Since this is casual data collection, I will add my experience, which may not fit other's. It is always fun to talk about stomach contents . Couple years ago my dog ate a good portion of her sleeping mat. Never happened before or since. I didn't realize what had occurred until she began throwing up large wads of fiber stuffing, somewhat like balls of thread, but coarser. This went on 1-2 times/day for 4-5 days. Fearing a bowel obstruction, I took her to the vet right away. She was eating her kibble normally twice a day, and perhaps drinking a little more water than usual. She acted fine. We worked sheep. Vet said to keep an eye on her, and let him know if anything changed. He said X-rays can provide false sense of security.

 

She threw up for a couple more days. I had difficulty understanding how her stomach could hold that volume of material, and yet eat, drink and eliminate normally. The wads of material she threw-up were virtually clean. No significant particles of food were included -- just chunks of bedding. That along with the sheer volume of material were remarkable to me.

 

Feeding habits: She eats hard kibble, not soaked with water or gravies. She takes 1-3 in her mouth and chews quite thoroughly before swallowing. Upon finishing she drinks a large volume of water .

 

That's what happened. I will not attempt to interpret it. I'll soak kibble in dishes of water and vinegar (only handy acid I can think of) and report back. -- TEC

[Liz P]

A few months ago I had a case of a dog with a growing mass. The dog had the mass for about 4 years, bit it was getting larger and harder. The owners were concerned. Fine needle aspirates were not providing answers. The owners decided to have it removed and biopsied. For senior pets going in for mass removal, we offer a work up prior to surgery that includes radiographs to make sure there isn't any spread of cancer in the chest or abdomen. The owners elected to do this.

 

I was in my office writing up charts when I was paged to radiology. The techs were all really excited to show me her pictures.

 

There was a spoon, in the mass.

 

Think about that for a second.

 

So, I called the owners and asked if they were missing a spoon. Yes, they were in fact missing a spoon. The dog had snatched it off the table 10 months previously. Because the dog had never thrown up, they assumed she had not, in fact, eaten it. They must have been mistaken when they thought they saw her gulp it down.

 

Dogs goes in for surgery. Now we don't care so much about the mass. Now we are worried about what we will find in her abdomen. The spoon had sat in the stomach for 10 months, so was badly corroded by the acid. It had eventually punctured the stomach wall, migrated through the spleen then out the body wall and into the mass, where it was currently located. The dog had a section of her stomach, her entire spleen and a section of her body wall removed, along with the mass. The dog made a full recovery.

 

The spoon now lives in a picture frame in my office.

 

Two years ago I had the case of a cat that came in for a "lump between it's shoulder blades." It was an abscess, not an unusual occurrence for a cat. I sedated her and lanced the abscess. While cleaning it out I found a sewing needle and thread. The cat had run off with them nearly 6 months previously. She must have swallowed them. At some point they punctured her esophagus and migrated through her body until they reached their current location.

 

I once had a case of a dog that was vomiting off and on. Radiographs showed something ring shaped in the stomach. We removed a pacifier. The owner did not have children, but a friend had come to visit with her baby about 5 months previously. She was able to ID the pacifier.

 

One of my very first foreign body cases right out of vet school was a dog that had been vomiting for a year. No one could find a cause. Nothing showed up on rads. We went in to explore the abdomen and found her son's lost bouncy ball (the type you get for 25 cents out of a gum ball machine). It had been rolling around in the stomach, occasionally blocking the exit and causing a temporary obstruction. The dog would vomit, popping it out and feel better for awhile.

 

You would be surprised what can sit in a stomach for a very, very long time.

[Maxi]

^^ Fascinsting case histories, thanks Liz for sharing these

[gcv-border]

When I was a kid (many moons ago), our family moved from Michigan (close in suburbs to Detroit, tiny houses and yards) to Vermont (out in the country). Our dog, a dachsund, was, not surprisingly, loving all the little animals he found - snakes, moles, voles, squirrels, etc. One day he tangled with a porcupine. He tried to bite it, leaving him with quills inside his mouth and on his head and neck area. The vet put him under and pulled out all he could find. Over the next few months, as we pet the dog, we would feel a quill coming out from under his skin in the neck or back area. About 6-8 months after the incident, the dog died. The vet found a quill in the pancreas.

[Gideon's girl]

All of mine were still formed this morning. The Nature's Logic and Brother's Complete offered to break up with just a little swirling. They were more like soggy bread rather than sponge.

[Maralynn]

Last night I covered the bottom of two food dishes with one kibble in each. Put water in so it was even with the top of the kibble.

 

Both were still formed this morning. The nutrisource started to break up pretty easily when stirred with my finger. The 4health still had some sponginess to it, but seemed drier as well so I'm wondering if more water would have done the trick. The food Kolt ate the other day was 4health and is was mush when he puked a few hours later.

[TEC]

Liz, you have removed an incredible array of objects from dogs and cats. You must wonder what will be found next? Glad the pets are feeling better.

 

I placed 10-12 whole kibble pieces of two brands mixed in two bowls at room temperature, one with white vinegar and the other tap water. I more than covered them in liquid.

 

I crushed a kibble mixture before placing placing it in a third bowl, covered with vinegar. Attempted to simulate the amount of crush that my dog seemed to accomplish by chewing. Clearly an estimate.

 

Both Nutro brand and Science Diet (both uncrushed) remained formed in original shapes after soaking 12 hours. They expanded to perhaps twice original volume from absorption of water or vinegar. Light agitation in the bowls by swishing around for 30 seconds did not change their shape, nor was appearance of fluid affected.

 

Between my fingers each kibble piece seemed rubbery, and rebounded to original shape on medium pressure. More pressure, and the kibble deformed slightly, and strong pressure caused it to begin to break apart.

 

The crushed kibble had the same results. Broken pieces of kibble rebounded to original shape on medium pressure, and similar results to whole pieces on increasing pressure.

 

White distilled vinegar is pH 2.4 at concentration 5%. That is roughly the pH of dogs' stomach fluid, which varies among individuals and breeds. The literature indicates that pH's <2 or >5 are unusual. Low pH is acidic, 7 is neutral like pure water, and high pH is alkaline. The scale runs 0-14.

 

Conclusion/Discussion: My understanding is that a lot more is going-on in a dog's stomach than mere acidity level, including action of digestive enzymes (not tested). Stomach acid in dogs and humans is due to HCl, but vinegar is an organic acid. So the vinegar alone did not IMO entirely replicate dogs' stomach fluid. Kibbles tested are tough stuff, and not surprising that some dogs vomit nicely formed whole pieces hours after eating.

 

Interesting question, Jovi. So much for kitchen kibble chemistry, for now. Back to mowing the lawn, removing pine needles from my roof, and checking that snow blower starts/runs. -- TEC

[geonni banner]

I personally prefer kibbles that do break up. I've seen plenty of dogs vomit whole, spongy kibble 24 hours or more after eating it. Sorry, but it ain't natural. It's actually one of my odd requirements of a dog food (easy to digest, IOW, the kibble dissolves in water).

 

I don't want food to sit in my dogs' stomachs for long periods of time. I feed them at night, but I want their stomachs totally empty by morning so they can work without a full belly.

So what brands do break down, in your experience?

[Jescano]

Orijen breaks down pretty easily.

[Liz P]

Jovi, unfortunately that happens quite a bit. I always warn owners of dogs that get quilled that they can have long term, life threatening consequences of quill migration. I've seen the quills puncture the heart, lungs, major vessels, the liver...

[Gideon's girl]

Another one of those deadly herbivores. I'm glad we don't have porkies down here. The ones I've seen in other places were of quite an intimidating size.