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I'm So Naive About The Dog Show World


Mark Billadeau

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I'm so naive when it comes to the dog show world. I understood that judging was very subjective and breeds standards were really what the judges were "putting up" at any given point in time. However, I didn't know that magazine ads were part of this subjective breed standard until I watched a TV show about Westminster and what goes into campaigning a dog.

 

I found this article about campaigning a dog for Westminster.

 

Hype, Money and Cornstarch: What It Takes to Win at Westminster

 

 

 

The ads are a bit like those “for your consideration” campaigns for Oscar nominees, and they’re bought for essentially the same reason: to sway decision makers in a realm in which there is debate about what is “the best.” Lobbying for a St. Bernard, for instance, wouldn’t work if everyone agreed about what constitutes a great St. Bernard. And if St. Bernard greatness were the sort of thing that could be measured with a ruler and calipers, you wouldn’t need judges. A computer would suffice.

 

But there is no unanimity about St. Bernards or any other breed, and judges are human. So at magazines like Dog News, the ads keep pouring in. Often called the bible of the dog show world, Dog News is a weekly published by Harris Publications out of an office on Broadway in Manhattan. Other titles in Harris’s eclectic stable include Guns and Weapons, the hip-hop title XXL and the comic book Vampirella.

 

Most magazines are struggling with a downturn in ads. Not Dog News. It’s about 75 percent ads and runs as long as 600 pages in issues coinciding with big shows. Prices vary from $250 for a full-page black-and-white ad to $4,000 for the cover.

 

Yes, the cover is an ad.

 

“I don’t have a single staffer to solicit ads,” says Matthew Stander, publisher of Dog News. “They come to us unsolicited.”

 

Judges are the main target — they are sent the magazine gratis — and they star along with the dogs in most of the ads. There’s a tradition at shows of taking a photograph of winning dogs along with the judges who selected them, and most of the ads are little more than that photo and a cutesy tag line.[/url]

 

 

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If the winning dog is REALLY the one that most closely meets the written standard why do breeders, owners, handlers, feel that spending the money on ads improves the odds that their dog will be selected as the one that most closely meets the written standard?

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Dear Doggers,

And being a "champ[ion" means what?

 

Donald McCaig

I imagine (aside from the ego side of things) that to the owner it means more money from the offspring of said champion, because if your dog's a winner, then everyone else is going to want one just like it.

 

But for the rest of the world, a desgination of champion becomes essentially meaningless, since there's certainly no guarantee that the dog in question actually meets (or even comes within spitting distance) of the written breed standard, for whatever that's worth.

 

J.

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Being a Ch means the owners have a bunch of money! I have often seen the judge wach the handlers as they enter the ring and not the dogs. I even had one judge say to me (I was helping a friend by being a stewart-someone who assists the judge with ribons etc)"Wouldn't you know it! The worse dog in the ring is handled by S______ G____ (handler's name)?" He went ahead and put the worse dog in first place because the prestigous handler was showing it.

 

Some of the old timer judges were actually 'dog men' who knew dogs and put up good structure. Alas that is not the case for the most today.

 

For the record, I detest breed showing! I have worked for handlers to train their dogs to show. I have taught dogs to behave in such a manner as to hide faults and these dogs won often and quickly even though they were inferior specimines. They were 'flashy' in the ring and caught the judges attention.

 

And Julie, in some cases the 'champion' is not actually the dog it is said to be.

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The ads are not just for judges. I know my dog won't win because I put an ad in. For me its fun. He is my first bredby champion I finished myself.

Also, having a champion doesn't mean you have money. I make 25k a year. I have champion dogs. Doesn't mean I can sell puppies for lots of money because I don't sell dogs to show homes, I might sell them as cheap pets or GIVE them away to performance homes.

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It doesn't just happen in the dog show world. In the Quarter horse Journal a large percentage is ads, as well. Breeding studs, mares, etc. are advertised, as well as performance horses and riders. The idea is to give some "cred" to the animal and rider- in other words, the horse and rider are photographed with a QH Congress sign behind it and a blue ribbon-, subtly saying "We won here...you know we should win when you are judging or at so and so's show". Not just halter horses, either- reining, roping, cutting, they all do it. It's a subtle form of pressure, both for the judges and the other riders they will be competing against.

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With all these things being true, please don't make the common error of judging all the show people the same way. To some people having a beauty champion means that they think they have a very beautiful dog.

 

Maja

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good structure.

Ahhh...there's that word! Talked to a show-ring person last week, and I thought I would gag if I heard the word "structure" one more time!

A

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The word that makes me gag is "correct." Correct (or incorrect) can mean anything from good balance and angulation to a dime-sized spot of white to the right or wrong number of dew-claws. FEH!

 

About dogs which most closely resemble the breed standard. A breed standard is a lot like the Bible. There's all kinds of ways to interpret it. And yes, judges are human - they have preferences. If one wants to quickly finish a champion in a competitive breed one would be well advised to show under judges that share your aesthetic. This takes research and planning. I read in 1990 that it costs on average about $1000 dollars per point to finish a champion in the breed ring. This includes travel expenses, handler's fees, entry fees, etc. But I have seen a promising puppy of 10 mos. finish in 4 or five "cluster" shows, and have "Ch. bred" pups on the ground at the age of one year. By the time his first litter is a year old he may bear scant resemblance to the pup that garnered all those ribbons.

 

Of course you can finish a dog that is a mess if you concentrate on all-breed shows with smaller and less competitive classes than a specialty. Judges are technically permitted to withhold points if the class before them is composed of terrible representatives of the breed - but few do. The average puppy buyer doesn't know the difference between one Ch. and another. They're just wowed by all the Ch. prefixes in their pup's pedigree.

 

The whole breed-ring milieu is rotten. But then, I guess I'm preaching to the choir here... ;)

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Its called not all judges are quite as up to date with the breeds as they should be. The all breeds judges aren't going to know the ends and out of all the breeds they judge. They might/ SHOULD know the differents in the breeds for DQ's and such but not all do. Most have already a desire imagine in what a dog should look like, the "correct" movement and structure. But that might not always meet what standard says. Also a flashy dog is gonna catch your eye before the darks ones do. Or if all you see is full white collar the chances of you putting up a dog with a half collar are slim. Even if all else is equal.

 

But yeah its preaching to the choir.

 

Conformation judging is what it is. If you want a CH you accept it or go elsewhere. If you don't want the CH you make fun of the process and obscurity of the little rules that rule the ring.

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SS Cressa: "Its called not all judges are quite as up to date with the breeds as they should be. The all breeds judges aren't going to know the ends and out of all the breeds they judge."

 

It is not preaching to the choir. The choir does not care what the breed ring standards are because they are empty of meaning.

 

Penny

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Its called not all judges are quite as up to date with the breeds as they should be. The all breeds judges aren't going to know the ends and out of all the breeds they judge. They might/ SHOULD know the differents in the breeds for DQ's and such but not all do. Most have already a desire imagine in what a dog should look like, the "correct" movement and structure. But that might not always meet what standard says.

So, you are saying that "all breed judges" really aren't qualified to do the judging job they are paid to do, and to even begin to determine which dogs are the ones that should be winning points. Right?

 

It just sounds like the show ring is pretty rotten to the core (as if the concept alone isn't, judging on appearance) - money talks, judges at all breed shows are not really qualified to make decisions, and so on.

 

I hear the choir singing...

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Generally speaking, the rest of the world thinks that most of the things "dog people" do with their dogs is essentially meaningless.

Okay, maybe I should have clarified that I'm talking about the world of dog people. Obviously the world at large is essentially clueless, though I imagine they are the very folks who would really be impressed by a champion title, since they'd have nothing to judge it by, other than the generic definition of champion.

 

J.

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well most show people I know, say they all know this, and they wouldnt change a thing. all the while preaching about how showing is about "proper working structure" lol

 

that said, I showed Electra(Toller) for a while, I didnt spend any money aside from entry fee's, less then $100 total for the 5 shows I entered her in, I owner handled(and I was so clueless I filled the regitration out wronge lol), I gave her a bath, I ran a brush through her and popped her in the ring..she won her breed in every show(no she was not the only Toller lol) and made group cut in 2, if I showed her one more weekends she would have finished..but I spayed her instead(epilepsy), so showing doesnt REQUIRE lots of money to finish dog, it just does if you want to be a westmin. BIS winner lol

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I disagree about CH not meaning anything to the general public. If I say my dog got her MACh I get blank looks. I say my dog earn her CH. And peoples eyes light up and they have somewhat of a grasp of what I am talking about. And I don't even want to know how much I actually spent on earning that MACH. Yet I am a college student who works to pay rent, living expense, dogs care, etc... Hardly rich if u ask me.

 

Y do u think u hear of breeder and people who care for their breeds argue that there needs to be more indept discussion on their breeds. U can prop argue the same for doctors. A general/"family" Dr knows way less then a specialist Dr in their choosen field. Yet the familt Dr does know the basic for different dieases just not as intenstive as the specialist.

 

Also u can't forget ur perfect dogs isn't the perfect dog for the next person. Each person has their own favorite.

 

but eh, :) whatever.

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Conformation judging is what it is. If you want a CH you accept it or go elsewhere. If you don't want the CH you make fun of the process and obscurity of the little rules that rule the ring.

 

Okay, but the question is: What sense does it make to want a CH if the standard is arbitrary and meaningless, many judges are incompetent, and most are influenced by ads and handler prestige?

 

You could say, "The Working Stock Dog World Registry is what it is. If you want to be registered by them you accept it. If you don't want to be registered by them, you make fun of their process and obscurity." That may be so, but surely the more important question is whether there's any good reason to want to be registered by them. Same is true of getting a conformation championship.

 

I disagree about CH not meaning anything to the general public. If I say my dog got her MACh I get blank looks. I say my dog earn her CH. And peoples eyes light up and they have somewhat of a grasp of what I am talking about.

 

Nobody said the general public's eyes don't light up over a CH. But they don't know much about it, do they? They just know it stands for "Champion," and they think, being clueless, that a dog who's a Champion must be better than other dogs. So I guess there's a reason for wanting a CH -- to impress ignorant people who know little or nothing about how it's done and what it signifies.

 

I guess saying your dog is registered with the Working Stock Dog World Registry might impress them too.

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I show dogs because I enjoy it. I enjoy the time with my dogs, I enjoy grooming them, I enjoy showing them and yes, I enjoy winning with them. I enjoy it so I pretty much ignore the political stuff and I always know I'm going home with the best dogs no matter what happens in the ring.

It not really fair for you guys to put it down if you've never done it. I actually think its ignorant to put down something most of you know very little about.

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If you enjoy showing dogs in the same way people like competing at beauty pageants; have at it.

 

However, unlike beauty pageants, the show ring has an additional purpose: selecting the best dogs for breeding. What this thread points out is that with the right amount of money or personal influence your dog can be selected as the best dog for breeding purposes regardless of how well it agrees with the written standard. How is this process improving the breed?

 

 

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