Pam Wolf Posted January 3, 2011 Report Share Posted January 3, 2011 Why someone would breed a young working dog to an unproven sport bitch? Why is it acceptable for big hats to breed to sport/show dogs? Why do people hide genetic issues in their lines? Why do people threaten others when they come out about genetic problems with a line? Just first of the year ponderings Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dream spirit Posted January 3, 2011 Report Share Posted January 3, 2011 Pam, your questions are akin to sticking a hot poker into a hornets nest I think money , pride are two words that come to mind. As to "big hats" breeding without the highest of standard or selling pups to sport homes and not getting flack for it is because the ARE big hats. Unless they are standing on a soapbox and berating others while they themselves are doing it it is out of anyones control but the big hat who breeds and sells this way. I feel that there is not much that can be done about what someone else is doing with their dogs, unless it is so bad it calls for disiplinary action. We just need to focus on our own dogs, do right by them as we see it. When all is said and done that is really all that matters Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Journey Posted January 3, 2011 Report Share Posted January 3, 2011 Did you get a new flame retardant suit Pam? Can you or more to the point "will you " give examples to your original post? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bcnewe2 Posted January 3, 2011 Report Share Posted January 3, 2011 So I heard 2nd hand that a "Very Big Hat" feels that if he doesn't let others that aren't up to the snuff that is talked about here use his stud dogs, then what they will they be breeding to is less. And that better to try and better all the dogs bred out there than to stand and just say no knowing the lesser dog owner is going to breed to something one way or another. Like I said I heard this 2nd hand but from a pretty reliable source. Still smells of money in my pea brain. IMHO, you have to stand on what you believe. I won't fight ACK in a peeing contest, I just won't add to that gene pool or monetarily in anyway shape or form and if asked my opinion or if I can state it without blood shed I will. I fight the fight in small doses, doing what I can with education and opinions if anyone is listening. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eileen Stein Posted January 4, 2011 Report Share Posted January 4, 2011 Why someone would breed a young working dog to an unproven sport bitch? S/he wants the stud fee. Why is it acceptable for big hats to breed to sport/show dogs? Acceptable to whom? It's not acceptable to me. Not much I can do about it, however. Why do people hide genetic issues in their lines? If they stop breeding the dogs in question, they hide the issues because they're embarrassed or sad to acknowledge that they've bred defective dogs. If they continue breeding the dogs in question, they hide the issues because they don't want to risk losing buyers and they don't give a damn about anything else. Why do people threaten others when they come out about genetic problems with a line? Never encountered this, but I assume because they don't want to stop breeding their dogs of that line, and don't want people to know there is potential for genetic problems in the dogs they breed. Hope this helps, though I don't really see how it could be much help. Don't see anything here you wouldn't have thought of yourself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eileen Stein Posted January 4, 2011 Report Share Posted January 4, 2011 So I heard 2nd hand that a "Very Big Hat" feels that if he doesn't let others that aren't up to the snuff that is talked about here use his stud dogs, then what they will they be breeding to is less. And that better to try and better all the dogs bred out there than to stand and just say no knowing the lesser dog owner is going to breed to something one way or another. I've heard before about this altruistic desire to "try and better all the dogs bred out there [rather] than to stand and just say no knowing the lesser dog owner is going to breed to something one way or another." Somehow I've never heard of this concern for the welfare of the next generation extend to waiving the stud fee. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liz P Posted January 4, 2011 Report Share Posted January 4, 2011 I've heard that argument as well, and it doesn't make sense to me. There are not perfect stud dogs out there just waiting to revolutionize the breed. Each one has its faults and would only be a good match for certain females (NOT all). You can only know which dogs will (probably) cross well by working both of them to discover their strengths and weaknesses. So if you breed a proven stud to a bitch that isn't trained or barely started, how do you know you are helping? How do you know that your stud is the "better" dog for that particular bitch? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liz P Posted January 4, 2011 Report Share Posted January 4, 2011 To Eileen, I am not sure I totally believe the money argument, at least not in every case. Many times the stud owner is quite comfortable financially. Are they so shallow that their pocket book is top priority? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demon Puppy Posted January 4, 2011 Report Share Posted January 4, 2011 Why do you ask the questions here? Why not ask them of the breeder you have an issue with? That is the only way you will get an answer. Asking here will only get your own speculations repeated back to you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liz P Posted January 4, 2011 Report Share Posted January 4, 2011 Why do you ask the questions here? Why not ask them of the breeder you have an issue with? That is the only way you will get an answer. Asking here will only get your own speculations repeated back to you. There are breeders on here who have done it. Maybe they will chime in and given their reasons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pam Wolf Posted January 4, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 4, 2011 Just ponderings, nothing more. Wondering other's ideas/attitudes towards them. While there are specifics, do we need them? don't we all know someone who fits these categories? Do you just sit back or do you actually say something to those you know? BTW, don't need flame retardant, I am a thick skinned old codger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pam Wolf Posted January 4, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 4, 2011 Perhaps those who do so will post their reasons as Liz posted. Others will give their speculations. Why the antagonism? Can we not have a civil discussion? I have no issue with any particular breeder (at the moment These are just points that I've seen posted time and again on these and other boards, yet I find that many spouting them do not embrace them. Would you* approach a big hat you know who breeds to any dog that comes along with a stud fee? Would you* approach a working breeder who bred to an unproven sport/show bitch? Would you* let others know you had genetic problems in your line? Would you* threaten someone who told you there were genetic problems in your line? You* is a generic you and no one specific. Before you ask, I have done all but threaten someone for telling me about a problem, and I have been threatened for enlightening someone about a problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demon Puppy Posted January 4, 2011 Report Share Posted January 4, 2011 Ah, I read it as a specific frustration that was burning in your gut, which is why I dropped my seagull comment about the only way to get answers as to why someone does something is to ask those who did it. People posting their convictions that the only reason is because people want money and have character flaws didn't seem likely to inspire discussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eileen Stein Posted January 4, 2011 Report Share Posted January 4, 2011 I have been threatened for enlightening someone about a problem. Just out of curiosity, what were you threatened with? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pam Wolf Posted January 4, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 4, 2011 The standard, lawsuite. Didn't bother me nor stop me from telling others since as far as I know one cannot be sued over telling verifyable truth. Just recently I know a couple of people who have told other breeders that they know of issues with certain lines such as deafness or epilepsy. The breeders threaten lawsuites to shut the people up. Of course most people cave to such threats. But Unless I am mistaken it is not illegal nor slander to say "so and so's dog produces XXXXXXX" when you have verifyable proof that the dog produced the problem. Additionally these comments usually take place in private correspondences not on public boards. I just can't wrap my mind around such selfishness and lack of concern for the breed with these sorts of ideas. I personally would like to know of potential problems before breeding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debbie Meier Posted January 4, 2011 Report Share Posted January 4, 2011 Comes down to, it takes two, both the male and the female had to be at minimum carriers. So the bitch owner is equally responsible for producing defective dogs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pam Wolf Posted January 4, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 4, 2011 Yes in the case of recessives, it does take both but at least the person willing to acknowledge and be open about a problem is offering info for others to consider when breeding. And it does not seem to most who is informed, be it the stud owner or the owner of a bitch or the breeder about to cross two dogs known to produce problems. People just don't seem to want to be open about information. It seems there is such a taboo on talking about problems probably from fear of not being able to sell dogs-again money comes into play. If people were reasonable and understood the potential problems then others could make an informed decision. At least if the owner of one dog knows the potential problem they can look for a suitable dog that is not a known carrier in the case of recessives. Information is essential for this reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debbie Meier Posted January 4, 2011 Report Share Posted January 4, 2011 Should a breeder advertise all possible carriers as defective? If so, does anyone have dogs that are defect free? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debbie Meier Posted January 4, 2011 Report Share Posted January 4, 2011 So here's a question, if the bitch owner made sure that their dog was defect free would it matter? I guess I have to wonder about a bitch owner that is worried about the genetic predisposition of the male, makes me think that they don't really know and that their female may be affected or a recessive carrier. ETA: I guess what I wonder is how many bitch owners would go to that stud dog owner and say, my dog has epilepsy, HD or CEA in her lines when they inquire about having their dog bred Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MyTDogs Posted January 4, 2011 Report Share Posted January 4, 2011 There is a situation that I am aware of right now. There is a known issue in the parents (both). So owner of the sire is insisting on testing all offspring or else she will not sign off on the breeding. However, same sire remains untested for a multitude of other possibilities- perhaps owner didn't want to make the investment? or thought the results may not be perfect? I think it is important to be up front about the possibilities when selling a pup. But also point out that there is no guarantee in anything. There is no way to breed a perfect puppy. Breeders can do their best but the buyer is always taking a risk when they buy...any number of issues could arise. As a newbie to herding....I think it is hard to call people out- especially to their face and especially if they are a "Big Hat" or even someone who has been around longer & has many more friends in the sport. A lot of this sport is about acquaintances & friendships & nothing could bury you faster than to make accusations against a well respected handler & breeder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted January 4, 2011 Report Share Posted January 4, 2011 Should a breeder advertise all possible carriers as defective? If so, does anyone have dogs that are defect free? Huh? Who said carriers of anything need to be advertised as defective? As a potential puppy buyer I would certainly like to know what possible problems exist in a line. I'm not looking for guarantees on a pup, but if an owner of a stud or bitch knows that deafness, or epilepsy, or even retained testicles has been produced from one or both sides of a potential cross, then I think the ethical thing to do is state that. If I, as a buyer, know that the potential for such problems exist, then I have the choice of taking a pup anyway because I really like the dogs being bred and am willing to take the chance on a problem popping up, or I can keep looking until I find a litter for which there is no evidence of problems. That of course won't guarantee me a perfect, problem-free pup, but at least I'd be able to make an informed decision. Take retained testicles, not something life threatening (unless you leave them there and they develop cancer), doesn't affect the working ability of the dog, but it does affect breedability. It can be carried through either sire or dam. I know of a dog from whom two litters both contained pups with retained testicles. When someone approached the owner of that dog about breeding his bitch, I wondered if the dog's owner bothered to forewarn the bitch's owner about the possibility of retained testicles. In this case, there would be no harm to the working ability of any offspring, but if you're trying to continue a line or create a breeding program, the potential lack of breedability of the offspring of a particular cross is relevant. I had someone ask me about my bitch who has had seizures in the past but seems to be seizure-free right now (interested in buying her). The first thing out of my mouth was that she has had seizures and there's no way she should be bred, which is likely the course a new owner would have taken (how often do we hear, well, you can breed her and make your purchase money back by selling puppies?). Instead I suppose I could have kept my mouth shut, sold the dog and hoped she never had a seizure for the new owner. Then he could have bred her and produced more potential seizure dogs. I think that sort of thing probably happens often enough. I wouldn't want to take part in such practices, though, because I consider it unethical. Cindy is correct, though, that calling out big hats or anyone else could make life very unpleasant for the person doing to calling out. The working stockdog community is pretty darn small and memories are pretty darn long. Even if the person were speaking the truth, I expect there would be repercussions. So until breeders themselves are willing to stand on their spoken principles and be ethical in their breeding practices, I don't think there's much the average person can do. (And I realize that this is a generalization and that there are plenty of breeders who are completely open about any problems in their lines. As an interesting aside, I wonder, though, if breeders always know about the issues that might have cropped up in dogs they've produced. The owner of the problem dog would have to let the breeder know, and that might not always be the case either.) I'm not advocating a culture of testing, by the way. And I know people don't want to necessarily spread what amounts to gossip, but at the same time, if you ask enough questions of enough people, you can find some things out, even if that information has been kept quiet in general. It's just not the ideal way to have to go about it, IMO. J. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debbie Meier Posted January 4, 2011 Report Share Posted January 4, 2011 People just don't seem to want to be open about information In all reality the information is not pertinent unless you are engaged in the cross or purchasing offspring of the cross. Also, as far people being open, it may depend on who you are and what you have done with the information in the past. One of the pups we purchased is related to a dog that is owned by a handler that had another dog that went blind, I called the owner of that dog and he openly discussed the blind dog and his pedigree, I discovered that the dog in question is not related to my pup. How much more open can you get? It's hard to be open about someone elses dogs issues if you are not the person who owns the dog with the issues, or are not direction privey to the actual diagnosis. If you were the breeder of a dog that went blind after an injury would you want people to be open about that blindness if they didn't understand the cause and only knew that the dog went blind? People tend to jump on the genetic defect bandwagon and assume it is genetic. Sometimes it is, sometimes it is not and sometimes you can't determine if it is or isn't and you have to decide if the dog is good enough to risk it and mate it. To a certain degree I wonder if some are considering the rumor mill to be "open disclosure". I think that many are hesitent to share news of a defect in someone elses dogs when they do not know the entire story, for many it is business. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liz P Posted January 4, 2011 Report Share Posted January 4, 2011 If I, as a buyer, know that the potential for such problems exist, then I have the choice of taking a pup anyway because I really like the dogs being bred and am willing to take the chance on a problem popping up, or I can keep looking until I find a litter for which there is no evidence of problems. I agree with 99% of what you said, this statement being the exception. There isn't a dog on the face of the earth without genetic health problems running in their lines. It's just a matter of whether or not you know about them, and it is the unknown problems that cause breeders the most grief. That is why I feel it is so important for breeders to be honest. If you cover up a problem, other people can't make informed breeding decisions. Maybe I misread your statement though and instead you were trying to say you have a choice of finding a different litter in which that particular problem is less likely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debbie Meier Posted January 4, 2011 Report Share Posted January 4, 2011 Julie, Pam was using the term "Recessive Carriers" in an earlier post, I was taking that to mean a "Carrier". I may have misread or misunderstood her post but I took it as suggesting that there was a lack of openness on carriers and it should not be that way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted January 4, 2011 Report Share Posted January 4, 2011 Maybe I misread your statement though and instead you were trying to say you have a choice of finding a different litter in which that particular problem is less likely. ^^This is what I meant. That's why I noted that going to a different litter wouldn't guarantee me a perfect, problem-free pup. J. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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