A Questrion of collars.

[desertranger]

Jin, 9 wks, got a choke chain as his first collar. I've used them all my life to train dogs and gave never had a problem. I signed Jin up for beginner classes and the instructor had me get a training collar that was a web with a piece of chain to pull the web tight when pulled on. My first thought was Great a gadget for people who do not know how to use a choker. I think I have Bonnie the trainer convinced I kn ow how to use a traditional choker. I would like to know your opinion and what kind of collar you use.

 

 

Oh yeah, I got Jin a prong horn choker. You know the kind use by people who can't control their dogs. It's sized for a mastif. Think I'll put that on him for the first day of class.

[Maralynn]

I use a traditional flat collar for most all training work. Unless there is a special circumstance, I see no reason to use a different type of collar.

 

And I'd never use a choke collar on a dog. They have on occassion caused some dogs tracheas to collapse. And if they get caught on something they can choke your dog. Besides, I see no reason to use any type of correction collar on a puppy. Puppy work should be fun and motivational , if you do it right there is not really any need for corrections.

 

I do have a prong collar that I use occasionally for one of my dogs, but I'd never use a prong on a pup either.

[JaderBug]

And I'd never use a choke collar on a dog. They have on occassion caused some dogs tracheas to collapse.

 

This is more common in smaller dogs (almost all toy dogs, pugs are one breed that comes to mind) because the cartilaginous rings that give the trachea structure are not complete- they have a gap in them. I also think that's with the misuse of choke chains... if you can use them correctly, I think they can be a good tool.

 

I think a similar argument can be made for prong collars too- there are good things and bad things about both types.

[juliepoudrier]

I agree with Maralynn. I don't really see a reason to use a choke chain on a puppy. Heck, my puppies usually start out in cutesie cat collars, if anything at all. Even if you know how to use a choke chain properly, I just don't think it's necessary for training a young puppy. Once my pups graduate from cat collars, they usually go into flat buckle collars or hunt ("ring-in-center") collars.

 

J.

[desertranger]

At the moment he just wears it when we go out and all that's being done is lead training. I figure by the end of the week he should be lead trained and know how to sit. The problem with most people using chokers is they pull it hard and and hold it. It's supposed to be a light tug and let it go. Or shake it so it makes noise. After my dogs are trained the collars come off so they are silent on the trail. A prong horn chain (mastif size) on a puppy? It's a joke hun. I'd never use one of those on a dog. Anyone who does shouldn't own a dog anyway.

[CoRayBee]

A prong horn chain (mastif size) on a puppy? It's a joke hun. I'd never use one of those on a dog. Anyone who does shouldn't own a dog anyway.

 

I'm curious...did you mean anyone who puts a prong collar on a puppy shouldn't own one, or anyone who uses prong collars in general? If it's the former then I'd agree with you. If it's the latter, then I'd best keep my reply to myself.

[RaisingRiver]

I know how to use a choker, but never ever do - don't even own one. All my dogs use rolled leather collars, but as puppies start out with supercute adjustable nylons. I like rolled leather because it doesn't break neck hairs as much as any flat collar, leather or nylon. All my dogs wear collars 24/7 but I know many dogs here only wear theirs when they leave their houses.

[juliepoudrier]

Desertranger,

I think it would be fair to say there are no absolutes, right? Several of us wouldn't use a choke chain (even knowing how to use it correctly) because we don't find it necessary. Others use prong collars, for which the argument could be made--just as with choke chains--that used correctly they have their time and place. Saying a person who uses a prong collar shouldn't own a dog is like me saying to you that you shouldn't own a dog because you use a choke chain. (BTW, I don't use a prong--just pointing out the inconsistency in your thinking/argument here.)

 

I hope that your dogs have some sort of ID on them (tattoo or microchip) if they are allowed to run trails without a collar (most collars without tags don't make noise--you'll find that those of us who raise livestock don't want jingling, noisy collars either) because dogs--even the best trained ones--can get lost, and folks are much more quick to assume that an uncollared dog is a stray than they are a collared one. Of course it's probably moot in the areas you roam, because I imagine they are extremely sparsely populated....

 

J.

[Jack & Co.]

Puppy work should be fun and motivational , if you do it right there is not really any need for corrections.

 

I do have a prong collar that I use occasionally for one of my dogs, but I'd never use a prong on a pup either.

Well said, Maralynn.

[desertranger]

I'm curious...did you mean anyone who puts a prong collar on a puppy shouldn't own one, or anyone who uses prong collars in general? If it's the former then I'd agree with you. If it's the latter, then I'd best keep my reply to myself.

 

Oh my. Let me straighten this out.

 

What I mean is anyone who uses a prong horn collar should have it placed on themselves and then be dragged around by it.

 

 

I have one, that is 1, extra large prong horn choker. It is used to drive people crazy. Now picture this, a 9 week old ball of fluff wearing one. How cute! it;s bigger than he is. It's will be bigger than he is when he's full grown. The reason for owning it is simple. Photographs. It's a prop not a tool.

 

Please let me make this perfectly clear, I would never use anything as barbaric as a prong horn collar or muzzle on any dog. However I can think of a lot people who could certainly benefit from having one the other or both. Start with George W Bush ex-president of the US and then work your way down every single senior executive for corporate America.

 

As for collar use I understand everyone has their own prefs. I've always used a choker, over 40 years. However my trainer has other ideas and you all have opinions of you own. That's why I asked the Q. To find out what you prefer and would it do well for me to change collar types. I know the arguments for and against chokers. My argument against is most people (90%) don't know how to properly use a choker. However I do and that includes on puppies.

 

As for the silent or no collars rule, don't know what else to call it. All of my dogs are chipped. Yet a chips don't do any good to dogs lost in open country so they all wear GPS tracking collars when we go out. I've never had a dog fail recall however if I do I can find them.

[juliepoudrier]

I think it's awful easy to generalize what *all* people should or should not do with their dogs. You say that a choke chain used properly is a perfectly good tool, and I agree. You then say that folks who would use other tools (which can also be good things when used properly) are in effect morons. That doesn't sit well with me. Generalizations don't sit well with me, although we all make them. People who misuse tools are certainly a problem, but just because someone uses a tool--like a choke chain, as you point out--doesn't make them evil or stupid.

 

I don't quite see how prong collars or muzzles rate as any more barbaric than a choke chain in the wrong hands. But maybe I'm the one who's completely dense here. I'm just not getting the argument. You asked for opinions and you got them. No one told you that you were an idiot for using a choke chain; they gave you their preferences and reasons. You have given your preference and reasons. Isn't that good enough without making value judgments about others, without at least first taking the time to listen to their potentially reasonable and valid reasons?

 

Oh, and for the record, I think folks who resort to prong collars aren't the ones doing the dragging....

 

J.

[1sheepdoggal]

Personally, I will revert to a prong when needed before Id ever put a choke chain on a dog. And I do know how to properly use both. A choke chain takes more and harder corrections to use than a prong, and with a choke chain you run the risk of injuring the dog quite a bit more and needlessly than with a prong. Training with a prong is more effective and much quicker and IMO safer in the right hands than a choke chain anyday.

[Shetlander]

Generalizations don't sit well with me, although we all make them. People who misuse tools are certainly a problem, but just because someone uses a tool--like a choke chain, as you point out--doesn't make them evil or stupid.

 

Ditto. There are many ways to successfully and humanely train dogs. I've seen prong collars make all the difference for people with strong pulling dogs, especially when those people were limited in their ability to train. There are a number of "experts" who would never put a choke on their dog. They go on at great lengths about the evils of choke chains and say prongs are much more humane, despite their appearance. Of course prong collars can be misused, just as choke collars or virtually any tool can be misused.

 

Anyway, back to the original question.... For puppies that young, I use only a regular collar. When they are 6 months, I may use a choke but I do not do harsh corrections and in fact will use collar pops as a motivator for dogs. At an instructors urging, I bought a prong collar with rubber tips for Quinn. I forget why she felt this would be better for him. Again, I used a very light hand and any pops were motivational for heeling and attention. I need to be careful when using pops with Quinn because he gets very drivey and wound up wanting to play. I also like to do a lot of training without a leash -- especially at 9 weeks -- which makes the collar irrelevant. I know that isn't always possible in class, though.

[Jack & Co.]

When I use a prong (not sure about the term "prong horn collar") I give a quick tug and release. There's no "dragging" him around in it. It's a useful tool for me to have on the occasion that I need it.

 

Not sure why you felt the need to add that President Bush and the CEOs of American corporations should wear a prong collar. A discussion of types of collars can stand on its own.

[ziggzmom]

. A prong horn chain (mastif size) on a puppy? It's a joke hun. I'd never use one of those on a dog. Anyone who does shouldn't own a dog anyway.

 

I'm not sure what a 'prong horn chain' is, but I have used a prong collar on some of my dogs, and may again in the future.....I didn't know it made me unfit to own a dog?!!!

 

Janet

[desertranger]

I'm not sure what a 'prong horn chain' is, but I have used a prong collar on some of my dogs, and may again in the future.....I didn't know it made me unfit to own a dog?!!!

 

Janet

 

 

No offense intended, but why do you have it? To me it is an inhumane collar good only for photos and comedy. Better to use a piece of rope.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

I adopted out a dog who was walking perfectly well on a leash. His new owner, a man, also demonstrated that he had the dog's respect enough that he walked perfectly well with him, on and off the leash. However, one piece of the picture I'd failed to realize was that the wife would be doing the neighborhood walking of the dog, daily - the dog was also going to parks every day with the husband and I hadn't realized the expectation was that she would be taking the dog out, too, or I would have made sure she was on board with him too (pushy Aussie mix, ).

 

Anyway, I got a call a week after he was adopted, that the wife was very unhappy with the dog, because he was dragging her off her feet and she just couldn't handle him. I talked to the wife and realized she had no intention of going to classes or changing anything about herself for the sake of the dog. She liked him, the dog just wasn't "her deal." But this one thing had to happen in their minds, or the dog wasn't going to work out. And truly, she did need to get his respect, and feel like he was controllable.

 

Without hesitation, I suggested they go immediately to PetSmart and fit him with a prong collar. I explained what it was for ("power steering" - they were classic car buffs so she enjoyed that reference immensely). I explained carefully, how to use it - it was like torque - ideally less pressure was more - if it wasn't working they needed to change the angle, not pull harder.

 

The next day I got a call from a now deliriously happy wife. Not only did it help with the walks, but he was now listening to her at other times too. It just gave her the confidence to assert herself where I think she was a bit hesitant. She stopped having to use it after about two weeks.

 

The year before that dog was on his way to being euthanized for the exact thing that I could see was escalating in this situation. What I had done in the meantime was give the dog the tools he needed to be a team player rather than just follow his impulses. But she wasn't doing her bit, until she felt engaged. It had very little to do with the prong collar, really.

 

That's the only time I've ever suggested this, and the closest I've come in 10 years, to even using a prong myself. The guy was continuing the dog's clicker training (parlor tricks and super advanced stuff). Certainly they could have worked through the situation with less aversive techniques - that's how he learned to behave himself on a leash in the first place. But what I needed to change was the wife's feelings about the situation, and I knew the dog could take the pressure and frankly even benefit from it.

 

The only absolute I've ever noticed about dog training is that there are no absolutes, short of evil being truly evil (ie, there's never an excuse for purposeful bodily harm).

[Shetlander]

No offense intended, but why do you have it? To me it is an inhumane collar good only for photos and comedy. Better to use a piece of rope.

 

Now why would she take offense?

[Jumpin Boots]

I have to agree, in my experience, a choke chain can do a lot more damage in an unskilled hand that a prong collar can. Not that a prong collar couldn't, but in my experience the behavior doesn't escalate to the point where the dog is going to continue pulling and the handler doesn't typically need to give a stronger correction.

 

And I'm sorry, but if you have been using choke chains for 40 years, and know how to use them properly then why are you even worried about what other people think or have to say?!? Kind of feels like you are trying to stir the pot.

[Maralynn]

No offense intended, but why do you have it? To me it is an inhumane collar good only for photos and comedy. Better to use a piece of rope.

 

I'm guessing that you've never seen a prong collar used properly, or felt one. Yes they look rather evil. But trust me, they don't feel anywhere near as evil as they look. Sure they can be missused, but so can a choke collar or even a clicker for that matter. And there are many, many folks who use them properly and both they and their dogs benefit.

 

 

What I mean is anyone who uses a prong horn collar should have it placed on themselves and then be dragged around by it.

 

Sheesh, who said anything about dragging a dog around??? You asked for opinions on collars, we gave them. Now you're classifying some people as inhumane dog draggers?

[juliepoudrier]

I think "stirring the pot" is an apt description here.

 

J.

[njnovice]

I'm not particularly anti-choke collar, but what 9 week old puppy needs one?

 

Both of my dogs do quite fine with leather field collars. Mick will wear a head harness on walks around the neighborhood, but that's just because otherwise the cars drive him crazy.

[ziggzmom]

No offense intended, but why do you have it? To me it is an inhumane collar good only for photos and comedy. Better to use a piece of rope.

 

My main use for a prong collar is for fine tuning competition heeling. It's like power steering....I use it gently and subtly, nothing forceful. If you don't feel comfortable with a piece of equipment or a method then of course don't use it. No one thing is right for every dog or person. And I will be anxiously waiting for your advise on teaching competition heeling with a piece of rope!

 

Thanks in advance~

 

Janet

[Ooky]

We panicked before Odin's surgery, knowing that he had just recently become bad at pulling/jumping like a fish at the end of the line, and that we had to keep him calm and very in control during our post-surgery conditioning walks. So I tried a nylon slip lead. Well, my puppy apparently has very few pain receptors because even a rather sharp pop just seemed to get him excited. Not a choke-chain, but similar, and he seemed like he might suffocate himself some days. I was contemplating a prong because the predominant dogs in my neighborhood are pit bulls and Akitas, and most of them wear prongs on walks (and I've rarely seen any owner even pop them, let alone drag the dogs). However, I went instead for the front clip harness and C/T heelwork training which worked much, much better for us. Well, he also started growing out of his teenage period which helped as well. Now we are back to a simple flat collar and rely on our training and commands rather than any special physical control.

 

However, I will say that none of the dogs in my neighborhood that regularly wear prongs seem to be subjected to undue cruelty. I *don't* see them pulling like maniacs, choking and suffocating themselves at the end of the leash like I sometimes see with simple chokes or the nylon slip lead we tried with my pup. I am certain that used correctly, they are a good tool for certain dog/owner combos.

[FlyByNight]

In my situation, a prong collar worked for me where a choke chain failed. And I know very well how to use both.

 

My late German Shepherd was fairly dog reactive and after building a foundation in focus work and self control with only a flat collar, we were finally able to start taking pleasant walks around the block. In my neighborhood, electric fences are quite popular and many of them go RIGHT up to the line of the sidewalk; in these cases the resident dogs would usually run up and down their perimeters barking their fool heads off and posturing at us as we walked by.

 

For the most part, my dog was able to tune himself in with me well enough that when I would begin to see the small signs that he was going to react, a verbal reminder was all he needed. But there were those times when he needed a physical reminder as well.

 

At those points, a choke chain did not make enough of a physical impression on him for him to come back to me and stay calm, unless I cranked out a hard pop. Which was not what I wanted to have to do.

 

A prong collar, on the other hand, enabled me to give a light jiggle of the lead - not even a tug, just a fluttering of the leash really - and that was all that was needed to remind my dog to stay calm. The prong collar most definitely delivers a much stronger sensory experience to a dog with very little movement on the handler's part than a choke chain, which is exactly what I needed in my case. I needed there to be enough feeling to get my dog's attention w/o hurting him.

 

There is a time and a place for almost everything.