Where to run

[Donald McCaig]

Dear Doggers,

Ms. Cindy wrote:

 

"This handler has put multiple arena & kennel club championships on multiple dogs. Maybe the dog was underestimated on Saturday but why not rectify the situation on Sunday & move up? Also rumor has it there was *Payback* in PN-LOL!

 

As someone said, there are no real rules, anyone can run in Novice."

 

Depends on local association rules. In Virginia, nobody who takes money to train others' dogs can run in N/N. Dunno about elsewhere.

 

As others have noted: the sheepdog trial is an open sheepdog trial. The other classes are intended as training classes and are somewhat easier versions of the real thing. Multiple kennel club championships? La.

 

If someone really, really wants to remain in kindergarten for Christ's sake let 'em stay there. They can have all the blue blocks and the little red ones too.

 

Donald McCaig

[Debbie Meier]

And yet I don't think it's ever been enforced to my knowledge, and I don't even know how anyone would know for sure that someone was giving lessons or taking dogs in for training, especially if the person is doing so in other venues (AKC, AHBA, ASCA).

 

 

Ohh...I always wonder is any club deemed professionals as Open handlers. Yeah I know, it just says that they can't run N/N but I guess I look at it as two levels of handlers with three classes Novice handlers and Open handlers, if you can't run a dog in N/N you are by default an Open handler.

 

As far as enforcing it, with the other associations that I've participated it, (not dogs) a clause was on your membership form, you would acknowledge your designation (ie: Novice or Open) and then sign a statement saying the you had not recieved any money for training, lessons or judging. It was followed by a statement that gave the assoc. the right to expel any member that lied.

 

Deb

[Shoofly]

I knew the VA club had that in the rulebook. A few years ago, in the program for a trial i was organizing, i put a description of the classes and noted that anyone taking money for giving lessons or taking in dogs for training (and therefore a "professional" in my opinion) ought to be running above the Novice novice class. I still believe that - if you hang out a shingle and take people's money, you are the "pro" part of the team, even if your dog is a novice, and you belong in Pro-novice. Even if by virtue of actual abilities and accomplishments you really *ought* to be still running NN! You take money, you give up novice status.

[juliepoudrier]

^^Oh, I agree. I guess I just haven't seen that it's a real big issue at most trials. Maybe it will become a bigger issue as more cross-overs from the AKC world trial in the lower levels at USBCHA trials, but I think it's more likely that folks would cheat by taking an open level dog (and not being honest about that) and running it in P/N when they are themselves either open level handlers or give lessons/training to outside people.

 

J.

[Debbie Meier]

^^Oh, I agree. I guess I just haven't seen that it's a real big issue at most trials. Maybe it will become a bigger issue as more cross-overs from the AKC world trial in the lower levels at USBCHA trials, but I think it's more likely that folks would cheat by taking an open level dog (and not being honest about that) and running it in P/N when they are themselves either open level handlers or give lessons/training to outside people.

 

J.

 

It wouldn't be cheating if the club had the clause that allows a handler to move a dog one class below where it was run by the previous owner. We have that in ours and I've seen it in other clubs/assoc. rules also.

 

Deb

[Shoofly]

I can only think of a couple of cases where it was a problem. I put that in the program because i saw it happening, someone taking money from unsuspecting fools and then still going out and running NN, and it bugged me. I figured a little public notice was in order.

 

I actually don't mind novice handlers taking Open dogs back to ProNovice. I kind of think that's where they should start. The dog is the Pro, handler is the Novice.

[juliepoudrier]

It wouldn't be cheating if the club had the clause that allows a handler to move a dog one class below where it was run by the previous owner. We have that in ours and I've seen it in other clubs/assoc. rules also.

 

Deb

One class below here in the east is ranch.

 

J.

[juliepoudrier]

I can only think of a couple of cases where it was a problem. I put that in the program because i saw it happening, someone taking money from unsuspecting fools and then still going out and running NN, and it bugged me. I figured a little public notice was in order.

 

Yep, and that's sort of my point. You *knew* it was happening, but I wonder how many folks could get away with it if no one happened to know what they're doing on the side? Probably not a big deal anyway. I kind of feel like if they're that desperate for a blue ribbon, then it just reflects on them....

 

I actually don't mind novice handlers taking Open dogs back to ProNovice. I kind of think that's where they should start. The dog is the Pro, handler is the Novice.

 

I agree. I was more specifically referring to imported dogs in the hands of open handlers who claimed the dogs weren't open dogs overseas when in fact they were.

 

J.

[Debbie Meier]

One class below here in the east is ranch.

 

J.

 

Ahh, difference in area/region. We don't have ranch.

 

 

Deb

[juliepoudrier]

Yep, east and west are kind of opposites. We have N/N, P/N (shorter outrun, one-leg drive), open ranch (full open course, sometimes slightly shorter outrun, no shed) and open. Out west the P/N and ranch courses are reversed, with exceptions for places like Texas, I think.

 

J.

[NorthfieldNick]

Oh, great. People I know are going to be there... nevermind cheering section. You're all going to make fun of me for hollering at my dog because I can't whistle! AHHHH!

[airbear]

We're going to be laughing with you, Ben! Not at you, with you!

[Laurae]

Yep, east and west are kind of opposites. We have N/N, P/N (shorter outrun, one-leg drive), open ranch (full open course, sometimes slightly shorter outrun, no shed) and open. Out west the P/N and ranch courses are reversed, with exceptions for places like Texas, I think.

 

J.

 

In my area, open ranch is usually slightly more difficult than p/n, but not many trials (actually, I can't think of any) hold both classes, so the classes at a given trial will be n/n, either p/n or open ranch, and open. Whether to call a class p/n or open ranch seems largely arbitrary to me. The p/n or open ranch class always nearly always includes a cross drive. The cross drive might be a bit shorter than in the open class but is otherwise generally the same as the open ranch class you describe, Julie. In New Mexico, which is close enough for people in my area to go to trial, there is a ranch class (not open ranch, just ranch) that is a step above n/n but well below open ranch or p/n, as it involves a full course minus the shed, but in a teeny area (outruns of about 100 to 150 yards).

 

I really wish there was a place to see exactly what one can generally expect in the different classes throughout the different regions!

[Liz P]

Oh, great. People I know are going to be there... nevermind cheering section. You're all going to make fun of me for hollering at my dog because I can't whistle! AHHHH!

 

It's ok. At my first trial I was so nervous that I reversed my commands. The judge complimented me on my dog and mentioned not seeing one trained for brace in a very long time. I was too embarrassed to correct her. At my second trial I screamed at my dog and waved my stick around a lot because she wouldn't take her lie down command. On the upside, since she did the course so fast, we were one of a very few teams to get the pen. My whistling is still horrendous. It's all fun though, once the humiliation is over.

[DeltaBluez Tess]

Tess ran a Novice course (outrun, lift, fetch and PEN) in 59 seconds!! The Judge said he never saw a coures run so fast. We got first and it was so funny. The crowd was laughing as it was really funny, Tess pushing the sheep over me, the sheep saying "Open the damm gate" and then me closing trhe gate and falling on the ground in terror. Tess was so proud of herself.

 

As for whistings, sometimes I still have problems still!!

 

Diane

[Tea]

I have a slighlty squashed mouse if anyone needs it......

[Debbie Meier]

I really wish there was a place to see exactly what one can generally expect in the different classes throughout the different regions!

 

It can be different from one trial to another within the same region.

 

 

Deb

[Sue R]

It can be different from one trial to another within the same region.

Deb

You can say that again! The difference between a class at a location like Edgeworth or Bluegrass can involve not only terrain but type of sheep, when compared to other, perhaps much smaller, venues. The terrain can be vastly different, and so can the sheep - from lesson sheep to range sheep, and all sorts in between.

 

The variety is one of the joys of going to different trials while some admittedly offer much more challenges than others.

[Laurae]

It can be different from one trial to another within the same region.

Deb

 

 

Well, I realize that, but when talking about trials to people in other parts of the country, I get tired of always having to ascertain what the basic course levels are in their areas.

[Sue R]

Well, I realize that, but when talking about trials to people in other parts of the country, I get tired of always having to ascertain what the basic course levels are in their areas.

Oh, right - understand you now. I generally assume that, if it's out West, it's tough! Of course, this is coming from someone who does not trial anyway...

[Journey]

Knowing the issue may arise again this weekend. It may be nice if it was brought up "before" the NN and PN classes began and let the trial host decide. Then everyone will be on the same page.

[Amelia]

Hello all,

 

It has been stated correctly that the HA does not sanction novice,novice, or anything other than open and nursery. Local associations may or may not have their own rules regarding who can and can't run in the other divisions, and frankly I don't care. P/N, Ranch, NN and all the rest are nothing more than learning opportunities, not proving opportunities, so who wins or loses, and competes or not, doesn't matter to me in the least.

 

The fact that someone is calling themselves a professional trainer while choosing to compete against novice handlers is the first clue that something is really amiss here. All questions relating to whether or not they should have run NN don't matter after the fact. It's likely this so-called pro is entering right where they belong, and the misguided owner is surely overpaying.

 

There's no shame in running a dog in novice to learn. But, you either need to learn, or you know and can teach. You can't have it both ways.

 

Cheers all.

[Pearse]

I look on most Novice Novice courses as a way for rookie HANDLERS to get a taste for going to the post. Most Novice Novice courses have outruns of 100 yards or less. Many have no drive/wear. It's outrun, lift, fetch, pen. Most are run on well-dogged sheep. The sheep can see the dog leave the post, and unless they are held by the setout crew will often head towards the handler without any help from the dog.

 

In my opinion (for what that is worth), the dogs don't benefit from running Novice/Novice courses. If anything it messes them up more than it helps them (for example, a dog on an outrun seeing sheep running down the course will frequently either pull up short, or come in tight. Neither is what you want to train.). For a dog with any real talent, most handlers would be better off spending their entry fees on lessons and sheep time until they can put a drive on their dog and enter ProNovice/Open Ranch.

 

The exception is a new handler who has never trialled before. I think Novice/Novice can be a good venue for the handler to get over the jitters for a couple of times going to the post before moving up.

 

Sometimes it's a big jump from Novice to ProNovice/Open Ranch. I'd like to see more trials "upgrade" their Novice courses to be a bit more like a real course; outruns of 150 yards min and a short drive/assisted drive/wear. The folks up here in BC do that for their sanctioned trials and, from what I've seen, it has positive effects. People wait a little longer before entering their first trial, and the dogs get a fair chance to actually get hold of their sheep before the run is over.

[juliepoudrier]

^^I agree.

 

J.

[MyTDogs]

Well,

 

The trial in question had some nice sheep (not dogged at all) & was held on a open field. There was a OLF & a wear/drive out to a panel & a cross drive/wear thru another panel & then down to the pen. It was a good representation of the Pro Novice course run on the same field but with a larger outrun & a mandatory drive.

 

Thanks to everyone for your comments on this thread. I am still a newbie to all this but I just felt like what was happening wasn't right & I was shocked that others around me felt differently. It is good to get some back up on my position

 

Cindy

 

 

I look on most Novice Novice courses as a way for rookie HANDLERS to get a taste for going to the post. Most Novice Novice courses have outruns of 100 yards or less. Many have no drive/wear. It's outrun, lift, fetch, pen. Most are run on well-dogged sheep. The sheep can see the dog leave the post, and unless they are held by the setout crew will often head towards the handler without any help from the dog.