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too much dog


Guest Kiwi
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My dog is very intense and hard headed. I am a complete novice. After trying for 2 years to work sheep with this dog, we are still at odds. Many lessons and clinics later I might add. For the sanity of both of us I have decided to stop pursuing the training of this dog at least for awhile. I plan to get a pup next year and start over with a softer dog and the things I now know that would have helped before this dog started blowing me off all the time. My trainer admits my dog is just not easy and even for a good handler is a struggle to control.

 

My question is, how do I keep her mentally happy living with me and my small flock of sheep if we don't dare work them? What I'm doing now is taking her to the barn with me, giving her a few commands while we are on the other side of the fence from them, then calling her off before she gets close to the sheep. While I feed I tie her or crate her where she can watch them. Will this feel enough like work to her? She seems happy so far but she WANTS to work, and I just can't get enough control to work her without the sheep getting hurt, or just plain wild because she can't help but blast them when she gets in close. Even when the sheep are in the pen, she locks on to them and it's hard to get her to come, she comes in slow motion, eyes on the sheep, walking sideways on her tiptoes.

 

My other question is, once I train an easier dog, do you think I will be able to work this one? Can her bad habits be broken after 3 years of age?

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Guest aurdank

I sympathize with your dilemma, as my first dog was just this sort, though after much turmoil I eventually got him to work for me. The hard-headedness really came from the fact that in the beginning he realized that I would allow him to take small liberties one would normally accord a pet but which he, a working dog, interpreted as weakness on my part. So he became alpha, at least for a time. If you truly want to work this dog (watching you feed the stock won't be enough stimulation for her; in fact it will frustrate her more), you might consider having her live in a kennel, not the house, for starters (I'm assuming that you treat her as a member of the household, since you seem prepared to keep her while not actually working her). Let her live as a worker, not as a pet. And whatever rules you've established for proper behavior, even away from stock, must be fully and consistently enforced, e.g. not letting her jump up onto a person as a way of giving greeting. Inconsistency in small things tells her that she can get away with bad behvior in more important matters. On stock, I'd work her only in a small round pen, with a long line attached to her collar; and I'd use a buggy whip instead of a crook. You might consult with your trainer about the best way to set this up. In a small round pen, you can always keep ahead of her; the long line will give you added insurance; and the crack of the whip usually makes such a dog respond better than the waving of a crook. I would work her in circles and small figure eights, forcing her to balance to you in such a confined area. This will teach her that you are the focus of her work, that she's not simply out to work for herself. If she's about to grip, you must crack the whip and/or say AGGGH before she actually does so, when she's only thinking about doing it; so timing will be important, and you will have to read her expressions carefully. You can also work on stop commands, both stand and lie down, forcing her to take these especially when she seems about to get away from you. If she does manage to go in and grip, grab the long line, pull her off the stock and discipline her firmly. Working in a round pen will tire her, and eventually within a given training sesssion, she'll become more biddable. Once you've established your authority in the roundpen, and have a good solid stop command on her, you might wish to graduate to a larger pasture and to begin real work on heavy, dog-broken sheep. Roundpen work is really for starting a dog and will have little interest for both you and the dog after its initial purpose is achieved. I wouldn't wait to hone my skills first on a more biddable pup, because you'll lose valuable time and the dog's habits and attitudes will become more entrenched with age. If you had to do that, it would be preferable to find her a new home now, where she'll have the chance to have a productive working life.

Best wishes,

 

Albion Urdank

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Thanks for your advice Albion. I have already taken many of the steps you recommend. My dog lives in a kennel outside except at night because she barks at everything in the night. She is not permitted to show bad manners, I try very hard to catch every little thing. She does not go throught the gate first, she always comes to me and touches me when I call, she leaves the cat when in the house. Around everything except sheep I have good control. I built the roundpen early this year, what happended is that she got the sheep so frightened that they would go around like in a centrifuge and almost run me over on the round trip, and there was no way to get them off the fence. The dog would not give to my pressure with a buggy whip and go behind them, prefering to hold them on the fence. My trainer and I decided that she needs space, and started working her way off the sheep, like 100 yards. She will work out there, but if she gets any closer I cannot stop her from blasting into them. (My trainer can) She is afraid of sheep, she is visibly nervous with them and seems to resort to blasting into them to assert herself. This leaves the sheep rattled and flighty. I bought 4 heavy woolly sheep, they have turned out to be less than heavy and I have not been able to work them yet with my dog. My barbs are way too light and run for the barn when they spot us coming 2 pastures away. What I have tried to do with her to make her feel like she is working is send her on an outrun way back, and then try to stop her before she gets to the point of no return where if they move at all she will blast them. I cannot get a good stop on this dog, she just goes into some state of zen and I cannot reach her if I let her get in close. No amount of correction has helped me get to her. This is why I have had to take a break from training before we both kill each other or the sheep.

 

I don't think this dog would be happy in a working home, she is too timid with stock, and she is not good trial material because of her need to blast them. (she also has some soundness issues) I don't want to re-home her because as a pet she is very sweet and nice to have around so I am hoping to one day get through to her enough to work my own sheep and find another dog to trial. This was my first BC and I had no idea how tough this was going to be but I really want to pursue trialing and have the acreage and sheep to do it.

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Guest aurdank

I see better now. The problem isn't really hard-headedness, but fear-biting and fear of the sheep generally, and perhaps also an inability to take the pressure of corrections. I think that you may need first to get her to feel comfortable in close proximity to the stock, and then to teach her to grip apprpriately, on command, and not out of fear. Then you can work on getting her to stop, to take the pressure needed to enforce this command. Once she feels better about being closer to the stock, you can try the round pen again, but on very, very dog-broken sheep (not just heavy ones), whose inclination when they feel the pressure of the dog would be to turn toward the handler for protection; you might even try "knee-knockers", the most extreme version of this type, who never leave the knees of the handler in the first place. Then you shouldn't have too much trouble getting her to balance to you in the round pen.

 

You can start by using the "packed-pen" method to get her comfortable with stock. Essentially fill a pen up with sheep so that there is no room really for them to move, and bring her into it (on leash), naturally holding her very close to you. Stay with her for a decent interval, soothing her all the while until she gets calm and stays calm. Probably it would be a good idea to wear solid work gloves, just in case. You can repeat this exercise until you judge that she's improving, getting comfortable in such close quarters. Then you can move on to the "bite-chute" approach to teaching the proper grip. This chute you can construct as a long very narrow chute, at the end of which you place three or four sheep. They're packed in at the end and can only move forward, not even side to side. You bring the dog in on leash and walk carefully up to the sheep. Go down in front of them on bended knee, holding the dog closely on leash, but turning slightly to the dog so that you can read her expression. There will be more pressure on her here than in the packed-pen, because she will be looking into the faces of the sheep directly. If she's about to bite out of fear, give a slight tug on the leash BEFORE SHE GRIPS, and say "AGGH", or a light tap with your index finger on her nose while saying "Noooo". Now if the sheep lower their heads as if to butt, this becomes the signal for the dog to grip, because you want to teach the dog to grip only when challenged, out of self-defense. When one or more does this, firmly tap the lead ewe doing it on the nose or face and say "Hit 'em" or just "hit" or "take hold". Good timing is very important. Firmly tapping the sheep on the nose tells the dog where to grip and provides her with action to imitate. When she does this, praise her. If she should instead grip on the body, or the feet, avoiding the face of the ewe, say "no, here" and tap the nose again. Use a firm voice for corrections, but never shout. This isn't an easy exercise. Some dogs get it faster than others, and it usually bears a bit of repitition. Nor do the sheep want to stay still, but if they're dog broken and have no room to run (since your body and the dog will be blocking their path in a confined area), you should be able to keep them relatively still. And again wear solid work gloves. Eventually, as the dog gets the idea, you can walk toward the sheep with the dog off-leash and have her perform this exercise retraining her only with verbal commands. When she can do it this way, then you've taught her to grip only on command.

 

Once the dog is comfortable with this sort of pressure, you can teach the stop command. I would teach a stand rather than a lie-down. A softer dog, inclined to be fearful of the stock, finds itself in a more vulernable position when it is required to lie-down in front of them. The lie-down may take the pressure off the stock in a way that may seem desireable, but in my view it tends to weaken the dog. If the dog stands, remains on its feet, it retains confidence and is always ready to move quickly into the next phase of work; the stock may feel a bit more pressure than with a lie-down, but they are not in fact at any greater risk. I would stand with dog-broken sheep around me in a round-pen and make the dog circle us both. I would say "stand" when I'd want it to stop, and if it refuses I would walk firmly toward the dog while repeating the command and blocking the dog from getting to the sheep. The dog will feel my approach as a threat and will back away; at some point it will actually stand and when it does, I would instantly and quietly back off. This is sometimes called "negative reinforcement" because the dog learns that to get me to release my pressure, all she has to do is stand. You might introduced the command to her away from stock on leash, so as to familiarize her with it; but even if she figures out its meaning in that context, she will have to learn it again around the sheep. In the round-pen with the appropriate sheep (as per above), you can also resume balance exercises, and while you're doing these, you can also reinforce the stand periodically (instead of saying "there", for instance, you might want to say "stand"). The key to working in a round-pen is that you, the handler, must be moving fairly continuously rather than remaining stationary. That comes later. Handler movement is how the dog learns to work for the handler, and it allows the handler to intervene quickly in any given situation that may arise. If you remain even relatively stationary in a round pen, the dog will get ahead of you and the training will suffer. I would move into a larger pasture only once I was fairly certain of my control of the dog, and if I badly misjudged that, I'd return to the round-pen for reinforcement. Of course, at some point you'll have to tough it out in a larger pasture, but at least you'll have done the necessary spade work before trying.

 

Hope this has been of some help. But if you think it is all too much, then perhaps making her a pet might be the way to go, in which case you might want to try agility or fly-ball instead of herding (it would serve no useful purpose, given her fearfulness, to show her sheep, even if she has the instinct to work). The key thing is that a BC needs a job to focus on, whatever it might be.

 

Albion

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Thanks Albion, I'll give some of that a try. She is a lovely dog and I wouldn't want to part with her but just want her to live a happy life. She does not grip the sheep, but simply blasts through them sending them scattering. I think it is a bit of an adrenaline rush as well as a way to feel tough (like a bully) even though she's afraid. I will certainly find her a job even if it's chasing birds from my crops. Thanks for your advice.

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Guest aurdank

Interesting. "Blasting through" is usually accompanied by random gripping, but even if your dog doesn't grip when she does this, the cause is still the same, as you've identified it: fear of the sheep, of the pressure proximity to them generates. The calming exercises should help, and there's nothing like teaching a dog to grip properly for building its confidence; so I would try that too at some stage. Good luck. I hope it all works out well.

 

Albion

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