Jackus McCrackus Posted September 22, 2014 Report Share Posted September 22, 2014 Should we neuter jack? Taking Jacks growth and development into consideration we want the best for our dog i have read about testosterone related aggression when dogs reach maturity and being especially concerned with having children. Jack is a headstrong pup and will often put up a fight to get his own way "being stubborn" especially when it comes down to accepting boundaries for jack at the momment it's keeping off the couch and jumping up as well as mouthing i feel this may get worse with gains in testosterone and confidance. He has recently started to hump cushions i thought this was a little early for him at only 5 months. It was recommended by a vet to get him done before 6 months i can't help but feel it's cruel. I have read about health benefits related to nuetering for intance reduction of some cancer risks but i guess he could end up with a number of other illnesses even with being neutered. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laurabehjet Posted September 22, 2014 Report Share Posted September 22, 2014 I wouldn't worry about testosterone related aggression after neutering, neutering (in the uk anyway) is thought to be detrimental for a young, nervous dog as the testosterone gives them confidence. As neutering reduces testosterone, it can make an already nervous male even more nervous, increasing the likelihood of things like fear aggression. But your male doesn't sound particularly nervous? You say he is headstrong and puts up a fight to get his own way, I think that sounds like he doesn't respect you very much personally and needs a reminder of just who is in charge, perhaps he is testing boundaries now he is beginning adolescence, he can't get away with it though imo. You need to be able to do things the dog doesn't necessarily like like removing items he shouldn't have, checking his feet etc without any fear of him getting nasty, ESPECIALLY if you have children about, in case in the future he is in a dangerous situation or injured. Iif you discover he is eating a bar of chocolate for example, you need to be able to remove it swiftly without being bitten or he could be poisoned. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted September 22, 2014 Report Share Posted September 22, 2014 Re: Neutering: Most people would prefer to wait to neuter until the dog is fully grown and his growth plates have closed, anywhere from 12-18 months. Caveat: If you or your family are not able to keep him home and prevent him wandering and breeding females, then neutering sooner rather than later might be a worthwhile option. Re: Humping, etc.: Young dogs do that. Young dogs also test boundaries. You need to give us more details on the "putting up a fight to get his way" comment. It's hard enough to offer advice over the Internet, but when you give so little detail, anything anyone says could well be off base. A six-month-old shouldn't even think that "getting his way" is an option. J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D'Elle Posted September 22, 2014 Report Share Posted September 22, 2014 What do you mean when you say "put up a fight to get his way"? More information is needed in order for us to give advice. Neutering is not cruel. Neutering doesn't have any negative health consequences, and all dogs should be spayed or neutered unless being used in a breeding program by someone who is an expert. Seriously: You might want to try using punctuation in your posts. It is very hard to read what you are writing without any punctuation! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maralynn Posted September 22, 2014 Report Share Posted September 22, 2014 Neutering doesn't have any negative health consequences, and all dogs should be spayed or neutered unless being used in a breeding program by someone who is an expert. I totally agree with the rest of your post, but wondered if you were aware of recent studies that showed an increase in CCL tears, hip dysplasia certain cancers in the neutered dogs of the breeds studied? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oko Posted September 22, 2014 Report Share Posted September 22, 2014 What do you mean when you say "put up a fight to get his way"? More information is needed in order for us to give advice. Neutering is not cruel. Neutering doesn't have any negative health consequences, and all dogs should be spayed or neutered unless being used in a breeding program by someone who is an expert. Seriously: You might want to try using punctuation in your posts. It is very hard to read what you are writing without any punctuation! There are actually studies coming out pointing to neutering and spaying causing a lot of health problems, I totally disagree that only breeding dogs should be left intact. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jackus McCrackus Posted September 22, 2014 Author Report Share Posted September 22, 2014 I wouldn't worry about testosterone related aggression after neutering, neutering (in the uk anyway) is thought to be detrimental for a young, nervous dog as the testosterone gives them confidence. As neutering reduces testosterone, it can make an already nervous male even more nervous, increasing the likelihood of things like fear aggression. But your male doesn't sound particularly nervous? You say he is headstrong and puts up a fight to get his own way, I think that sounds like he doesn't respect you very much personally and needs a reminder of just who is in charge, perhaps he is testing boundaries now he is beginning adolescence, he can't get away with it though imo. You need to be able to do things the dog doesn't necessarily like like removing items he shouldn't have, checking his feet etc without any fear of him getting nasty, ESPECIALLY if you have children about, in case in the future he is in a dangerous situation or injured. Iif you discover he is eating a bar of chocolate for example, you need to be able to remove it swiftly without being bitten or he could be poisoned. Re: Neutering: Most people would prefer to wait to neuter until the dog is fully grown and his growth plates have closed, anywhere from 12-18 months. Caveat: If you or your family are not able to keep him home and prevent him wandering and breeding females, then neutering sooner rather than later might be a worthwhile option. Re: Humping, etc.: Young dogs do that. Young dogs also test boundaries. You need to give us more details on the "putting up a fight to get his way" comment. It's hard enough to offer advice over the Internet, but when you give so little detail, anything anyone says could well be off base. A six-month-old shouldn't even think that "getting his way" is an option. J. What do you mean when you say "put up a fight to get his way"? More information is needed in order for us to give advice. Neutering is not cruel. Neutering doesn't have any negative health consequences, and all dogs should be spayed or neutered unless being used in a breeding program by someone who is an expert. Seriously: You might want to try using punctuation in your posts. It is very hard to read what you are writing without any punctuation! I totally agree with the rest of your post, but wondered if you were aware of recent studies that showed an increase in CCL tears, hip dysplasia certain cancers in the neutered dogs of the breeds studied? There are actually studies coming out pointing to neutering and spaying causing a lot of health problems, I totally disagree that only breeding dogs should be left intact. Thank you all for your feedback I apologise for my lack of punctuation D'Elle !!! and my lack of details i had to rush off to work and was in bit of a hurry. Now reading it back for my self it's not hard to see just how anyone was able to make heads or tails of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jackus McCrackus Posted September 22, 2014 Author Report Share Posted September 22, 2014 I wouldn't worry about testosterone related aggression after neutering, neutering (in the uk anyway) is thought to be detrimental for a young, nervous dog as the testosterone gives them confidence. As neutering reduces testosterone, it can make an already nervous male even more nervous, increasing the likelihood of things like fear aggression. But your male doesn't sound particularly nervous? You say he is headstrong and puts up a fight to get his own way, I think that sounds like he doesn't respect you very much personally and needs a reminder of just who is in charge, perhaps he is testing boundaries now he is beginning adolescence, he can't get away with it though imo. You need to be able to do things the dog doesn't necessarily like like removing items he shouldn't have, checking his feet etc without any fear of him getting nasty, ESPECIALLY if you have children about, in case in the future he is in a dangerous situation or injured. Iif you discover he is eating a bar of chocolate for example, you need to be able to remove it swiftly without being bitten or he could be poisoned. No, i wouldn't say he's a nervous dog but he does appear to be a little apprehensive around other dogs. He's not displaying signs of aggression when i say puts up a fight i meant when he knows he's in the wrong but continues anyway it seems to become a bit of a game for him he has his moments and at other times he's as good as gold. I'am not to worried that much about this to honest as he is still young and i guess is to be expected to a certain degree I was concerning more on testosterone and wether or not if neutering may have advantages with regards to long term behaviours. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jackus McCrackus Posted September 22, 2014 Author Report Share Posted September 22, 2014 Re: Neutering: Most people would prefer to wait to neuter until the dog is fully grown and his growth plates have closed, anywhere from 12-18 months. Caveat: If you or your family are not able to keep him home and prevent him wandering and breeding females, then neutering sooner rather than later might be a worthwhile option. Re: Humping, etc.: Young dogs do that. Young dogs also test boundaries. You need to give us more details on the "putting up a fight to get his way" comment. It's hard enough to offer advice over the Internet, but when you give so little detail, anything anyone says could well be off base. A six-month-old shouldn't even think that "getting his way" is an option. J. Thanks for your advice and apologise again for the lack of detail and i appreciate your patients I was concerned with wandering as he has little to no road sence at the moment and i'am sure jack could escape if he really wanted to. "Putting up a fight" meaning to be stuborn knowing what he's doing is wrong and continueing it's not all the time but when he is playing up it is a challenge some times to keep control and is usually dealt with a time out but i guess thats a whole new topic I was trying to relate behaviour and testosterone if neutering could have advantages with un wanted behaviour or on the other hand if it could take away the spark with what makes Jack the already accepted companion he is. Jacks first day at his new home. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geonni banner Posted September 22, 2014 Report Share Posted September 22, 2014 Sorry - double post - having trouble with the quote function Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maralynn Posted September 22, 2014 Report Share Posted September 22, 2014 I think you are reading too much into his behavior. Six m/o puppies don't know when they're wrong. They're curious creatures that are gaining confidence, exploring their world and pushing the boundaries. Sometimes they seem to have forgotten everything they've learned. Sometimes they're just trying stuff to see what works. Hormones are starting to develop and those add a new dimension to the pup and will create new distractions - sometimes you'll feel like you're back at square one. Continued consistency is what they need and you'll both get through this. Neutering usually dampens some "male" behaviors but doesn't always eliminate them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geonni banner Posted September 22, 2014 Report Share Posted September 22, 2014 Neutering doesn't have any negative health consequences, and all dogs should be spayed or neutered unless being used in a breeding program by someone who is an expert. Sorry, I disagree with the idea that all dogs not intended for breeding should be neutered or spayed. Certainly a great responsibility comes with owning an intact animal. And some will feel a wish to breed the dog creeping in. But unless there is a really good reason, ("He's a great dog!" doesn't count) I agree with the idea of not breeding pet dogs. I have read studies that do suggest that there can be problems with de-sexed dogs of both sexes, then again, there can be problems with intact dogs as well, especially those neutered too early. One that comes to mind is a higher incidence of urinary incontinence in spayed females. To the OP, I'm not saying you intend to breed your dog, but you must think carefully about whether you are up to the task of making sure you know where he is every minute of every day, and whether or not you would be tempted to breed him if asked by the owners of females. He's a pretty boy, and you will get asked. Can you maintain a commitment to say no? Even to a friend with a sweet Border Collie bitch? If you can't unequivocally say yes to either question, you had better get him fixed. I look askance at getting a dog neutered to solve behavioral/ potential behavioral problems. In my experience it has a high fail rate. Train, train and train some more. Nothing you've mentioned couldn't be corrected by training with any dog - neutered or not. There are many people here who can steer you in the direction of good training books, videos and trainers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
highway61 Posted September 22, 2014 Report Share Posted September 22, 2014 Regarding humping; my male started around 5-6 months. I only witness it a handful of times (when I was on the ground playing with him). Haven't seen him do it since and he's 17 months now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jescano Posted September 22, 2014 Report Share Posted September 22, 2014 I know female dogs that hump worse than intact males... I've seen my intact male try and hump a couple other dogs. If the other dog just tolerates it I pull him off and he doesn't get to play anymore. If it's a dog that tells him off, I let him do it and he gets the message loud and clear, he doesn't try it with that dog again. I haven't seen him hump another dog in the past couple months. Though I've never seen him hump an inanimate object... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dsmbc Posted September 23, 2014 Report Share Posted September 23, 2014 Jack is very cute and he sounds like a pretty typical border collie pup. Don't worry about the humping. Five months doesn't seem that young. My oldest male started humping things at 10 wks! As far as neutering, I think folks gave you good advice and things to weigh in your decision. have fun with him! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laurabehjet Posted September 23, 2014 Report Share Posted September 23, 2014 No, i wouldn't say he's a nervous dog but he does appear to be a little apprehensive around other dogs. He's not displaying signs of aggression when i say puts up a fight i meant when he knows he's in the wrong but continues anyway it seems to become a bit of a game for him he has his moments and at other times he's as good as gold. I'am not to worried that much about this to honest as he is still young and i guess is to be expected to a certain degree I was concerning more on testosterone and wether or not if neutering may have advantages with regards to long term behaviours. If he is a little apprehensive around other dogs then personally, if it was me, I would leave him entire. The testosterone is what gives them confidence, I wouldn't want to reduce that in a dog already somewhat unsure. As a previous poster said, neutering can dampen some typical entire male behaviours but often won't get rid of them completely. In a very confident dog it can be beneficial in that the reduction of testosterone can calm them down somewhat and reduce aggression towards other male dogs (unless the aggression is fear based). When you say he carries on anyway, although he is not aggressive, that is not something I would tolerate. He needs to know that he needs to do what you say, when you say it in my opinion, not the third or fourth time. They can be a manipulative breed, I find that if they get the slightest hint that you don't really mean what you say they will run rings around you! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teresaserrano Posted September 23, 2014 Report Share Posted September 23, 2014 I'm completely against breeding dogs just because. It should be left to those few who really know what they're doing. Sure my Tess is great, but aren't they all? And she doesn't even herd. But even if she was a great working dog, she had eye surgery at 5 mo for congenital chataracts. Although it's impossible to say if her problem was hereditary (parents and litermates had no problem), it could be, so breeding her would be absolutely stupid, even if she won the herding championship. Still, I'm considering not neutering her. We live in an apartement and it's just the two of us. She's always with me, so not hard to avoid unwanted pregnancies. My last dog was spayed, and developed incontinence. It was not tipical spay incontinence and could have other reasons, and was somewhat controled with anti inflamatories, but it was no fun, poor Sara. And I always remember when some years ago I asked my doctor about taking everything out as I for sure was not interested in having more kids. His answer was: "Absolutely not. Your body needs those hormones." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RemsMom Posted September 23, 2014 Report Share Posted September 23, 2014 I don't understand why veterinarians want to neuter pets when they are so young. Years ago I never met a vet that would neuter before six months. In fact the vet would tell me to wait until my puppy was past six months and call to make an appointment. Now there is such a huge push to get animals neutered when they are really young. A few weeks ago I was talking to someone with a new BC puppy and she was telling me that her vet was bugging her to set up an appointment to get her puppy neutered. The puppy was nine weeks old! I would ignore your vet, do your own research and get Jack neutered if/when you feel the time is right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Camden's Mom Posted September 23, 2014 Report Share Posted September 23, 2014 I got my male dog neutered at the tender age of 5 months. If I had it to do over I'd absolutely wait until he was finished growing (minimum 16-18 months). There seems to be enough evidence of health issues (many joint related) resulting from early neuter. I was totally unaware of this as a first time dog owner. My vet never even suggested I wait or walked me through any other option then the early neuter. I thought I was being a responsible pet owner but looking back I wish I'd at least been told about the pro and cons of neutering so young. Having said that, I do still fully support spaying/neutering pet dogs. In a previous conversation on a similar topic someone mentioned vasectomy, which I think could be another reasonable alternative for male dogs. At the end of the day I don't know if I can hold too much of a grudge against vets who push hard and aggressively for owners to spay/neuter. I imagine every time they perform that procedure they must think to themselves "whew, another accidental litter avoided". They might also calculate that the risk of unwanted litters of puppies far outweighs the risk of possible health issues for the dog undergoing the spay/neuter. The members of these boards are outstanding dog owners. If any one of the regular members here said "I'm keeping my dog intact for the rest of it's life" I wouldn't bat an eyelash. However, if Jane or Jon Doe Public were to say that to me I'd cringe. Who knows, maybe Jane and Jon would be outstanding dog owners, perfectly capable of managing a dog that is still intact... OR they might be like the woman I met last weekend on a very popular trail packed with off leash dogs. She wasn't sure if her bitch puppy was coming into her first heat or not and thought the other dogs sniffing wildly around her pup were oh-so-funny... For that reason I stand behind spay/neuter as a reasonable expectation of everyday pet owners. If I were to get another puppy I would still plan to spay/neuter, I'd just wait until the puppy was a fully grown adult before scheduling the appointment. I'd agree with others that spay/neuter for behavior reasons is probably not necessary. It does seem to me everything you've described sounds like the normal, bratty behavior of a teenager It doesn't last forever, I promise. Training (and a good dose of patience) will get you guys through it in one piece, lol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GentleLake Posted September 23, 2014 Report Share Posted September 23, 2014 I'm in total agreement that you should wait until he's a bare minimum of one year old, and ideally at least 18 months old. You might also want to consider the information on the health benefits of leaving males intact: http://www.dogsnatur...b876d14a40bf5f5 http://www.dogsnatur...y-cancer-links/ http://www.naiaonlin...euterInDogs.pdf http://www.petmd.com...ow#.UgGfGW3j9Lx If you're not 100% confident that you can prevent him from mating, you could consider a vasectomy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sharatk Posted September 24, 2014 Report Share Posted September 24, 2014 If a dog/bitch is not fixed, won't it impact their interactions with other dogs(For example in a dog park)? Say a Bitch is in heat, she might cause a dog fight. An Intact male may be aggressive towards other dogs and mark, which might mean piss marks everywhere. How is an average owner supposed to control these if he decides to take the advice and do not operate his dog. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simba Posted September 24, 2014 Report Share Posted September 24, 2014 I have had intact dogs and bitches, and as the most average of owners I've never really had a problem with it. Our intact male was not aggressive and did not mark. As for the bitch, they really don't come into heat too often and for ours you always knew it when they did. The simple solution is to not take the in-heat bitch to a dog park. If even I can manage it, I can't imagine how incompetent you'd have to be to not be able to deal with a well-bred/good-natured intact bitch or dog. I know that the intact male untrained dog is the most likely to cause trouble- but I wonder if that would actually apply to the population of male dogs who are (a) trained and ( will be neutered if they show tendencies towards aggression. Sure, if the dog was already prone to aggression towards other dogs that could be a problem, but the worst dogs I've known for that were bitches (both intact and spayed, though spaying seems to possibly increase reactivity/aggression in bitches already prone to it). That seems like a problem for individual dogs, rather than for intact dogs in general. Keep them in, don't let them wander, and most of your problems are solved. That holds true for altered dogs as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maralynn Posted September 24, 2014 Report Share Posted September 24, 2014 The typical dog park scares me. The constantly shifting dynamic, number of dogs and lack of owner involvement/dog savvy means that fights happen even between altered dogs. As far as marking goes, neutered males mark, spayed females even mark. And there is no research that says that intact males are more aggressive. Oddly enough, annecdotal experience seems to point to the idea that neutered males are often the aggressor toward intact ones. I agree that overpopulation/irresponsible or indiscriminate breeding is a strong reason to alter a dog and that if you're not sure about your ability to prevent "oops" litters then you should havee your dog altered. But otherwise I think the other issues typically associated with being intact can be solved through training and managment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teresaserrano Posted September 24, 2014 Report Share Posted September 24, 2014 If a dog/bitch is not fixed, won't it impact their interactions with other dogs(For example in a dog park)? Say a Bitch is in heat, she might cause a dog fight. An Intact male may be aggressive towards other dogs and mark, which might mean piss marks everywhere. How is an average owner supposed to control these if he decides to take the advice and do not operate his dog. A bitch in heat has no place is areas where there are other dogs. Personally, I have no dificulty in walking my female in deserted places only, and under strict supervision, when in heat. Not everybody has this facility (if you don't have a dog-proof yard and don't have easy access to places with no dogs, for example), so that could be a very valid reason to spaying. Marking inapropriately is something a dog can be easily trained not to do. A male inatct dog has the same chances of developing agression towards other dogs as a neutered one, and usually that problem can be easily solved with training. If the dog shows strong agressive tendencies, or if the owner has no ability or interest in training said dog, then neutering is also a valid option (although probably won't magically make the agression disapear). Point is, there's many ways to create a balanced dog without neutering. I know a bunch of them (in Portugal neutering is not as common as in other countries) that are absolutely great with other dogs. Not to say I'm against neutering, far from it. But it's always good to be fully informed about the subject. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Camden's Mom Posted September 24, 2014 Report Share Posted September 24, 2014 The simple solution is to not take the in-heat bitch to a dog park. Yes, I was under the impression that if a bitch is in heat it's best just to keep her inside and away from places where she could attract other dogs. I've even heard leaving her unattended in a yard is taking a risk, as intact males could easily be compelled to scale a fence (that they might not otherwise) to get to her. I hate to be so cynical, but I really don't think most "average" dog owners are diligent or well informed enough to responsibly manage an intact dog. I don't know if I'd have made that sweeping negative statement before owning a dog. Having since met many, many, many dog owners who don't even seem to understand the most basic of dog behaviors has made me a little jaded, I guess. I really worry that if the new public take on sterilization becomes to encourage people NOT to spay/neuter, so long as owners are willing to properly manage their intact pet, we'd see a huge spike of unwanted litters. Last year I watched the HBO documentary "One Nation Under Dog". As much as I'd like to I can never un-see the opening footage for the third chapter, "Betrayal". It's one thing to talk about what happens to unwanted dogs and puppies but it's quite another to watch it. I just don't think I could get behind any public stance that actively discourages the public from sterilizing their pets even after the age where health risks are greatly reduced. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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