Energy bars

[Sunday]

What do you guys think of energy supplements for sport dogs, specifically these-

 

http://www.proplan.com/dry-dog-food/sport-adult-prime-bar/

http://www.proplan.com/dry-dog-food/sport-adult-refuel-bar/

 

Are they beneficial? Is there something better out there?

[Smalahundur]

Look at the ingredient list, not very impressive. I would not spend my money on it.

[GentleLake]

Me, neither.

[mum24dog]

Supplements shouldn't be necessary if the dog has a decent diet. They are just one more marketing scam for most dogs.

 

Don't over estimate the physical needs of a sport dog. It's a hobby at which they spend only a small proportion of their life. They need to be reasonably fit, that's all, and there's no substitute for regular exercise.

[Maralynn]

I like a glycogen (sp?) product for some situations - working intense heat or stress (Energy Edge or K9 Go Dog). But not really a fan of energy bars - the ingredients aren't great, IMO. I'd rather just feed more of their regular diet or add something like a balanced fat supplement to their regualr diet.

[gcv-border]

Yes, to what Maralynn said. ^^^^^

[Donald McCaig]

Dear Doggers,

 

Not uncommonly my dogs are fed in the morning, travel several hours to a sheepdog trial and wait around in the heat until late afternoon when they're asked to maintain focus while exerting themselves to the utmost. After just 10 minutes on the trial course they are exhausted.

 

Wendy Vollhard told me that they should get some sort of energy bar before competing to increase their blood sugar and that human athletes routinely increase theirs.

 

It's not my habit but Wendy knows much more about nutrition than I do.

 

My question: after an agility run, how tired are the dogs. Could they run a second time that same day?

 

Donald McCaig

[gcv-border]

Dear Doggers,

 

My question: after an agility run, how tired are the dogs. Could they run a second time that same day?

 

Donald McCaig

Most definitely. An agility run is anywhere from 13 seconds (my fastest time in NADAC) to 60-75 seconds. Of course, that is at sprint speed with turns and jumps. [Well, it is supposed to be at sprint speed.] Depending on the venue, the dog will run from 2 - ~6 times per day.

 

I don't think that the physical output is a problem for a well-conditioned dog, but other factors - heat, humidity, stress from waiting around for hours in a chaotic environment, possible travel the same day, etc. - may sap physical and mental energy.

 

My understanding is that glycogen bars will help with both.

 

YMMV.

[Gideon's girl]

A pure glycogen source is extremely easy to digest and put to use. A lot of those energy bars are not. I would not want to feed my dog something that needed a rest period to digest right in the middle of the activity.

 

My agility class is 2 hours long. We each do 2 runs on each course and typically, run 3 or 4 courses, with a good rest period inbetween each course while the other dogs run.. I've had a dog that was mentally tired from this activity, but never one that was physically tired or needed an energy supplement. I would suspect that that would be more appropriate for longer term aerobic activity, like stockwork over a larger area, sledding, SAR work.

 

In humans, it takes about 20 minutes of intense activity to burn all the glycogen stored in the liver. Dogs convert their food/body fat to glycogen much more efficiently than humans do, so they should be able to go longer without needing dietary replacement of glycogen.

[Smalahundur]

 

After just 10 minutes on the trial course they are exhausted.

 

 

If my dogs would be "exhausted" after 10 minutes of work, i would get rid of them.

I do realize trial work is pretty intense, but still, they would have to bounce back very quickly from such an exertion, or else they would be pretty useless to me. I need a dog that can work a whole day, of course with some breaks, and more and less intense periods of work during that day but still, exhaustion after ten minutes of intense work would be unacceptable.

Quote function is acting a bit weird.

[Donald McCaig]

Yep. Dogs that can do farmwork all day - or spot sheep all day - are pretty much shot after 10 minutes on a big trial course. The difference between trial work and farm work is the difference between Olympic sprinting and taking a stroll.

 

Donald McCaig

[Smalahundur]

Are you sure about that? I do not think it is a very good comparison, trialling and Olympic sprinting (I am a physical therapist, I know a thing or two about sport physiology).

 

My "farm work" is hill work as the British call it.

 

That means non dogged sheep from every farm in the vicinity in a hilly/marshy/rocky landscape without fences for the next 500 km.

When you think that turning an experienced ewe with her two 5 month old lambs that are dead set on going north when you had south in mind, having spotted them a kilometer away in the wrong direction, is like "taking a stroll" you have got another thing coming...

That is the "intense work periods" I was talking about, and it regularly lasts longer than those ten minutes.

 

It combines with very long drives, that indeed are a stroll.

 

This does make me wonder a bit about the breeding goal "winning trials", that only last for less than 15 minutes.

 

My disclaimer is that I don´t have personal experience in partaking in the kind of top trials you mention, but I have seen enough of them to think I have a reasonable good idea of the level of fitness (something else than level of difficulty mind you) required for a dog to clear such a course. I keep the possibility open that I am totally wrong about that

[Donald McCaig]

Dear Mr. Smalahundur,

 

It isn't fitness, it's focus. Excepting unusual weather conditions (deep snow, extreme heat), I've never had a dog suffer from a full day of farm work - including long gathers and bringing in canny ewes with newborn twins (I like your comparison by the way). I have had fit young dogs exhausted after 10 minutes on the trial course. So weary some were unable to exhaust the next handler's sheep (usually a piece of cake).

 

What makes the trial more difficult than trial work is: dog doesn't know the sheep, sheep don't know/trust the dog (and may be a breed the dog has never seen), unfamiliar terrain and obstacles and (usually) no use of the paths sensible sheep (and sheepdogs) have followed for generations. Add to this, the unusual precision required and just enough time so a very good dog can finish and trials are an order of magnitude more difficult than all but an all day hill gather or a full day in a busy lambing yard.

 

I note that every farmer tries to make his stockwork as routine and easy as can be whereas trial directors do the exact opposite.

 

 

 

Donald McCaig

[Smalahundur]

Okay, I probably focused too much on the physical fitness aspect. And you did put me on the wrong foot with your Olympic sprinter analogy

I would image it is the high stress environment (the high demands of the handler regarding precision etc) of the trial that makes the dogs as spend as you describe.

 

NB. Sadly enough, the hill gatherings here are not as much routine, or "traditional" as they once were. Has a lot to do with dwindling numbers of farmers and sheep (and a search area that does not get any smaller) This makes it more difficult and challenging. But that is food for an other discussion.

 

[alligande]

Mr McCaig, following on from your description of a dog at a trial, a similar thing is true in agility, not after the first couple of runs but by the 5th or 6th late in the afternoon, the dog has been crated in a strange environment, had to que with strange people and dogs, had limited amounts of free exercise and then has to think its way round a number of agility courses. As an example in one venue we have struggled to get a clear round in "jumpers" a course of strictly jumps which as a team we are very good at, because they also have the class at the very end of the day, in another venue we had already moved up to another grade before we got any ribbons in any other class, because the class is rotated to different spots at different trails. Basically by the last class of the day we are both mentally exhausted and could not figure our ways out of a paper bag.

[Donald McCaig]

Dear Doggers,

 

Whatever our chosen competition, we put enormous stress on our dogs. As Bill Berhow told me years ago, "These dogs like to sleep in their home at night." We ask them to perform better than they can in unfamiliar often distant venues against the best trained/handled local dogs and it says something for the value of work for our dogs that though their competitive efforts may be marred by stress, working/trialing doesn't make them the "crazy pet Border Collies" we've all seen whose life is the stress of confusion rather than extreme performance.

 

Donald McCaig

[Smalahundur]

Just to be clear, when I mentioned that high stress environment of the trial, I did not mean that in a negative way (the word stress has in daily use often a negative meaning). Just that it is very demanding for the dogs (and handlers), not a bad thing.

[mum24dog]

I was thinking of someone I know from a farming family who used to starve her dogs at least one day a week because that's what farmers did, or at least those she grew up with. Not sure if she still does it because she has more terriers than bigger dogs now.

 

I'm just wondering how it is that people who worked their dogs could get them to perform without any food, and only feeding them in the evening on non fasting days, while some people think that a dog needs an energy bar before jumping a few obstacles.

 

I'm assuming that if lack of food rendered a dog incapable of working adequately feeding wouldn't have been done that way.

[PSmitty]

I use K9 Energy Edge with my agility dog. I like it, and it seems to help when it's warm. We use the powder, but it comes in a bone formula, too.

 

http://k9energyedge.com/

[Donald McCaig]

Dear Doggers,

Mrs Mum writes (in part):

 

I'm assuming that if lack of food rendered a dog incapable of working adequately feeding wouldn't have been done that way.

 

 

We often underestimate the poverty of the shepherds who created the Border Collie. In the early 19th century the Scottish life expectancy was not quite 30 and James Hogg gave faithful Sirrah away because the farmer who employed them both couldn't be expected to feed a retired Shepherd's dog.

 

At a guess, much of the sheepdog's diet was scavenged: carrion and manure and corn was supplemented when available.

 

Donald McCaig

[Root Beer]

I always take ample treats along to trials and I use them liberally for warmup and after-run jackpots.

 

I often stop on our way home for a celebration snack (for both dogs and myself), and I will often give my sport dog some extra dinner after a trial (just because).

 

I wouldn't see a need for an energy bar unless I had a dog who seemed to lag at and/or after trialing. And if that were happening, I would probably be taking a close look at the dogs health and fitness level across the board.

[mum24dog]

Dear Doggers,Mrs Mum writes (in part): I'm assuming that if lack of food rendered a dog incapable of working adequately feeding wouldn't have been done that way.We often underestimate the poverty of the shepherds who created the Border Collie. In the early 19th century the Scottish life expectancy was not quite 30 and James Hogg gave faithful Sirrah away because the farmer who employed them both couldn't be expected to feed a retired Shepherd's dog.At a guess, much of the sheepdog's diet was scavenged: carrion and manure and corn was supplemented when available.Donald McCaig

A plea of poverty wasn't the justification, it was thought to be good for the dog. I'm not talking of the days before even my grandparents were born.

 

Maybe they were ahead of the game as nowadays it is promoted in some quarters for the same reason - for humans too.

[simba]

What I've read suggests oatmeal as a basic diet for the sheepdog- the same as it was for many people. They can get black tongue disease from only oatmeal, so you give them blood, scraps from your own food or fish meal.

 

I have heard of not feeding a dog for one day a week. The only explanation apart from weight control was to 'give his liver a rest'.

[Smalahundur]

I would not put any trust in dietary advice based on how things were done in 'the olden days'...

[mum24dog]

I would not put any trust in dietary advice based on how things were done in 'the olden days'...

 

 

Take such advice with caution certainly but don't assume that the old timers knew nothing. The might have known what but not why.

 

This may be a load of nonsense but it shows that there are those in the scientific community taking the idea seriously.

 

https://www.dogsnaturallymagazine.com/why-you-should-fast-your-dog/

 

I'm not a sucker for anything labelled "natural" (as in the title of the mag) but at the very least it's interesting.