Food?

[CJR]

I am now totally confused about proper diet. My vet recommends Science Diet - have heard that vets only recommend it because they sell it. Have been told to feed puppy growth food - have been told NOT to feed puppy growth food. I have a 10 week old BC who is presently eating Iams mini chunks. I really want the best for him - so decided to ask the experts - the ones who have these dogs. Suggestions, please as to proper diet of commercial food?

 

Thanks, thanks, thanks - Cyndi

[Mary & Dogs]

Here is what I do - right or wrong. But my dogs generally live to be old and are not usually overweight.

 

I feed my dogs Iams for less active dogs. My dogs weigh from 33 to 55 pounds. They each get about 2 cups a day. I feed twice a day. A little less if they start to get too heavy. Even my little Ellie gets the less active stuff - but I feed her a little more. She is pretty skinny.

 

I have also fed Science Diet. The Hills people have done a ton of research on their dog food. And my very first dog, a little cockpoo lived her whole life on Purina Dog Chow. And she lived to be 18. But I don't think you need to go with the puppy chow. Get adult that has little pieces. These puppies don't need a whole lot of protein.

 

I think the main thing is just to feed a high quality food that isn't just a whole bunch of filler. I have fed my dogs Purina One Lamb and Rice. That seemed fine, too. It is important with a puppy not to change its food all at once. The get the runs if you do that. I don't think I would feed some of the grocery store varieties that have a lot of dye in them. Dogs don't need colored red and yellow food.

 

I always feed dry food as I think it keeps their teeth cleaner.

[Bill Fosher]

Science Diet Lamb and Rice Maintenance is technically one of the best dog foods I've found. I like the ingredients, I like the levels of fat and protein, and the proportions of each. What I don't like is the price: nearly $1 per pound.

 

I would argue strongly against using a puppy food with a Border collie pup. They don't need to grow fast; in fact, slow growth is better for them. It's easier on the bones, the joints, and most importantly, on their minds.

 

High-protein dog food is often a contributing factor in pups with behavioral problems, especially hyperactivity problems.

 

Most adult dog food is too high in protein, and the puppy stuff is generally the worst. I've taken to feeding Precise Sensicare (lamb and rice) because it has a fairly low protein level (22 percent). The dogs and pups are doing fine on it.

 

 

 

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Bill Fosher

Surry, NH

[Smokjbc]

Hi all,

 

Just wanted to pipe up a little in defense of vets recommending Science Diet. As office manager, I can assure you your vet is not making much money of Science Diet. We barely mark it up because it is already pretty high cost from Science Diet, and the costs of keeping inventory maintained and keeping an adequate supply of rarely sold, yet occasionally needed prescription diets makes up for most of the profit they make off it. It is a very good diet, I've fed my dogs in for several years now and they are very healthy, have good stamina and shiny coats.

 

I also agree that puppy food is really unneccessary except in the few weeks after weaning, or if you have to wean early. A lean Border Collie pup is a healthy one. This isn't about dogs, but right now I have a huge fat cat who is on prescription weight loss diet, and a kitten. I can't feed the kitten, kitten food, because Wily will get into it and its a big risk for him to get any fatter- so the kitten eats the same diet food and he is doing just fine.

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by Smokjbc (edited 07-16-2002).]

[Bill Fosher]

I didn't mean to imply that anyone was getting rich off Science Diet (except possibly the folks at Hills). I just found that it was too expensive. The formula that I fed for a while was not a veterinary prescription formula, but one that the feed store carried. My feed store stopped carrying it because they couldn't make any money on it. The cost was so high that if they tried to add anything onto it to cover their cost of inventory, it became so expensive that people bought other brands.

 

My point is that it's good, but it's not *that* good.

 

------------------

Bill Fosher

Surry, NH

[Britta]

Here in the UK the Science Diet works out at almost $2 per pound! Therefore, although mine were doing great on it i've decided to change them onto a British brand!

Britta

[JEL]

Hi Cyndi -

 

tough subject. what works well for one dog doesn't always work well for the next. take Science Diet for instance. I've had the most rotten luck with it and you couldn't pay me to feed it - ! Of course, the next dog I own might do just fine on it.

 

in my opinion, its more important to pay attention to the health and condition of your dog. for instance, do avoid the growth formulas that put undo stress on growing bones and cartilege....

 

I've had good luck with Nutro, Premium Edge, Old Mother Hubbard, and Flint River Ranch. It all pretty much depends(ed) on the individual dog....for instance, my 5 y.o. border collie tends to be a bit heavy, and I've used *lite* foods from Nutro and Premium Edge, and while she was the picture of health, she did not trim down. Then I overheard some agility people saying they tried Wellness by Old Mother Hubbard, and they couldn't keep weight ON their dogs! Now I have my dog on Wellness, and it is a gradual thing, but she is slimming down.

 

My first Border Collie was on Natural Choice by Nutro for her entire 14+ years and did great - ! My next dog, a Golden Retriever, did well on the same food up until he was about 11 y.o. We then went through a whole series of problems/illnesses...and bottom line is that he is now 14 1/2 and as healthy as one can expect - and eating Flint River Ranch.

 

So I guess my best advice is to stick with what works well for your dog...but always be ready and willing to try something new if the need arises.

 

janet

[Guest PrairieFire]

"Nutritional Profiles" are VERY dog-specific...as Janet points out.

 

I feed only Precise Foundation - works the best for my dogs, their work and living conditions...

 

I've tried MANY other brands - including brands that are horribly more expensive - and there is a noticeable difference in the stamina of my dogs on Precise - so although I dislike the distribution system up here for the food, I drive nearly 100 miles round trip to purchase it...

 

But your dog might do well on another kind of premium food - I would only feed the premium stuff and make certain that ethyoxyquin uis not used as preservative (banned as a cancer causing agent in humans but still allowed in dog food).

 

I also toss the little garbage-eating scavengers an occasional carrot, apple, soup bone, organ meat, etc...

 

------------------

Bill Gary

Kensmuir, Working Stockdog Center

River Falls, WI

715.426.9877

www.kensmuir.com

[Kate]

In my opinion SD petfood is very expensive garbage.I don't understand how they can justify being considered premium food at all.Only thing premium about it is it's price.

Just as some people can eat garbage and look good so can some dogs but it is not the norm. High quality protien is much different than plain high protien dogfood. If you read the labels the protien is listed as crude protien,which has nothing to do with usuable protien. Feeding a food which is high in crude protien is where dogs get into trouble.What can't be actually digested and used by the animal has to be filtered and removed by the liver, kidneys etc.The protien ingredients used in foods such as SD,Iams Netro, etc are far from acceptable just for the simple fact most comes from grain instead of meat. The grains used are not whole grains but the byproducts of another industry. Check out the majority of Lamb and rice foods. The rice is brewers rice.What is left over after the distilling process.Mostly worthless.Science diet has made a fortune on creating special diet foods to help dogs who are showing symtoms from eating their original matainence food.

I do believe SD and the other premium foods are a step above grocery foods but no way premium.

Foods such as California Natural, Innova and others that use human grade meat and grains are far superior. Even though the price is 4 to 6 dollars more a bag it doesn't really cost more in the end.My dogs only need half the amount of dryfood when I feed these compared to the premium brands.The differece in their coats, smell and energy is huge. If I am feeling broke and buy a bag of Iams or Netro etc I can actually see the coats dulling up and start smelling that doggie smell before the 40lbs is gone.

Here is a website that has some interesting facts and opinions on food. It is long so take your time and read it all. It is not all one sided as most food sites. It is interesting and gives you a chance to make up your own mind.

http://www.whisperingwolf.com/HOG_WILD_FOR...WILD_Homex.html

[Guest rtphokie]

Just feed what works for your dog. Simple enough, right? LOL! Seriously, if you dog is in good condition, then what you're feeding is fine.

Watch out for the higher calcium in puppy foods also. No matter what you're feeding your puppies, whether it's high or low whatever, just make sure they are kept on the skinny side.

 

Laura

[Cholla1]

Don't believe everything you read, especially on the internet and definitively not on nutrition.

 

Learn how the body absorbs nutrients, transforms them for it's own use and eliminates them yourself.

Don't trust the ideas of others on it that don't really know how the process works.

 

As one of our vet's, that is an expert on nutrition, told us on a talk, the body doesn't really care where the nutrients come from.

It is designated to handle them as ingested and once processed by it, all will be used the same, no matter their source.

 

Much research has been done on nutrition in dogs and yes, companies use short cuts and the lower end ones lower quality products but once we choose a sensibly produced food, the difference is in the marketing.

All better foods are for practical purposes the same as they depend on the same research for their formulations.

 

There is no "human grade" food products per se.

Each company defines that differently as there is not a regulatory definition.

It is just some marketing by some companies to make their food sound better.

 

As said before, if your dogs do well on one food, that is a "good" food.

 

If you have a specific diagnosed problem, then you need to work with your vet and your own experiences on what is working for that problem in that dog.

 

Several recent studies the last several years have shown clearly protein to be a necessary part of any diet and that overfeeding it doesn't have any side effects as far as it being eliminated.

It was once said it to be "hard on kidneys" but that has been disproved and today's food for senior dogs has been changed to reflect the need for higher protein content in the later years, where the body is not as efficient in processing it's food and protein is a good and easy way of gaining nutrients for that older dog.

Very few conditions have a need for a restricted protein diet.

 

Extra protein has been shown to increase agression in dogs predisposed to it in some recent studies and that is now being studied further to see if it is so and what mechanism is involved.

Remember, only in dogs "predisposed" to agression, not in the general dog population.

 

Protein is the most important and best source of nutrition for young, nursing, high performance and recuperating dogs.

It is a limiting factor in those areas if not fed in sufficient amounts.

 

If you think your puppy is better off growing slowly, be careful when restricting his protein to do so.

We don't know yet that doing so is appropiated and not enough can definitely be harmful.

Use some common sense.

 

Edited to say that restricting slightly the total amount of food is better, if a lean/slower growing one is desired, than using a reduced anything food.

Better keep that proper proportion of ingredients for that dog than restricting just one.

 

This is an exception but as per our vet's instructions, we kept a lean, hard working dog on puppy chow until she was six years old.

Every time we tried to put her on adult food she didn't do well until at six her system slowed down enough to start putting weight on that.

Then we changed to adult food.

Only this dog had to be managed so.

All our other dogs were changed from puppy to adult at anywhere from six to nine months of age, depending on how they were doing.

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by Cholla1 (edited 08-24-2002).]

[Margaret M Wheeler]

Access is an important issue for me. I am not a particularly organized person and am often doing last minute runs for food. I do wonder if my food contributed to Fergus' two bouts of bladder stones. When we had our first three terriers (Fergus, Scamper and Tully) we fed them Purina ONE adult because we were both very busy working and could get it in the grocery store. We were told by a Purina Pro Plan vendor that ONE is really Pro Plan irregular (just not uniform pellets). After I got a bad bag of ONE at WalMart, I stopped feeding it. I don't know if it has the really bad thing, uis ethyoxyquin, in it or not. I'll look next time I'm at the store.

 

We had been feeding SD adult maintenance up til about a year ago when we switched to Senior and the UD for Fergus. Nutrition and Health care have always been my weakest points as a breeder. I take a critical approach to most things in life but these areas overwhelm me for some reason and I always end up taking the easy middle road and/or following my vets instructions the best I can. My vet always looks like she swallowed a lemon when I mention "alternative" diets. I know I can't do the raw food diets. No, way I could organize all the different food groups, I have a hard enough time doing that for my kids.

 

I wonder, can I get a standing order for one of these other foods so that it was shipped to me at the right intervals? I had a friend who did something like that once. I am mostly concerned for the pup I get from Bill and Mary. The old farts seem to be doing well on their old fart SD diets.

 

------------------

Margaret

retired terrierwoman, border collie newbie

drumlins@adelphia.net

 

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by Margaret M Wheeler (edited 08-24-2002).]

[JEL]

Margaret,

my old dog is fed Flint River Ranch...and you can set up a program of automatic shipments, if that is your preference...

 

janet

[ikw]

Margaret,

 

I feed Flint River Ranch also after trying many other brands.

Service is great and you could buy just a 20lb bag or 200lb.

I've got my pups on it and so far they seem to thrive with normal growth in a lean bodies.

I also put my husband's pup on it,she was a super hyped-up pup,she's now like the other two,very responsive,alert but not hyper at all.

 

Here's their web site: www.flintriver.com

 

Click on Product info.

 

 

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Inci Willard

Clearville,PA

814-784-3414

ikw@pennswoods.net

[Bill Fosher]

Cholla1

 

I don't believe that I'm advocating restricting protein. I am advocating feeding a *relatively* low protein diet to Border collies.

 

Many premium brands are now pushing 30 percent protein, and that's simply too much based on my experience.

 

You can get a 20 to 22 percent protein kibble (which is higher protein than most dog foods in the UK, by the way) with 12 to 15 percent fat that is labeled to provide complete and balanced nutrition for all stages of growth. That's what I'm advocating.

 

And I can also tell you that fat is far more important to a dog's diet than most people realize. Once a "performance" dog is past the initial sprint, it is running on fat, not on protein or carbs.

 

As with all things, diet must be in balance. I wouldn't advocate feeding a dog piles of suet. But I stand by my conviction that *most* American dog food is too high in protein and too low in fat, and that puppies -- at least Border collie puppies -- are better off eating high-quality adult food from the time they're weaned.

 

I'm not raising a market hog. I have time to wait for the pup to grow into his brain.

 

------------------

Bill Fosher

Surry, NH

[Guest PrairieFire]

Second Bill Fosher's advice.

 

Many top dogs in the UK work harder than most ANY dog in the US, and live healthy, productive lives on gruel of some kind - oats, milk, corn, whatever happens to be around.

 

Canines, as they evolved and as they still are in most countries, are garbage-eating scavengers, and not, as Bill F. points out, market hogs...

 

The animal nutrition industry can increase prices exponentially with the addition of low cost protien into pet food. Especially when that low cost protein is also low quality as it is in many foods.

 

A good quality food, in proper amounts, in proportions as Bill F. mentions (20-22% P, 12-15% F) is a good mix...although since individual nutrition profiles will vary, not only with the dog, but the dogs activity and the conditions, you may need to vary the diet slightly depending...

 

Oh, and Bill, the most "performance" dog man I know - Will Steger - DOES feed his sled dogs suet on their trips to the poles...but I ain't going there, it gets cold enough here...

 

------------------

Bill Gary

Kensmuir, Working Stockdog Center

River Falls, WI

715.426.9877

www.kensmuir.com

 

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by PrairieFire (edited 08-25-2002).]

[Margaret M Wheeler]

Ooops got my personae mixed up! Thanks for the info, Janet and Inci.

 

------------------

Margaret

retired terrierwoman, border collie newbie

drumlins@adelphia.net

[Bill Fosher]

Hey Bill,

 

I have to watch myself. Many times when I say "dog," I mean "Border collie." I suppose if those Sled dogs happened to be Border collies, they certainly could use that much fat. There's no richer source of calories.

 

I actually do feed a little suet or lamb trimmings to the dogs when they're working the hardest. Bacon grease is another of my favorite amendments to kibble.

 

What you say about nutritional profile is also very true. I have to dogs that weigh nearly the same and work nearly the same. One stays almost too lean on three cups a day, and one gets a little plump on two cups a day.

 

------------------

Bill Fosher

Surry, NH

[SoloRiver]

There are a lot of really excellent kibbles out there that use whole ingredients and lack additives. The Whole Dog Journal publishes a list of the best every year that I find pretty reliable. I bugged a vet student friend into talking to one of the Penn nutritionists about dog food for me and she concurred that these foods are the best you can get.

 

The WDJ lists from various years, with comments, are here:

http://members.aol.com/smplyschnz/nutrition/wdjtopten.html

 

The Natura website's "feeding wizard" allows you to compare ingredients lists of various foods. Yes, the site is run by a dog food company and must be taken as such, but the ingredients lists are accurate and it's an easy way to make comparisons.

http://www.naturapet.com/

 

I tend to switch foods around because I like to shop and the dogs seem to like the novelty. Solo and Fly eat a base of California Natural mixed with Innova or Pinnacle (for Fly, whose furnace burns a bit higher than Solo's), or Wellness Super5 Mix (for Solo, who thinks it is way yummy and is more of an easy keeper). They're both in excellent health, with plenty of energy, beautiful coats, nicely-functioning minds and bodies, and small, economical, not-very-smelly poops. The latter is important when you live in the city and have to pick every piece up.

 

-- Melanie, Solo the Red, and Superfly

[Guest PrairieFire]

Hey Melanie - interesting lists, thanks for posting them...

 

I wanted to stress the individual's dogs nutritional needs again though...the Eagle Pack that is listed as a top 10 for example, proved a REAL mistake for my dogs over their regular Precise Foundation...

 

It was easily twice as expensive, but because of the advertising I thought I'd feed it for a month or so...

 

The dogs ate nearly twice as much, lost much of thier stamina, and thier coats got brittle...

 

THIS IS NOT A PUTDOWN of Eagle Pack - but an observation that just buying a food and feeding it isn't really the answer - observe your dogs on ANY food...

 

------------------

Bill Gary

Kensmuir, Working Stockdog Center

River Falls, WI

715.426.9877

www.kensmuir.com

[Silkster]

I've been reading through these posts about food and now I have some questions. When I got Boston they had her eating pedigree puppy food and when I went to the store I bought a small bag of nutro. when she ran out I, not knowing any better, bought puppy chow, I ended buying 2 more small bags when the problems hit.

 

I noticed that her skin felt like it was burning and she was constantly scratching. she had horrible dandruff. it was everywhere. The guys at the pet store talked me into buying $14 shampoo made out of oatmeal which only mildly helped. but then it got really scarey because she started throwing up. at first it was only in the mornings and then progressed to throwing up several times a day.

 

I packed up all her toys, food and sleeping equipment (Large load I know, even the vet said so! ) and I hauled her off to the vet's office. the vet checked out all her stuff and when she got to the food she told me it was the dog food. She said boston is allergic to corn and the food had "fillers" in it that were undigestable. so she gave us some heartworm medicine, her rabie shot and some antiobiotics for the puking. Just in case she said.

 

She said nutro was good to stick with so that's what it's been ever since. She still has those hot spots but not as bad and she rarely pukes anymore. although it does seem like she's got a very touchy stomache.

 

So is nutro a good choice for her?

[Jen & Jaya]

There are plenty of choices out there for dogs allergic to corn. My dogs are doing fabulously on Wellness, which has all flavors (chicken, lamb, whitefish) without corn. California Natural has only about four ingredients and many people like it because it limits what a dog might react to with allergies.

 

I agree with Bill and Melanie's advice. Narrow your choices down to a small group, then choose a food and observe your dog on it. If you notice problems with the skin, stamina, stomach, or weight, then switch foods. If you switch gradually, over the period of a week, mixing them together, you'll minimize the diarrhea. It isn't bad to switch a dog's food, if you take some care with it. If your dog does well on it for a few months, then you've found a food!

 

I strongly recommend the Whole Dog Journal's top ten as a starting point, and though I'm not familiar with Precise, it sounds like a good testimonial from Bill Gary.

 

I look for a food that has meat-based sources of protein as the first ingredients. Wellness's lamb has lamb,lamb meal, and whitefish as the first three ingredients. It's the only one I know with three meat sources before any grains (generally used as filler since dogs don't naturally have a strong need for carbohydrates). Also be careful of "generic" meat titles like "poultry" instead of chicken. What a company is allowed to throw in the food under the guise of "poultry" is sometimes very concerning.

 

Like Bill Fosher said, though, you want the protein to be quality, but not necessarily quantity. Somewhere in the low to mid 20% is what's worked for our dogs.

 

Also, steer clear of preservatives like BHT, BHA, and ethoxyquin. I also don't want any kind of sugar in the food.

 

Good luck!

 

[This message has been edited by Jen & Jaya (edited 09-04-2002).]

[Dawn Bailey]

Well I just needed to add my 2cents.

 

I feed whatever dog food my dogs do best on: I have fed:

 

Science Diet

raw diet

wysong

flint River Ranch

home made cooked

NRG

Natures Recipe

Sensible choice

Purina pro plan chicken

IVD fish and potato

Cannida

 

each one of these dog food were outstanding when I was feeding it.

 

I feed 5 dogs now and use 3 different dog foods. I feed what works for each dog, as they are not the same age (never have fed old age dog food or less active type).

 

If one of my dogs are getting plump then I cut back on the kibble.

 

the right dog food is the best dog food for your dog! Bill did you say that?

 

if your dog has red skin, lesions (hot spots) brittle coat etc... you need to rethink your dog food.

 

While I was working at the large animal vet about 4 years ago and the knacker was hauling off a horse the vet just put down, I quized him on the buyers of the meat at the rendering plant, Kasco and Purina were the two buyers for the meat meal. This meat meal also included dogs, cats, horses, (no lamb or goats) all could have been euth. That is allot of drugs going into the food our dogs are eating.

 

Dawn Bailey

Eatonville, WA

[Jen & Jaya]

I have also read about what Dawn mentioned--euthanized dogs and cats ending up in dog food under the name "animal meal" or "meat meal."

 

There is a collection of articles on this subject at http://www.fuzzyfaces.com/lfood1.html

 

As far as I can tell when you read the ingredient label you want it to be as specific as possible: "beef" not "meat"; "chicken" not "poultry"; "lamb" not "animal."

 

 

[This message has been edited by Jen & Jaya (edited 09-05-2002).]