Novice dog - Too close to sheep

[gcv-border]

Some elementary training with my dogs have resulted in a similar problem with both:

 

When they are on the opposite side of the sheep, and I am either walking backwards or walking away, they do a good job of wearing? the sheep to follow me. In fact, they are too pushy IMO. They will be right up the sheep butts, pushing faster than I would like (faster than I can walk, and I am trying to move right along). Most of the time, neither will grip, but I have see both (one more than the other) that will make 'air-snaps'.

 

I am guessing that this behavior is due to being a novice dog that lacks confidence in their ability to move sheep. I don't believe that they intend harm - although I do want to address the air-snaps at this stage before it might progress to gripping (yes/no?).

 

What strategies do you recommend to try and teach a novice dog that they can stay back a bit and the sheep will still move? I have tried to a lie down (which works), and then ask for a walk up/steady - which doesn't work since they walk right up to the sheep's butts again. How does one try to teach pace or a slow/steady walk up?

 

Hoping this makes sense. If I have left anything out, I will try to explain better if needed.

 

Thanks in advance for your thoughts.

[Donald McCaig]

Dear Aspiring Sheepdogger,

 

Both dogs the same? Common problem. Excitement. As a rule it's easier to reform a pushy dog than encourage a timid one. So rejoice. Wearing is useful for (some) novice trials and to start a dog fetching but it's a skill you won't use much later on - either for farmwork or trialing. I wouldn't spend a lot of time curing it (much handier to have the dog wear to an ATV or pickup).

 

Down dog when he's pushing too hard, "Walk on" GROWL "Steady!!!" (Make him hear you) "Steady!!!" If he absolutely ignores you charge through the sheep into his face and drive him back w/GROWL. Shouldn't need to do that more than a time or two.

 

Donald McCaig

[Mark Billadeau]

If you stop walking while in balance (you - sheep - dog) do your dogs stop on their own or keep pushing the sheep past you? You should be able to stand still and not have the dog push the sheep past you unless you ask it to do so.

[gcv-border]

Thank you for the above replies. To clarify, I am also a novice handler. At this point, I am interested in learning options so I can think on the various alternatives, and then try to implement them in a cohesive and consistent manner and observe how my dogs respond.

 

To Donald: yes, I am happier that my dogs are a bit pushy, because I find it exhausting, and often frustrating, to motivate. I have heard that wearing is not an important skill, but I was worried that if the dog is pushy at this point, he would also be pushy and too close to the sheep when driving. Any thoughts on that? And I have not yet tried to walk through the sheep to give a correction. To this point, I have turned around to face the dog, and then given a 'lie down' (which I am happy to say that they will 'lie down' fairly well), then start to back away while I say 'walk up', then 'steady' - and often will raise my voice with another 'steady' when I see they are creeping/walking up too fast. That is the trouble spot where I would like them to approach slowly and adjust their pace, but they want to get up in their butts. Perhaps I need to use my body and voice more strongly as you suggest.

 

To Mark: Good point. I have not tried that. I would predict that the pushing would continue.

[Mark Billadeau]

Jovi, I've been teaching Lee (you saw how pushy and fast he is) to stop on his own at the "bubble" (that distance near the sheep where they will move away from the dog) when I am standing still and the sheep are at my feet. I block him from flanking, correct him for pushing in, and praise him when he decides to stop pushing in. I then ask him to walk up and push the sheep past me. I want him to mentally calm down (control himself) enough to feel his sheep.

[denice]

Here are a couple ideas. I do not walk backward, I turn and walk and watch the dog over my shoulder if I need to check on things. The sheep will let you know if the dog is pushing to hard. By watching them and walking backward you are placing pressure on them, some dogs push back and just turning around will fix it, they relax. Different dogs can be different distances and the sheep will react to each dog differently. If the sheep are not worried about the dog being close then he is not IMO. I think continuing to push the sheep past you is different than working close. Pushing past you indicates there is not the right feel to me. Are either of the dogs slicing flanks or disturbing sheep on their flanks? Are they to close other places? When you make your correction do they take the correction and the next time trying to adjust and figure out what they were doing wrong or do they just do it the same way again? How old are they? Do you know how the parents work? Are they thinking and feeling the sheep?

 

I find some dogs are very good at correcting themselves with patience if you give them time. If they are young and trying to figure it out I try to wait on them a bit if it is nothing harmful. You have to balance that with things possibly becoming a bad habit. I tend not to use a down for correction I use an AH or HEY or Get OUT, What are doing?. If they stop when asked but keep pushing to hard then I would say you have not corrected them with a stop. I believe dogs need a correction to be acknowledged by them so you see a reaction that tells you message received. Again it is individual - some dogs will lower a head, some dogs look away, some tuck a tail... Some of the more stubborn strong pushy dogs I dont feel they have acknowledged me till they turn heads off sheep and give ground, those dogs I walk through the bunch and continue correcting until they acknowledge me. Some people stop the correction when the action stops mistaking thinking that the dog got it when in fact he did not register that as a correction. Softer more sensitive dogs do not need that type of correction but I always look for a 'I understand, you don't like that' from the dog.

 

Work on pace a bit on your fetches. Again with an ah or time or steady get them thinking while bringing sheep.

If your sheep are on the tame side and not reacting to the dogs if they are close by or tight then the dogs are learning the wrong thing from the sheep. I try to allow the sheep teach the dog using very little commands on young dogs. Listening to me and doing what I say is lots different than the dog using instinct and learning about sheep. I think if sheep are knee knockers or tame and just go with you then the dogs learn they can be close and push and it is all good, sometimes they have to close to get a reaction from the sheep. Fresher sheep may teach them they have to stay farther off, the sheep will FEEL the dogs more so the dog learns to Feel the sheep.

 

Just some thoughts so you can look at things differently. It helps me to set up a video so I can go back and watch it, you see different things that make a world of difference. Better yet is having an experienced person come and watch your dog on your sheep but that is not possible all the time so the video is next best choice.

[dsmbc]

I agree with Denice about using fresher sheep. I have a set of really heavy sheep that my dog has learned that he needs to push, but when he is on lighter sheep, he is busting them up because he pushes too hard. So I switched out sheep with some much lighter sheep and if he pushes too hard, the sheep let him know, so he is now starting to figure out when to push and when not to.