A brace?

[Alfreda]

I know there are competitions in the UK that involve working with a brace of dogs. Are there some in the U.S.?

 

Do most handlers use separate commands for each dog or do they use same commands and call the individual dog's name first or something?

[Gloria Atwater]

I am not aware of any brace competitions in the US, unless there are some small ones some place on the local level. I don't know why this is.

To the best of my knowledge, they put the dogs on different whistles, but I'm sure there are any number of variations.

~ Gloria

[Donald McCaig]

Dear aspiring sheepdoggers,

 

I've seen a very few brace demonstrations in north america. In the demos, the handler typically used different whistles for each dog though I once saw Roy Johnson do an arena demo with Roscoe and June where Roy used voice commands ASSUMING each dog would understand for whom the command was intended - and they did. Of course in the arena, Roscoe and June would have been able to read every subtlety of Roy's body language and Roy, Roscoe and June were bonded in a way few teams are but that said, I never saw anything like it before or since.

 

Donald McCaig

[dsmbc]

Once in a while brace is offered at a trial in the Midwest. Some folks have different whistles and some use the same. Both ways seem to work.

[denice]

I have never seen a Brace competition and would enjoy it. Even in the UK there are far fewer brace competitors than individuals. In talking to a few guys over there they say it is difficult to find a pair of dogs well matched. I know just using two dogs for chores can be interesting. If it is something simple like just moving a large flock behind a 4 wheeler they seem to split up duties - one pushes the flock and another tuck in the sides or they each take a half and push and do one side. It is pretty cool to see. My experience even with chores is some dogs do not enjoy working as part of a team others get pushier and compete for work. Their personalities need to similar so that if you correct one the other is ok with that and does not take it personally. I find it difficult to work one dog that is pushy and one that is more laid back and more sensitive.

[Tea]

I have often worked two dogs together or sometimes four if there is a particular reason. I have worked them both with same commands and opposite commands. And by using name before command up

close.

But the dogs figure this out pretty easily if you practice.

 

And it is how denice says they take up different aspects of the work.

 

Like a team playing positions.

 

Somewhere on the markquiaki youtube channel in the Sweep and Taw complilation is that team working together

[juliepoudrier]

There was someone (Colin Cleer for any of you who might know him) who used to set sheep here in the east who always worked his dogs as a brace for that job. It was amazing to watch. I often work two of mine at the same time, especially when moving flocks from pasture to pasture, where one dog pushes and the other covers and prevents sheep breaking away (say, up the driveway) as we move across open areas. Mine are on the same whistles, and I generally call a name first to alert the dog who I'm commanding. Mine work well together most of the time, though the competitiveness thing does sometimes rear its head. But they do generally take a job (Pip pushes; Lark covers) and stick to it.

 

That said, if I truly wanted to work a brace at a high (or competitive) level, I'd probably put them on different whistles. It's just easier. The hard part would be remember whose whistles were whose. I have to say, though, that I had one dog who was on a different set of whistles, and as I walked to the post I'd run through her whistle set in my head as a reminder. Only one time early on in our partnership (at Seclusival) did I ever give her the wrong whistles (blowing her recall, which was all of my other dogs' right flank--oops, it took me a few tries to realize WHY she kept coming back toward me when I was asking for a flank!) Anyway, maybe I'll put Kiss on a different set of whistles just so I could easily work her and Birdie together in the future should I want to.

 

But I've never seen a brace competition here in the US.

 

J.

[Tea]

I have seen brace competition at an NCA trial

[amc]

Ian Caldicott in Scio, Oregon, puts on quite a few trials each year. He's long been an advocate of brace work, and last year he had a brace competition in conjunction with the Northwest Championship Sheepdog Trial. I entered a team to support the effort - both my dogs are on the same whistles, and being mother and son there is a bit of competitiveness between them, but we got around to the shed and it wasn't too ugly, but a wily shetland ewe from the homeflock prevented us from getting our shed. It was a lot of fun and the crowd was very supportive.

 

We also had brace competitions at the inaugural Western States Regional Championship in 2000, judged by Alasdair MacRae and Kent Kuykendall. I'd love to see more of it, and like Julie, I might just put my new pup on different whistles 'just in case'.

 

Amy

[Sue R]

I don't have my dogs on whistles - on our smaller farm and with my lack of progress in learning to whistle with any consistency, voice commands have sufficed even though they might not be optimal. I sometimes use both Celt and Dan for moving cattle or pushing them into the pens, and I used to do the same with Celt and Bute when we still had him. And I don't have different commands (I am pretty limited, as you can tell).

 

I have tried using the individual dog's name before the command as that *could* work but it doesn't work for me. Largely, since our jobs are fairly simple (moving cattle through a field, through a gate, into the pens, etc.) I don't say much to the dogs at all and they seem to work pretty well together. They appear to "honor" each other's work - if one is doing something, the other does not interfere.

 

They balance each other. Celt likes to work with eye and at a distance, and Dan likes to work with his movement and closer up. Celt used to get anxious with Bute and Dan as their working so close up would get his pressure-o-meter reading in the stratosphere, and he'd want to flip back off to relieve his stress, but that is no longer the case as he has grown more accustomed to working with a close-up-and-personal partner.

 

They both seem to not only watch the cattle and their movements and intents, but keep tabs on each other and work naturally together to get the job done. That never ceases to amaze me as they are so different in personality and work style.

 

Of course, nothing we do would suit on any sort of trial venue, arena or field, but it gets the job done for us with reduced stress on all around, and that's the goal.

 

I'd love to watch dogs working brace, in competition or not. They are amazing.

[Tea]

That's cool that Ian does that! I did not know that. Wish he was closer!

[Alfreda]

Of course in the arena, Roscoe and June would have been able to read every subtlety of Roy's body language and Roy, Roscoe and June were bonded in a way few teams are but that said, I never saw anything like it before or since.

Would have loved to have seen that.

 

Those are all wonderful descriptions of teamwork and personalities!

 

I only have meager, non-herding examples- but it's been interesting to watch my BC and his best buddy divide the labor when a ball is involved. One initiates with a human, the other goes outfield, then drops it 10 ft out on the return, then the first fetches it the rest of the way. When alone, each dog does it all. When they're together they have little interest in playing with 2 separate balls. They want to work the same ball together.

 

In trial competition, how is brace work judged? Does the judge look mostly at the sheep? It would be hard to watch 2 dogs at the same time...

[stockdogranch]

I used to use two dogs for setout, doing as Julie describes: one to push, the other to flank and keep the sheep from scooting too far downfield. I always put mine of different flank whistles, so I have four different sets of whistles I use. When a dog is young, I decide which set to pair them with. Although I haven't had a pair of dogs that work well together for some years, I am hoping that will change soon. We occasionally have a brace class at a cattle trial, although we don't usually run it strictly as a "true" brace with the proper rules.

A

[Sue R]

Whether you are working one dog or two on a packet of sheep in a trial, it is the movement of the sheep that is the primary thing that is judged. If the dogs are right, the sheep will be right, and points won't be taken off. I am sure the judge has the discretion to delete points if one dog is doing more than his share of the work and the other is not doing his share. just like a judge can take points off if the handler is doing work that the dog should be doing.

 

I hope some one who knows will give the correct answer.

[Liz P]

I ran in a buddy brace trial this summer that consisted of 2 handlers and 2 dogs. The rule was the dogs could not cross, IOW, they had to choose a side and stay on it. They also divided between the pen and shed, one dog doing each. We had never worked together before, but our dogs did end up taking the wrong commands at times. Overall though our dogs did well and honored one another. I thought it was a blast and would do it again.

 

The same trial offered brace as well. I had entered, but the other teams scratched so the class was dropped.

[stockdogranch]

Yes--I've run some of those buddy classes before (on cattle), and they are fun. I remember one many years ago where an Open handler/dog team was paired with a Novice handler/dog team. We had to decide ahead of the run who was to do which obstacles, and it was a blast. I like when we have different things to do at trials. This past weekend was a good example...

 

We had a "double lift" the second day of a cattle trial. Once the first set were picked up and taken through (or missed) the fetch panels, then they waved for the second set to be set. They were set from the same spot, and we did not have to do specified directions of outruns, so it was not a "true" double lift, but still we had to stop the dog, give a look back and bring the second set to join the first and complete the course with the combined groups. It was fun. We usually do a true double lift for the Final go of Open at our NCA Finals (which will be held at Meeker this June).

 

Sue, I believe for a true brace, each dog has to stay on its own side, starting with the outrun. So no crossing or doing the other dog's work. On cattle we never get quite that tricky, but running two together is a lot of fun.

A

[juliepoudrier]

Interesting conversation. When I work a brace I don't require them to stay on their own side, especially when moving large groups, where there's a strong draw, or when it's a large group that wants to break in one direction. In all those cases, I find it useful for both dogs to have a presence at that pressure point (for example, when putting the Bluegrass lambs into the set out pens--it's a place they don't want to go and there's typically a direction they will break toward, and that's where I will move both dogs to apply pressure).

 

I can see where keeping dogs on their own sides makes sense in a trial situation, and there are times, even with the above mentioned example, where I'd have one dog pushing from behind and the other covering the expected attempted escape route(s), so they'd be on their own side, but I won't hesitate to put both in the same spot if the stock require it.

 

I'd love to do a buddy brace. I think that would be fun. Then again, although my dogs work well together, I might have trouble getting them to work with someone else's dog on the field because of all the set out we do and the fact that my dogs will honor the other dog because that's what they do at set out.

 

J.

[stockdogranch]

I agree, Julie--for practical work, the dogs need to be wherever they need to be, and often, like when dog breaking cattle, they need to be on the same side dealing with the same issue (whatever that issue is).

A

[Sue R]

My dogs don't stay on one side - each works very differently and so they tend to "take on" different aspects of the work. Dan is pushy and works to move those cattle that need moving along. Celt is more subtle and tends to work the sides and animals that drift out of the flow in a less obvious manner. The marvel to me is how each dog is not only aware of the cattle in all their ages and stages, and responding with what needs doing, but also aware of the other dog (and Ed as leader and me as the third dog) and working, balancing, and responding to all of us as a fluid group in motion.

 

Amazing.

[Liz P]

I've worked my dogs with others plenty of times in the past. Generally they will choose their own role and stick with it. While loading a trailer one dog might be pushing them in while the other tucks the sides and keeps them from bolting around. If fetching a large group they might naturally choose their own side and stick with it.

 

Maybe if brace and buddy brace were offered more often as a fun class at trials we could eventually get enough people interested to offer it as a real class like they do overseas.

[Alfreda]

That would be cool if brace and/or buddy brace were offered as a fun class or even a serious one!

 

Years ago I met some range shepherds working in high summer pasture. Some of them had several dogs and said they trained one dog in Basque commands, another in English, and a third in Spanish...also all on different whistles.

 

Ran across this vid of a run of the 2014 International Brace Championship-

[Donald McCaig]

Nice idea. How hosts already overbooked and desperate to get through the dogs w/o headlights may respond I cannot predict

 

Donald McCaig

[Maja]

I am a great fan of Ricky's!