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slowing down a fast dog?


garpur
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hi everybody

I´m new, been reading this forum for a long time but first time posting.

 

I have a dog who pushes the sheep way too fast, I have trouble slowing him down. He tends to be fine when he has been working for some time, but if we are just herding sheep a short distance and also always in the beginning, he will push to fast. I will make him lay down and then I tell him to move in closer, he tends to run towards the sheep instead of going slowly.

Any advice to get him to slow down a little?

 

I hope I was able to make myself understandable, English is not my first language

feeling hopeful

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There are times when lack of confidence in the dog shows up by them going fast. IS he using His movement to get the sheep moving? Does he have to be near the sheep before they begin to move off him?

 

Another possibility is he is simply having a good time and is excited about working therefor he moves quick and that worries the sheep so they move fast. Putting him on a line line and working on his pace and keeping him calm may be the way to go. Some dogs get into a habit of moving fast and pushing hard and then it is harder for them to learn to slow down and use their eye more. Try not to use a lie down to control his speed. That is using his stop as a correction and you dont want to do that. Use an AAHHH or HEY and teach him a slow down command like Steady or Time. This can be taught using a line.

 

Hope that helps

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Your username (a typical Icelandic dog name) makes me wonder, are you Icelandic (Þistilfjörður would be a wild guess)?

 

In that case the flightiness of especially young Icelandic sheep could be contributing to your problem.

 

I have been in the vicious circle of trying to train an anxious pressure sensitive young dog on jittery fast sheep. Dog is afraid to loose them, speeds up, sheep get nervous. also running faster, and so on. Not easy.

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thank you denice for your advice, that makes a lot of sense. I will try this next time :) He is mostly very excited I think

 

Smalahundur, I was wondering how long it would take you to figure out who I am hehe, not very long apparantly :) Just the username gave me away. How is it going in Vopnafjörður?

 

And yes flighty sheep are a part of my problem especially with the younger dog, but since this flock is so fresh, I just started using them, they will calm down after a few times. I use the older dog to school them a little before I start with the younger one.

 

ahhh and talking about flighty sheep, I got so mad with them on Saturday, they saw me with a dog from a looong distance, decided to take a swim over the river over to the neighbors. So now my sheep are roaming their land. I´m waiting for horses to be shod /shoed? so I can go and get them back. I couldn´t use my practise sheep from last fall since I had been using them for too long and they just stopped moving at all.

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Yeah, not that many Garpurs around, small country . A bit of detective work in "Snati" also helped ;) .

 

It is very wet here, but it won´t be much different at your place, "heyskapur" has to wait. Not so bad for us (for the time being...); we are very busy getting our farm ready for moving in, not long now (we hope...).

 

Good luck getting your training sheep back (are you using yearlings too?)

No chance of getting them on foot, with your older dog?

Btw isn´t that the tri I saw some time ago at your place?

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Actually, farmers here are hoping to start "heyskapur" today, let´s see. At this very moment they are consulting each other on the matter :) But yes it has been very wet and the land is also very wet as I found out yesterday when I went to get my escapees. The horses would sink down in the mud where usually they wouldn´t at this time.

No, I was not about to go get them on foot, I´m too slow and it would have taken all day for me to get them home. The neighbor also has sheep with lambs in that area so I would have ended up taking them with me. And with the older dog, he doesn´t listen that well to me anymore so I don´t like to take him with me, I just use him to school my practice sheep for the younger one. He decided that SO is his handler and just plain stopped taking notice of me, very frustrating since I have spent a lot of time in training him, but on the other hand, SO owns him and can use him so I can just use time on training my own dog now instead.

And yes the older dog is probably the tri you saw at my place (although we had another tri at the same time as this one 3 years ago)

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  • 2 weeks later...

There are times when lack of confidence in the dog shows up by them going fast. IS he using His movement to get the sheep moving? Does he have to be near the sheep before they begin to move off him?

 

Another possibility is he is simply having a good time and is excited about working therefor he moves quick and that worries the sheep so they move fast. Putting him on a line line and working on his pace and keeping him calm may be the way to go. Some dogs get into a habit of moving fast and pushing hard and then it is harder for them to learn to slow down and use their eye more. Try not to use a lie down to control his speed. That is using his stop as a correction and you dont want to do that. Use an AAHHH or HEY and teach him a slow down command like Steady or Time. This can be taught using a line.

 

Hope that helps

Denice,

 

Can you please go into more detail about why using the lie down to slow the dog down is a bad idea? How is the lie down any more of a correction than a AAHHHH or a Hey? Sounds like a correction to me? I'm just very interested in your response and trying to learn. THANKS!

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Denice,

 

Can you please go into more detail about why using the lie down to slow the dog down is a bad idea? How is the lie down any more of a correction than a AAHHHH or a Hey? Sounds like a correction to me? I'm just very interested in your response and trying to learn. THANKS!

 

Clearly I'm not Denice, ;) but I've seen that sometimes using "lie down" too frequently to slow a fast dog down can actually backfire. Imagine we have a dog who is pushing so he gets a stern lie down, and the sheep move further away from him. Then when he's released, his first response may be to eagerly pop to his feet and try to hurry and catch up with the sheep. Rather than calming, it could create more tension and make the release from the lie down more explosive, because he's anxious about the sheep getting away.

 

Anyhow, that's my two cents, Denice may have a different observation. :)

 

~ Gloria

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Dear Mr. Garpur,

 

Young dogs want to control the sheep, get excited, push them too hard, scatter them, regather, push too hard . . . .

 

If you down the dog he will see the sheep escaping and jump up as soon as he can and push too hard again.

 

You need to convince the dog that a better (less frightening to the sheep) approach will control them better. This is counterintuitive to the dog so it'll take some time. Two tools I use: instead of a down, I'll let the dog stay on his feet but correct with a harsh "Ackk" which causes the dog to draw up. As soon as he starts pushing again, another sharp "Ackk". You will make him uncertain but that's a good thing here because uncertainty will slow him down.

 

Also useful is the Too Wide flank, where you push the dog off contact with "KEEP away" or "Come OUT". When your dog can cricle your sheep so far off they aren't bothered, you can call him on "Walk on" and teach him the precise point sheep will move off him, calmly and under control.

 

Donald

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I feel there should be a difference between a correction and a command like asking for a lie down. A lie down should not be used as a correction. It is a slight difference till you see it and watch how the dog changes when you and they understand the difference.

 

If you are in the habit of slowing down a dog with a lie down it will be a jerky drive / fetch. Dog stops, sheep slow, dog gets up, sheep move faster so you stop the dog again. He is not learning pace or control of sheep or himself. He is not learning to think or respect the sheep. He is stopping because he is told so you are using a stop to correct his speed and pace and control him. The other thing can happen that as soon as the dog downs the sheep try to run because you have released them. then the dog runs to catch it and you down again. The dog will begin to not trust you or the sheep and not want to stop. The dog is anxious and makes the sheep worry, some sheep will turn and face a dog like this because they dont trust him.

If you watch a dog that walks up on sheep and has the right pace and attitude it is slow, at least rather consistent pace and the sheep are calm and moving easily. So if the dog is to fast or pushing to hard I correct for That with a "aaahh' or hey or its name.

 

My goal with any correction is Always to get the dog Thinking not necessarily stopping.

 

A stronger eyed dog might indeed lie down when corrected but I did not ask or make it and usually i ask it up right away so it knows that is not want I wanted. You can actually control every footfall when a dog is tuned in to you and the sheep with simply speaking to him. Now I may do this every once in a blue moon I dont have to one they figure it out. You do need sheep that will cooperate and a small enough space they are not going to escape or run over the hill when training. I start with correction them put a word to slowing him down - I use time, take time, some use easy or steady. I also start teach teaching it on a fetch rather than drive with most dogs. Fetching is natural and they accept the slower pace easier because they are calmer and confident. Driving they can get worried about a correction so you have to be aware of that. I never start driving worried about direction or pace, just drive and dont get to the head and turn the sheep. Then I would work on direction and pace and usually walk along with them so I am to encourage as soon as they need it.

 

I think one KEY to whatever your commands are is to make them sound like what you want. I have heard some people yell time, easy ect and it sounds fast and anxious. Same with the lie down. it can be fast and tense. If you slow it down drop it in tone and make it sound like you want the action the dog responds better.

You know that Scottish / Wesh lie dd oo w ww nn you hear on trial fields - it feels like a down. People adjust whistles tones and length but rarely think of their voice and the effect it has. Actually I think dogs respond better to voice if used correctly. I think conveying emotion is a good thing if we are sending the right message. Tone can say I coming out and kicking you butt if you dont listen and it can say you are doing good or your on the right track listen and I will help you.

 

It is all a balance. Balance between correction and encouragement and allowing the dog time to think and figure thing out rather than just giving commands. We are very guilty of wanting it all Now. Teaching a word for slowing a dog down is not different than teaching a dog a Keep and Out for more square flanks it adds another level to the training and gives you more options to help the dog and sheep when needed.

 

Hopefully that all makes sense if not I will go into more details if you like, just ask

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I try to use a correction and then always follow it with more info. I use a correction to say Nope Wrong, then instruction - this is want. How hard the correction depends on how Wrong the action was. Running after sheep and gripping gets a harder correction that to tight or to fast. a 4 yr old is going to get more of a correction than a one year yr old. For a young dog a correction is just no, then I help them. I try not to use lie down to stop the wrong action unless I have to. Sometimes I let it go and position myself better to help them next time. I honestly do not teach a down to my young dogs before working. They have a good recall before going to sheep and a good recall on sheep before going to a larger space than a round pen. I trust them before going to a pasture or use a long line.

 

Like I said I want my dog thinking all the time. I want to teach respect of me before we ever hit the pasture or round pen gate, then respect the sheep. Then the basics are in place to do anything. Some dogs are easier than others, some much easier but it all starts with respect and your relationship. If they have been corrected off sheep and followed by more instruction of what you want it is in place once instincts kick in and you go to sheep. They all have things that are easy for them and others that are tougher or less natural. We just have to figure out how to help them with the things they struggle with and be smart enough not to mess with those things they naturally do well

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  • 1 month later...

I haven´t checked the forum for a long time now as I have been very busy at the farm. But some very nice discussion and advice, thank you very much

 

and talking about the voice. I have a very weak voice and always envy those who can be heard a long distance. (Not just to dogs but for kids too). A friend of mine always praises her dogs with a "gott hjá þér" meaning "you are doing good". I always thought it sounded weird at first. And I was wondering why she was using that phrase since it is long instead of what many and myself included were using a short word "gott" meaning "good". That is when I realized that when you say "gott hjá þér" you can not say it in a correcting sounding voice, only in a calm and praising voice. But the short word "gott" you can scream and use an angry voice even if you don´t mean too. Also I found out I wasn´t using it just for praise but also to tell the dog to stop - so no wonder the dog was confused! But that is a long time ago, I don´t do that anymore, I think, I hope, I will be thinking of this next time we go out for practice.

Our older dog doesn´t listen very well to me anymore, but if I lower my voice and speak in a very calm way he tends to listen better.

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