Frustrated! (Mini rant)

[larryfoster]

Bear is only 5 months old.

Yet, he is on his 3rd round of worm treatment since we got him.

 

He was treated for roundworms shortly after we got him.

Then tapeworms.

Yesterday, my daughter noticed worms in his stool.

 

Tested positive for both roundworms and tapeworms.

 

It seems his breeder didn't worm the puppies.

She did get his first shots.

Or, at least, she provided us with a shot record.

 

After this round of worm treatments, the vet recommends giving Sentinel for heartworms once a month forever.

 

Heart worm is not real prevalent in my area and I haven't treated any of my dogs for that in over 40 years of dog ownership.

 

He is supposed to be a pure breed but doesn't look like a BC.

I can register him with the Continental Kennel Club.

 

Never heard of them before this.

His father was registered with the American Canine Assoc.

Never heard of them, either.

 

He's a real sweet boy and now part of our family.

But, my daughter and I wonder if we were scammed

[Maralynn]

Those are pretty suspicious "registries"

 

But even if the breeder wormed them, you need to do it again. Pups have worms and pick them up easily. You have to worm them regardless of if the breeder wormed them.

 

As far as looking BC, well, there are SOOOO many different looks to the breed that it can be hard to judge on look alone. I'd be much more suspicious based on the weird registries than I would on looks.

[Maja]

Lots of worming pills are wimpy. And many don't even touch tapeworms.

[gcv-border]

Agree with Maralynn.

 

It is common for pups to be wormed at least 2 or 3 times before they leave the dam. But because pups explore their world by taste, among the other senses, they commonly eat dirt. Because of that, they become re-infested with parasites. It is a puppy thing.

 

Where do you live (state)? Heartworms have spread over the years. Because I live in VA, I give heartworm meds year round due to the mild climate.

 

Not sure why you are questioning the vet's advice, but if it is economic, compare the fairly minimal coat of monthly heartworm meds to the high cost of treating a heartworm infection.

[GentleLake]

There's a lot going on in your mini rant.

 

One round of deworming very often isn't enough. That's no one's fault, just the nature of the life cycle of worms. Adult worms are usually killed off by the anthelmintics but not necessarily the eggs. So you have to treat at intervals for a while so that the newly hatched eggs are killed off. Rinse and repeat.

 

Another thing that can happen is that a puppy or dog will be reinfected because the eggs are in the environment. It happens regularly with round worms. Eggs are shed in the stool, puppy (or dog) steps in poop, licks feet and wallah! Dog is reinfected.

 

The life cycle of tapeworms includes fleas as a host. If there are infected fleas around and the dog bites at and ingests the flea, guess what? Tapeworm infestation.

 

Then there's the fact that not all anthelmintics kill all types of worms. If the medicine you used didn't cover the type of worms present, it's not because it didn't work. It may not ever work on certain types of worms.

 

It's your choice whether or not to give a HW preventative. HW isn't very prevalent in my area either, so I choose not to give HW preventative. I do test annually, though, just in case. But it's your choice to make based on what you know and what your comfort level is.

 

As far as the registries, no, these aren't mainstream registries for border collies. That doesn't necessarily mean that the puppy's not purebred. There are lots and lots of purebred border collies and dogs of other breeds who aren't registered.

 

Looks? Well, given the enormously wide variation in the looks of border collies and the fact that until fairly recently they weren't bred for a standard appearance but rather for working ability, it's hard to say what your dog should look like. In fact, what a border collie should look like is antithetic to the purpose and history of the breed. I've seen some border collies I never would have guessed were purebreds based on their appearance. But when they worked sheep there was absolutely no mistaking what they were.

 

Besides, your puppy's only 5 months old. You won't know what he looks like until he's older. From your avatar picture though, he looks a border collie to me.

[GentleLake]

I'm not sure where Peach Hill, PA is -- didn't come up on Google. But large areas of PA don't have a very high incidence of HW.

 

Here's the most recent map: https://www.heartwormsociety.org/images/incidence-maps/IncidenceMap2013.pdf

 

I'm 5 mi. north of PA in the southern tier of NY where incidence is also low. My vet just commented on this to me and also to someone else I know just recently. The only HW they're seeing is in dogs brought in from the South or who've visited there.

[larryfoster]

Thanks, everyone for the replies.

 

In case I didn't give enough information, all worm treatments were vet prescribed.

Other dogs, in the past, I would just buy the stuff at Tractor Supply and treat them, myself.

 

Just as a point of reference, this is my 5th dog over the last 40+ years and second BC.

 

gcv-border, I'm not questioning the vet's advice so much as frustrated that I may have a damaged dog.

I did ask the vet about the heart worm med due to the low prevalence.

I was told that it works on other stuff, too, and because of the recurring problems, it was sort of a precaution for them.

 

Maralynn, I agree but feel this may be worse due to no worming by the breeder.

 

Maja, I had the vet prescribe all the treatments.

 

Also, the vet did not indicate that I would need to recheck and seemed surprised that Bear continues to have problems and upped the protocol.

 

"Peach Hill" is seldom on maps. It's a small area with a Cowansville mailing address.

We're about 50 miles north east of Pittsburgh.

 

Gentle Lake, that is the other BC in my avatar.

To me, that's what a collie looks like.

 

The collie in the avatar came from near you.

Randolph, NY.

 

My daughter wants to DNA test him.

 

As far as looks, a couple weeks ago we attended our first trial to watch.

Lots of different looking dogs.

 

There's just some things that seem different.

[Tommy Coyote]

When I got Zeke he had a terrible case of tape worms. I am not sure what the vet gave but it was 1 pill and that was the end of

the tape worms.

But he was tested for heartworm and I put him on heartworm meds and flea and tick meds immediately. Those killed the fleas that were causing the tapes. And the heartworm meds also take care of round worms and whips and hooks. I still have the dogs checked for worms when they get their yearly heartworm ck. But they are always negative. KC is a pretty high risk heartworm region. The Missouri River goes straight down to the Gulf and that heightens our risk.

 

Can you put a picture of him up?

[Debbie Meier]

Well, there are some situations where you have to switch dewormers because the worms have developed resistance. Also, many, including vets will use SafeGuard/Panacur and only have the owner give it one day, well one day won't cut it, needs to be given three days in a row.

 

As far as the tape worm, that is covered by a different dewormer then the conventional ones, a 5 month old pup could have picked up at any point, not just at the breeders.

 

With our own pups, we deworm every two weeks from the age of 2 weeks old on through 16 weeks of age and then they go to once a month, so having been dewormed a few times since getting the pup wouldn't be unusual. Many environments have a good population of roundworm eggs, so pup can get reinfected at any point.

 

I won't say that you were scammed unless the breeder has stated that the dog was going to be ABCA now you find that the dog is not. If no one inquired on the registry at time of purchase, well then that's not being scammed either. I doubt that a test will help you determine if the dog is actually a border collie since border collies do not trace back to the same few dogs, the breed is made up of different breeds over the years.

[GentleLake]

You're not terribly far from where I grew up then, Altoona. Randolph's not really close to me now -- I'm in the Binghamton area, north of Scranton.

 

Roundworms and tapeworms aren't usually too damaging to dogs. They feed off of the food the dogs are eating and as long as the dog is well fed don't usually put too much stress on the host, unlike hooks and whips, which feed off the dog's blood.

 

As far as meds, there are different kinds of HW preventatives. If I'm not mistaken, Sentinel combines more than one chemical to provide a range of parasites it covers. None of my dogs, present or past, have had intestinal parasites for many, many years, so I don't see the sense in putting toxic chemicals into them for things they don't get. Same even with the HW meds because I'm in a low incidence area. I wouldn't use anything for fleas because again, my dogs haven't had problems, but ticks are a major problem where I live, Lyme is increasing rapidly and 2 of my dogs have gotten it, and none of the effective tick preventatives come without a separate flea chemical.

 

As far as looks, again, I've seen some border collies that I'd never have guessed from looking at them that they were purebreds. Given the registries you mention, if that's what the breeder you got your pup from uses, maybe there is cause for suspicion. Bear in mind that the DNA tests aren't always accurate though, so no guarantee that the results you get from one would prove or disprove anything.

 

I'd love to see a picture of your pup too.

 

ETA: There are other things you can use to control worms, too. Food grade diatomaceous earth is one. The pup I adopted earlier in the year had had only one worming at the rescue. Rather than repeat it I gave DE for a month. He had no worms when tested.

 

This is a good time of year to worm with pureed fresh pumpkin seeds, too. 3 tablespoons a day for three days for dogs. Totally non-toxic for the dogs.

[waffles]

ACA and Continental Kennel Club are typically backyard breeder and mill registries. They are 'junk' registries where you basically pay money for a piece of paper. The CKC just asks people to fill out an application-you could register a hamster with them and they would not know.

 

Breeders will pay the money to join these registries so they can ask more money for puppies from people who don't know about dog registries. I have no clue if the breeder you bought from was trying to scam you or not, but just stating my knowledge and experience about these registries in general.

 

It does not mean your border collie is not a border collie.

 

I also live an hour north of Randolph and actually use Randolph vet for all of our surgery needs because of how affordable they are. I don't use any HW preventative. It is a choice for you to make.

[larryfoster]

 

 

[GentleLake]

The pics don't show Bear's entire body, but from what I can see he looks border collie to me.

[Liz P]

Heartworm prevention medicine is for more than HW. It is also used to prevent many intestinal parasites. Interceptor Plus and Sentinel Spectrum prevent tapeworms in addition to several others. Some dogs, who constantly reinfect with intestinal parasites, should be on them to keep the worms at bay.

I will say that the incidence of HW in the northeast is going up fast with the influx of rescue dogs from the southern USA. We are even seeing a big spike in infected dogs born and raised in the northeast. I suspect that map of HW incidence in the USA will be very different looking once they update it.

 

As others have said, those are puppy mill registries. No ethical breeders I know use them. Wouldn't trust their accuracy at all.

 

Any pup can have parasites and keep getting infected with them. Your yard is likely full of roundworm eggs, so without monthly HW pills I would expect regular reinfection. Tapeworms come from fleas but also from eating mammals like mice, voles and rabbits. I've owned plenty of pups, and adult dogs, who liked to snack on them.

[larryfoster]

Thanks for all the info from everyone.

 

This time, he is taking Droncit for tapeworms. 3 tabs one time.

 

We have been giving him a topical flea med starting about 5 or 6 weeks ago; right after his first bout with tape worms.

Because it was so late in the season, we just picked up some Sentry from Tractor Supply to get us into winter.

It may not be working real well.

 

We are using Panacor for the roundworms.

It's a 5 day treatment.

 

 

 

Gentle Lake, I hate putting stuff in my dogs when we won't use stuff on ourselves.

Internal parasites are rare for me, too.

In the past, we seldom had to treat for them.

Altoona is about 70 miles east of me.

 

Debbie Meier, thanks for the info on a DNA test.

Supposedly, they advertise they can determine Border Collies.

This is what we were looking at.

https://www.amazon.com/Mars-Veterinary-Wisdom-Panel-Identification/product-reviews/B01EHX2BH0/ref=cm_cr_dp_qt_hist_one?ie=UTF8&filterByStar=one_star&reviewerType=all_reviews&showViewpoints=0

 

Maybe scammed is not the right term.

The ad said "Registerable" and when we went to see him, found out it was Continental.

 

He is a really big boy.

He weighed 34 lbs. yesterday at 5 months.

My 3 yo female only weighs that!

[Liz P]

Those DNA tests to determine breed are worthless. The AVMA did a study. Pretty amusing reading the results.

 

I have a purebred BC who was 34 lbs at 16 weeks, 50 lbs now at 2 years old. His sire and dam were both under 40 lbs. It happens. Doesn't mean your pup is not purebred.

[Debbie Meier]

they didn't lie, he was registerable, just not with ABCA. If you had wanted a ABCA registered pup, that's when you should have walked away. Many that are breeding pet / companion dogs don't really see much value in having dogs registered with ABCA, especially if they are breeding dogs that didn't have papers when they got them, any registry will do.

 

With regard to the roundworms, if your not going to put him on a monthly dewormer I would plan on deworming him every two weeks for the next month or so. Takes that to break the cycle, the dewormer only kills the worms in his intestine, not those that are still migrating or are in egg form that were ingested. Deworming him every 2 weeks for a bit should get him cleaned back up other wise your likely to get another positive fecal in a month or so. You can pick up SafeGuard goat wormer at the farm store, same stuff as the liquid Panacur. About $19 for 125 ml, same dosage as liquid Panacur too.

[larryfoster]

You're right, Debbie.

We should have walked but Bear's boyish puppy charm won us over.

 

We weren't knowledgeable in all these various dog registries.

 

He doesn't do things that other collies I've seen do, I guess, instinctively.

For example, what I call the collie crouch.

 

But, he is a sweet boy, pretty intelligent and, now, part of the family.

 

Thamls for the tip on the goat wormer

[Maralynn]

FWIW, many of the cheaper spot on treatments don't work all the well in my experience. I've used Advantix for the past couple years with good results. I've also used the Absorbine Ultra Shield (black bottle at TSC, horse spray that is also approved for dogs) and Zodiac spray with good results. You might be able to buy a single dose of advantix or frontline from your vet.

[GentleLake]

Not all border collies do the border collie crouch, especially when they're not on livestock. Some don't even do it then.

[Donald McCaig]

Dear Mr. Foster,

 

The best way to know if a dog is a Border Collie is to wait until he's 6-8 months old and take him to sheep.

 

Donald McCaig

[larryfoster]

That is the real proof, isn't it?

[moosikins]

Don't bother with the DNA test, they're a complete waste of money. I know with 100% certainty that Cal's mother is a yellow lab. Yet Cal's results show she's a Standard Poodle/Shar-Pei...Hah! Not a trace of BC or Lab in her, evidently.

 

Lies!

 

Thanks, everyone for the replies.

 

In case I didn't give enough information, all worm treatments were vet prescribed.

Other dogs, in the past, I would just buy the stuff at Tractor Supply and treat them, myself.

 

Just as a point of reference, this is my 5th dog over the last 40+ years and second BC.

 

gcv-border, I'm not questioning the vet's advice so much as frustrated that I may have a damaged dog.

I did ask the vet about the heart worm med due to the low prevalence.

I was told that it works on other stuff, too, and because of the recurring problems, it was sort of a precaution for them.

 

Maralynn, I agree but feel this may be worse due to no worming by the breeder.

 

Maja, I had the vet prescribe all the treatments.

 

Also, the vet did not indicate that I would need to recheck and seemed surprised that Bear continues to have problems and upped the protocol.

 

"Peach Hill" is seldom on maps. It's a small area with a Cowansville mailing address.

We're about 50 miles north east of Pittsburgh.

 

Gentle Lake, that is the other BC in my avatar.

To me, that's what a collie looks like.

 

The collie in the avatar came from near you.

Randolph, NY.

 

My daughter wants to DNA test him.

 

As far as looks, a couple weeks ago we attended our first trial to watch.

Lots of different looking dogs.

 

There's just some things that seem different.

[moosikins]

Also, can we see pics??

[GentleLake]

The best way to know if a dog is a Border Collie is to wait until he's 6-8 months old and take him to sheep.

 

That may not hold true for a sporter, pet or ACK border collie . . . though we could argue, as I would, that if the dog's lost its instinct it's not really a border collie.