Throwing up undigested chicken bone?

[Mudpups]

This morning Taj chucked up an undigested chicken bone - it was the big bone from a raw chicken wing I had given him last night. I'm not sure what to be most concerned about - the choking hazard or the fact that he hadn't chewed it at all Should I not give him wings anymore and progress to carcasses/backs or thigh/rib pieces (what about drumsticks or are the leg bones to hard?).

 

He is 9 weeks old and has been eating raw chicken wings for a week, plus some chicken mince (bones and gizzards etc ground in). I am concerned about getting the right balance of nutrients so have also continued with premium kibble and dog meat loaf (Tuckertime) for one of his three meals as he was fed by his breeder and feeding raw the other two meals. (I use kibble for training rewards at the moment).

 

I have no concerns about feeding an adult dog raw and going by their condition, but as a pup grows so fast, a week can make a difference I would think. I know that feeding RAW is not an exact science, and long term can work it out, but I would love to hear from anyone else that is experienced with Raw feeding from young pups.

 

I have tried searching Raw feeding for puppies but the search function limits me - does anyone feed exclusive raw for puppies and if so how frequently do you introduce a new source? (If this has been covered, please just point me in the right direction;) I can do chicken (pieces and ground bone in), lamb and beef easily, as well as the occasional kangaroo meat. Plus regular organ meats (heart, liver, kidneys, maybe tongue) that i can get from a butcher. And tin sardines and eggs.

 

Thanks!

[shatchp]

We feed ground raw meaty bones (chicken, turkey, game hen, beef, etc.) from a local company that sells in frozen 2lb chubs. We mix in cooked/mashed sweet potato and pureed raw vegetables (kale, parsely, leftovers...) An egg here and there. Very convenient. I usually toss a raw chicken neck, back or foot on top.

 

I think a raw diet with a variety of meats and pureed raw vegetables, with some fish oil and other supplements tossed in here and there, provides an appropriate array of nutrients over time. For growing puppies, I've been told to double the daily meat intake...for our 35 lb, 8 month old dog, thats around 16 ounces a day. It might be around half that for a dog half his weight.

 

I personally wouldn't feed bigger bones out of fear of choking, although some may do so with no problems. We started our dog raw at 6 months. My vet fed his kelpie raw at 12 weeks or so, when he got her.

 

Also, I've been told to avoid mixing raw and kibble because they digest differently and at different rates. That's my two cents... FYI, I'm still learning here...others will speak from more experience.

[Guest WoobiesMom]

I fed raw with bones ground in when I was doing raw because of this fear. When I was reading up on it, I did read that some people felt feeding kibble blocked the dog's stomach's ability to quickly process raw bones and could (in their opinions) cause a blockage of the bone material. Maybe it would be better to feed raw one day and kibble the next to allow more time for the kibble to clear the digestive system before the raw comes in. Just a thought.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

I've done some serious research and thinking about the kibble and bone theory and it's my totally amateurish opinion that this is an unfounded fear. Under normal circumstances, an animal that is geared towards eating trash will consume lots of different things that require lots of different digestive, uh, my non-technical vocabulary is failing me here. What I'm trying to say is that dogs eat lots of different things normally anyway and if you give their systems a chance to adjust, they'll adapt to variety and even benefit from it.

 

I think this theory comes from the "grain is evil" mentality - but in my dogs that handle grains well, it doesn't seem to matter whether they get their raw meat or raw meaty bones with their kibble meals or twelve hours apart, or twenty four hours apart. I do feed two different meals and usually feed kibble in the AM and RMBs at night, with a small frozen raw meat meatball in between, but that is for convenience and to space out how they get their energy. And sometimes it doesn't work that way at all - some days I don't have time for seperate feedings and they'll get everythign at night - you'd think then I'd see undigested bone the next day, or they'd get sick from a bug they picked up from the meat being "stuck" - but it all works out in the end. And from a biological vewipoint, it makes more sense that the gi doesn't switch that drastically from one mode to another in reaction to a single meal.

 

I'd keep a very careful eye on the pupper. Vomiting in baby puppies can be a symptom of much more serious illness. However, if he's free feeding he may have just overeaten, so I'd give it one more chance and then off to the vet we'd go if he did it again.

[Mudpups]

I have been feeding the kibble separately having read similar advice elsewhere, but I have to admit that the logic to me points towards Rebeccas conclusions as well, although I am not taking chances at such a tender age just in case.

 

I do think the vomit this morning was overeating (kibble which came up undigested, and not chewed up) and then getting the zoomies straight away, I should have crated him rather than let him zoom I think. But don't worry I am keeping a close eye on him, his activity and behaviour is totally normal and he hasn't chucked up again today.

 

Added to my dilemma is that he gets runny poops very quickly after having the processed food even though it is high quality food, but poops after RAW meals are firm and nicely formed (eww, but yes I look!), so I am not sure if he is reacting to the processed food, even though he has had the same food since weaning, or if he is reacting/adjusting to raw chicken, or the grass/sand/seeds/leaves that he grabs every time we go outside (even though I am hypervigilant, he still swallows some stuff that I can't fish out quick enough). When we bought him home, his poops were massive and pretty soft, the runny poops now are a lot smaller but similar enough to his original ones, and timing etc indicates that it is most likely the processed food causing it. He was wormed last week as well.

 

I'm not sure whether to continue his currrent diet, put him back on the original kibble/loaf combo or go completely raw so I'm off to do some research to (hopefully he will stay asleep long enough!).

[berocca]

I used to feed Delta's bones and meat to her frozen until she had her adult teeth. Not only does the frozen food numb their gums while teething (which you arent at yet I know) but it also means that they have to chew it as they dont want to swallow something frozen in one go. They quickly learn to chew through their food and eliminates gulping behaviour too.

[Mudpups]

Oh great, thanks for that tip, I have been wondering if it was okay to feed frozen, I will try that and see if it helps him chew a bit better.

[Mudpups]

I have another question since i have been reading how to firm up puppy stools;) I have never seen canned pumpkin down here in Australia, so is it ok to feed home cooked (boiled) and mashed pumpkin?

[berocca]

Ahh you are in the same boat as me lol. I have looked everywhere (Im in Sydney) and nobody has ever heard of canned pumpkin

 

Ive never tried proper pumpkin before. You will find that once you get the raw diet into a routine you wont have a problem with loose stools. I try to feed at least a chicken neck each day as it is the bone that hardens the stools, but even if I dont mine have no problems with looseness. What was he fed before you? At 9 weeks Im assuming you have only had him a week or so which means he may still be cleaning out the system. My dogs had no problems with the changeover to raw as they had been used to having chicken wings etc as a snack. However, my sister's dog Missy had very runny stools for at least a week, probably closer to 2 weeks when she was switched. She was only bout 12 weeks old when my sister got her so its not like she had been fed rubbish for years; some dogs just get messy and others dont.

[Wendy V]

If the pup is gulping the wings, then feed a bigger piece, like a drumstick or thigh. A young pup can make quick work of it. As suggested, feeding frozen will slow a pup down as well. I like to feed MEATY raw bones, and feel that wings just dont have enough meat to them. It's your choice, but you could ditch the kibble, veggies, supplements, etc. and concentrate on meaty raw bones, along with occassional organs meats.

[Guest WoobiesMom]

I think canned pumpkin is cooked and mashed, so I don't see why cooking regular pumpkin wouldn't work. Welcome to the world of mooshy poops! The bane of my existence! LOL I'm still trying to work out the magic combo that's going to make Woobie's poops firm enough to get rid of the anal gland issues we're having! I don't think it's the quality of food but something in the dog because Woobie had soft stools on almost everything, including raw. Good luck!

 

ETA: Part of my choice to go with ground raw w/ground bones has to do with the number of cases my vet spoke of dealing with fishing bones out of dogs' innards, throats, etc. and many of them were raw bones.

[Mudpups]

Well I am pleased to report that we have switched to RAW, added a tablespoon of mashed pumpkin to his meals and Taj is now pooping properly:) So the sloppy poops were either purely because of the premium kibble and meatloaf....or because he was being over fed - daughter filled his Kong with kibble (maybe more than once) without telling me so I didn't adjust his meal size:(.

 

I think the unchewed chicken bone was because I gave him a wing that was a lot smaller than the previous very meaty ones I had given him, I had some very meaty and large chicken necks (look like baby turkey to me!) and I held them the first few times so that he could not scarf them down and he seems to get the chewing message now. Although frozen sounds like it has lots of benefits as well, so I will try that.

 

Just one question - do you feed completely frozen straight out of the freezer or do you partially defrost or dosn't it matter?

 

So I will be slowly introducing new meat RMB and other raw foods with him alot quicker than planned! I have about $40 worth of premium dog food sitting here, so I will try just using the Eukanuba and Advance kibble cut into four pieces for limited training treats and see if that loosens his poops, or if he can handle it in small doses. I need something for training treats, so if that dosn't work will probably try hotdogs cut up. I do have freeze dried liver for treats but I don't think I can give him too much of that at this stage.

 

Berocca, I just boiled and mashed regular pumpkin, nothing added. Taj actually LOVES it, will scarf it down before he tackles his raw chicken. Interestingly enough, his grass consumption yesterday was lower, which may have been related to the fibre in the pumpkin?

 

Thanks for all the advice everyone!

[Wendy V]

Just one question - do you feed completely frozen straight out of the freezer or do you partially defrost or dosn't it matter?

 

I buy chicken leg quarters from Walmart in the 10 lb bag. I place a bag in a medium sized upright cooler every night after feeding the gang and let it defrost some. The top part is thawed, the bottom part is frozen still, but I am able to muscle apart the pieces. Some dogs get thawed chicken, others get frozen - it doesn't matter to them.

 

Regarding the chicken necks, I am of the opinion that this is still too boney a piece to serve as a primary meal to a dog/pup. I prefer leg quarters when feeding chicken. I also feed cheap fatty ground beef, whole beef brisket, venison, and cull ewe/lamb, along with some organs meats. I would feed whole fish, if available, as I have no concern over the dogs being able to digest the tiny bones. Healthy dogs do not require veggies, grains, kibble, and supplements. Raw can be simple and cheap, or complicated and expensive - your choice.

 

I would donate the kibble to your local humane society.

 

Good luck to you and your pup.

[berocca]

Haha nah Im lazy and forget to get it out of the freezer, so the dogs get it straight from the freezer. The only time it would be partially defrosted is if it froze with the freezer back stuck in it somehow, in which case I would leave it out until I could pull the bag free, the majority would still be frozen solid though. Even the cat has learnt to eat her meat cold...

[Mudpups]

That makes life so much easier:) And I am so appreciating the added benefit of feeding RAW when it comes to poo patrol;)

[Kitch]

"I used to feed Delta's bones and meat to her frozen until she had her adult teeth. Not only does the frozen food numb their gums while teething (which you arent at yet I know) but it also means that they have to chew it as they dont want to swallow something frozen in one go. They quickly learn to chew through their food and eliminates gulping behaviour too. "

 

Yep, I feed frozen too - I started doing it because I was afraid dublin would gulp down his food, but now I do it out of habit. Actually, since Dublin is such a creature of habit, he looks at me oddly if I give him a meal that isn't frozen and he won't eat it right away.

 

I would definitely add more meat to the meal if you still give wings or neck. You can add some ground meat until you use up your supply of necks and then switch over to chicken thighs or quarters.

 

And Pumpkin truly is a miracle food - it firms things up, gets things moving when they get constipated and seems to help settle their stomach if they have an upset. I always have pumpkin on hand! (Squash and zucchini will work as well).