Border collie coat genetics

[Cumulus Cloud]

Ok, so I've been looking around in Rising Sun Farm's border collies and I see that they may have a planned litter with a slate and a blue merle border collie.

 

slate bc: http://www.risingsun...m/preacher.html

 

blue merle bc: http://www.risingsun....com/aggie.html

 

 

 

I know that merle with merle is asking for disaster and I think I've read somewhere that breeding a blue and white to a blue merle isn't recommended since they are both recessive genes. Is it any different with a slate border collies? Also, what is the difference between a slate and a blue and white bc?

Please educate me on this

 

Not that I am questioning the breeder, I respect them very much, I'm just wondering through all this complicated genetics.

[Gloria Atwater]

For what it's worth, I don't think much of this breeder. She has 18 border collie bitches, alone, and a majority of her dogs are fancy colors. I personally know of two Aussie pups from this breeder who had to be put down at under two years old, due to severe behavioral issues. These pups belonged to two separate, very different owners who each arrived at the same fatal conclusion. There was something wrong in these two pups' brains, and of course, they were bred for color. The heartbreak resulting from this was awful to see.

 

So ... I'm not surprised about this news.

 

~ Gloria

[Smalahundur]

 

Please educate me on this

 

 

I think what Gloria is trying to tell you is run, not walk in the other direction.

[KnottyClarence]

I think that "slate" and "blue" are interchangeable, and this color is solid, containing no merling. It is a very seductive color--I as a newbie 12 years ago saw a "blue", mother of my first border collie, and remember her beauty to this day. Some blues have no hair on their ears, like the one in RS's picture. I've heard the genetics of this color called "double dilute recessive"--at the very least meaning rare. I would have to be exceedingly impressed by the work of a blue these days to be interested in owning one. My first dog, son of the blue mentioned above, had PRA (opthomologist diagnosed), and his mother ended up at a puppy mill ("All colors!!), being bred many many times.

[Alchemist]

Ok, so I've been looking around in Rising Sun Farm's border collies and I see that they may have a planned litter with a slate and a blue merle border collie.

 

slate bc: http://www.risingsun...m/preacher.html

 

blue merle bc: http://www.risingsun....com/aggie.html

 

Not that I am questioning the breeder, I respect them very much, I'm just wondering through all this complicated genetics.

 

I know you aren't asking anyone's opinion of this breeder. But one of the really useful aspects of this forum is in your ability to use the "search" function.

 

If you do so, you will find this thread.

 

It's long, but I think you might find it worth reading.

[NorthfieldNick]

Just FTR, not all blue dogs have issues. It is a trait that requires two copies of a recessive gene, and it does crop up unexpectedly. I have a blue & white dog. When I bought him, I couldn't figure it out, because in his photos, he looked b & w, but dirty. Granted, he was absolutely not bred for color (although I get asked about breeding to him based on it all the time- impossible as he's castrated). Several members here can attest to the fact that he's a fantastic working dog, running semi-successfully in Open locally, but mostly an everyday farm dog. I wouldn't purchase a dog bred to be blue, but it's also not a disqualifier on a purpose-bred, nice working dog. Nick's sire is a tri, his mother a very black b & w. His paternal grandfather threw one other blue pup.

 

ETA: Now that I think about it, I believe there was one other blue pup in Nick's litter of 7. I don't believe either of his parents ever threw another blue pup.

[Rave]

Blue (or slate as some call it) is a Black dog with a Dilute gene. Dilute is a recessive trait and is a separate gene from the Merle gene, so yes you can have a diluted merle dog. Color breeders go ga-ga over the dilute gene, since it creates those rare "candy" colors.

 

Here's more info:

http://www.bryningbordercollies.com/Border-Collie-Colours

[Cumulus Cloud]

Thanks a bunch for the info!

 

Though I wasn't expecting a critique for this breeder, it was much appreciated. Seems like I have lots of learning to do!

Another reason why I love this place

[SS Cressa]

I always thought slate was a light grey while a blue and white was a dark grey. Kind of like you have lilac, reds, and chocolate border collies. Or am i over thinking it?

 

Not sure where a slate merles fits in?.

[juliepoudrier]

People breeding for double receive this or that are just begging for trouble.

 

As Ben notes, s dilute color isn't inherently bad, but when folks start breeding rare color to rare color, they risk combining deletions genes that may be associated with those color genes. For example, there is a form of alopecia associated with dilute. Why would you want to take chances of creating that, or worse?

 

The word above should be deleterious.

 

J.

[juliepoudrier]

And threshold be double recessive above, not receive, damn phone!

[NorthfieldNick]

For example, there is a form of alopecia associated with dilute.

 

Really? I wish Nick had some form of partial alopecia. He has so much hair, it's ridiculous. His nickname is Mr Fluffy Butt. Definitely missed that genetic defect!

[AgileBC's]

I have a slate merle border collie. (And no, I didn't go looking for one, he was a rescue ) His nose leather is blueish/purple and where a normal merle would have black spots, his are gray/dark gray. He does have all the hair on his ears, unlike that other dog on that website. He has been described as a slate merle and a slate blue merle so I really don't think there is a difference between the two.

[Eileen Stein]

I always thought slate was a light grey while a blue and white was a dark grey. Kind of like you have lilac, reds, and chocolate border collies. Or am i over thinking it?

 

Not sure where a slate merles fits in?.

 

No, slate and blue are both usually used to describe the same color. The alleles at the B locus determine whether the dog will be black (BB or Bb) or brown (bb). This brown color is called chocolate by show people and red by working border collie people, and those bb dogs have brown nose leather.

 

The alleles at the D locus determine whether the color of those dogs will be intense or diluted. If the dog has dd at that locus, a BB or Bb dog will appear blue (also called slate), and a bb dog will appear lilac.

 

Just to confuse things more, there is a color that conformation folks call red, but that comes from an entirely different gene locus, the E locus. These dogs, which are generally referred to as ee red or Australian red, have much paler color than the bb dogs, and can have black noses.

 

A slate merle would be BB or Bb at the B locus, dd at the D locus, and Mm at the M (merle) locus.

 

ETA: It just occurred to me that the one time that slate and blue would convey different meanings is when they're used to describe a merle. "Blue merle" is the ordinary term used for a dog who is BB or Bb, DD or Dd, and Mm (in contrast to a "red merle," which would be bb rather than BB or Bb). "Slate merle" is a shorthand way of getting across the fact that this particular blue merle is also dd (double recessive) at the D locus.

[juliepoudrier]

Ben, I doubt it would crop up in the occasional blue dog that shows up in working lines. I was spevifically referring to people who deliberately breed for those colors and therefore concentrate deleterious genes

[workindogs]

Julie

There was a working bred litter here in the PNW that produced some blue pups. I believe a blue bitch had some alopecia....I also knew a blue dog from this litter and he was not afflicted (and Ben....quite fluffy!). This breeding did not intentionally produce blue and blue was unknown in this line until these pups were produced. So the alopecia had nothing to do selectively breeding for blue.

[Liz P]

Ben, I doubt it would crop up in the occasional blue dog that shows up in working lines.

 

It does. I've seen it on both rough and smooth coated blue dogs of entirely working lines. Mostly it just results in a bit of thinning of the hair on the ears, but I have seen one dog that had quite a sparse coat.

[DeltaBluez Tess]

I had two blue pups from a working breeder...I loved the bitch and asked to be on the pup list. She had three blue pups and one or two b/w (?) pups....i was further down the list and got a blue male. The blue female's buyer backed out and since I originally wanted a female, I got her. Both pups had somewhat bare ears....

 

Both parents were outstanding. My pups never made it past PN Level. The male was professionally trained too. Nice pups, great temperements. The blue male ended up at a pet home, being a service dog for a handicapped boy. The bitch, was sold to a handler, who ran her, then sold her to a sheep farm. The third blue pup, to the best of my knowledge, never made it out of PN. The b/w (?) bitch ended up in Open. The breeding was from nice, proven, working lines.

 

I had a lot of people who wanted the blue dogs, most for color breeding. I could have made a *good* profit selling them to a color kennel, so I fixed the male, he went as a pet/service dog and the bitch went at puppy price to a fellow handler. The color folks only wanted them for color and none could care less about their working ability.

 

Now, Ben's dog, Nick....he should be MINE. MINE, MINE!!!!!...he is one heck of a nice dog. Having said that, I guess since I can't have him, I am his god-mother. He is very natural on stock and has a great feel for his stock.

[workindogs]

Diane and I are talking about the same litter. The blue bitch definitely had something missing in her coat....it wasn't so noticeable on the one male. There was also a red pup in that litter (also a surprise). A b/w bitch was kept by the breeder and has run very competively in Open. A b/w dog also went to an Open handler...was ok in PN, moved to Open but struggled there.

[DeltaBluez Tess]

There were two blue males. The one I had had bare ears.The rest of his coat was thicker than the female. The other blue male went to an Open handler also. I forgot about the red pup....have no idea how that dog ended up.....very personable and loving dogs too!

[Cumulus Cloud]

People breeding for double receive this or that are just begging for trouble.

 

As Ben notes, s dilute color isn't inherently bad, but when folks start breeding rare color to rare color, they risk combining deletions genes that may be associated with those color genes. For example, there is a form of alopecia associated with dilute. Why would you want to take chances of creating that, or worse?

 

The word above should be deleterious.

 

J.

 

Yes,

this is what I've been told awhile back from someone.

Thought it was foolish for them (RSF) to consider this breeding, but then again, who am I to question someone that's been breeding for quite awhile now?

Turns out that they aren't as great as I thought they were....

[Cumulus Cloud]

I keep hearing that BC breeders with lots of varying colors in their breeding program are to be avoided.

So what about the hobnob border collies? They have all sorts of colors and it almost seems to me that they breed for certain colors at times too.

They seem to strive for more of the sporty dogs rather then working, but nonetheless, still produce dogs with great temperaments and she cares for the puppies dearly.

 

Is she also considered to be one of those BC breeders to be avoided?

[Rave]

Hobsnob is a sports breeder, so no one here will likely recommend them just for that reason. They are definitely producing a different type of BC than the typical working type you would see at a USBCHA trial. I've also heard they have some aggressive lines, so caveat emptor.

 

You can get a great working bred dog for about 1/3-1/2 of the price of what the highest producing sport breeders are charging.

[Oko]

Besides being a sport breeder, I watched a video of theirs that left me kind of wigged out where one of her dogs is in one of her dog runs and just running back and forth against the fence for no reason, just running and turning and running. It had obviously been at it for a while as the dirt was all overturned where it had been running, it looked like pretty obsessive behavior to me.

 

Can't seem to find the video now, sorry.

 

Just left me with a bad feeling.

[Cynthia P]

I keep hearing that BC breeders with lots of varying colors in their breeding program are to be avoided.

 

That is a red flag to look for. Breeding for anything other than working ability is to be avoided. Having a dog of color isn't a sin (well only sort of ) but breeding it just because it is a "what ever color" and it looked at sheep once isn't good enough