What is a "normal" border collie?

[KF1984]

Hello everyone! I am a first time BC owner who is doing her best with what I am not sure is a "normal" border collie (though it would seem that doesn't exactly exist). I got her at 10 weeks from a humane society; her litter was found abandoned as very young pups and they were bottle fed and raised at a foster home. Given that my husband and I have lots of time for dogs (he typically brings our dogs to work, we are both active, and I was planning on starting an activity such as agility), we decided were up for the border collie "challenge." As a puppy around the house, she has been a delight: learns tricks and obedience commands quickly, learned her "settle on a mat" (off switch), has never chewed or destroyed anything, and is snuggly to boot. However, her quirks slowly started to emerge, and we discovered that we have a dog who is leash reactive to dogs and people, as well as off leash reactive, especially with visitors at home or my husbands work. By "reactive" I mean barking, snarling, lunging, and jumping/nipping. Well, my planned activity of agility soon became replaced with trips to a vet behaviorist, counter conditioning walks with a clicker, and backyard frisbee. I am feeling very defeated as I think things are getting worse (she's 8 months now and we've been working on counter conditioning for about 6 weeks), and the situation is affecting my relationships with my husband and our other dog.

 

I have noticed when I mention this to people they often say, Oh, well that sounds like a border collie alright! And then I am left to wonder, am I just completely clueless about this breed? Is this somewhat normal for border collies whose needs are somehow not being met (with exercise and/or stimulation)? I read people's stories on here and think of how wonderful these dogs seem. And truly, Gypsy is a wonderful dog in so many ways. I have never had a dog bond with me or show me love like her. And yet at the back of my mind I am thinking, can I handle this? Would she be a far better dog with someone with BC experience?

 

So, in addition to venting a little (sorry), I have a question for you experienced owners: What is a "normal" BC? Are they distrustful of strangers but not aggressive? Do they tend to not like new dogs? If they are reactive, do they tend to "chill out" as they get older or get more amped up? Thanks in advance for your responses, I really enjoy reading this board!

[Gloria Atwater]

You're right, it's hard to say what "normal" for a border collie might be! But it's not uncommon for them to be leash reactive or reactive to strange people and strange dogs.

Plus, at her young age, she may be in a "fear period," when it's entirely normal for various things to freak them out. They outgrow it eventually, with management and consistent handling, but it's something to deal with. My Gael went through a couple of fear periods when younger, and all I could do was be patient and help her through it.

Things you might look into are a crate for a "safe" area or den for her while at your hubby's work. Does she have one? If not, a wire crate with a cloth over it or even a soft crate might do. The more chances she has to retreat and take a quiet time out, the less she has to freak out about.

The same goes at home. If people approach her and she has a come-apart, she's telling you that it's too much for her to cope with. The best thing might be to just quietly and matter-of-factly put her in her crate or other safe area when people come over and give her a toy or treat. Then you can let her out after they are visiting normally and sitting quietly - but ask them to NOT interact with her. If people trying to make friends is scary to her, then they should just ignore her and let her sniff around and come to them if she feels like it. But if she's still unhappy and reactive, then just let her retire from the group and put her away.

Don't ever try to force her to meet anyone or make friends, and don't let people approach her if you see her getting upset. Learn her "tells" and body language as to when she's starting to get upset, and make note of what distance she is comfortable with new people or things. That distance is her threshold and it may take time to shrink that threshold to allow people closer.

And all the same goes with other dogs. Border collies can be extreme "breed snobs" and some simply cannot befriend the more boisterous, forward breeds like labs, boxers, golden retrievers or rottweilers, and others can't stand busy little yappy snappy dogs. The more friendly a strange dog may be, the more she may see it as an invasion of her space and a threat. She may do best for now with dogs who are calm, quiet and mostly ignore her, than with dogs who want to make friends or play.

I know others here will be able to give you more specific advice, so for now, I'll just advise to study for ways you might be able to reduce situations where she may feel overwhelmed and give her safe places to be or hide at the office, when people in that space may seem too much.

You haven't described anything actually out of the ordinary for border collies, nor anything new to these boards, so take heart!

~ Gloria

[Debbie Meier]

Sounds to me to be more of a dog thing, most any breed of dog is capable of the types of behavior that you are seeing. Sometimes the best thing to do is to take as much pressure and requirement as you can off the dog and just let her relax at home with you being a pet/companion and not expect her to be a performance dog. It's amazing how much pressure we place on dogs when we take them out and about and flood them with other people, other dogs along with all the sights and sounds. Then when they get nervous we in turn do the same because we don't trust the dog and then that in turn makes them get worse, feeding off each other.

 

I've worked with others that have had the same experience, in all cases it was dogs that were not dealing with the requirements that "society" placed on them but were great house dogs. My advice was to just let them be dogs for a while.

[KF1984]

Thanks for the replies.

Gloria-She has a crate at work, which she goes into if my husband knows someone she doesn't know is coming. But when someone shows up unexpectedly, she goes full on Cujo, jumping on them and snapping before my husband has a handle on the situation. He had been trying to counter condition her in these settings, but needless to say, nothing was improving. She is now in full time doggy daycare (my husband and I both work full time and leaving her at the house is not an option-she can jump fences ). She loves the people there and they say she does fine, but I don't know if it is stressing her out. We definitely instruct people to ignore her...that becomes difficult when she is snarling at them! But we keep her put away or on a leash and have strangers throw her treats if we have to have people at the house, and she very gradually (like a whole weekend) becomes used to them. I don't mind if she never loves strangers...I'd be great with her completely ignoring them.

Debbie- My husband and I drew that same conclusion tonight. Our own anxiety over the situation has most likely made it worse. If we could figure out a happy situation for her while we were at work and sorted out how to have guests over (we frequently have out of town guests for weekends), I think I could deal with the rest. Of course we had an extraordinarily mellow dog pass away 8 months ago, so we have that memory in our heads and perhaps are putting unrealistic expectations on Gypsy.

[Debbie Meier]

Sounds like day care is no problem, if she is fine there don't change it, rather learn from it to see if someone there can help you identify what is going wrong at home.

 

How often do you have strangers come to the house unannounced? If for the most part, you know when strangers to her are coming you may want to have a outside kennel build that she can't escape from that is also out of view if you were to take the stranger out to the back yard basically insulating her from the pressure and stress that both they and you are placing on her.

 

6 x 6 x 12 with a top on it sitting on a concrete pad or even a pad made of patio blocks works great. She can't go over, she can't dig out and she can have a place that she can be where you don't have worry when people come to visit.

[d112358]

I'd be careful about doggy daycare - it's easy for a reactive dog to be flooded by a situation like that and not everyone will pick up on that sort of discomfort.

 

For your husband's work, is there an issue with the default being 'in the crate' and only out to exercise at pre-specified times? That would make practicing the behavior there much less likely, and at 8 months she can handle spending a lot of downtime napping.

 

What was her early socialization (10-16 weeks) like? Did y'all do puppy class and introduction to a lot of strangers? Did all those experiences go well?

 

For your out-of-town guests, you can try parallel walking (with Gypsy on a leash, you doling out treats liberally) outside for a first intro to give her a lower-pressure way to get used to the strangers' presence. It keeps the people naturally focused forward, rather than on her, and gives you a good chance to gauge if she's under a reactivity threshold so you can choose when to close distance. You all end up arriving back at the house together so it seems less like strangers invading her space.

 

It'd also be worthwhile to look into group classes for reactive dogs, if she's exhibiting it at a low enough level that's appropriate for the class. Connecting with other people working through similar issues is a really positive experience for a lot of reactive dog owners.

[KF1984]

I had been worrying about daycare...they say she does fine but I've seen her snap at dogs on her way in. Of course, those dogs were barking in her face so it didn't seem particularly odd. I will talk to my husband about creating her...the only issue with that right now would be the heat. His office has limited ac but by this time of year, the weather should cool down any day. It's at least worth a try.

I have yet to try the walk outside to introduce new people for her, but have heard about it and think it could work. As for reactive dog classes, but vet behaviorist's business has them, but she doesnt think Gypsy is quite ready yet.

As for her early socialization, we had her as a 10 week old and did the best we could with lots of positive interactions. She was around calm, vaccinated dogs and came with us anywhere she could...I made lots of trips to Home Depot around that time just to have her meet new people (at that time she seemed to absolutely love it). So I'm not exactly sure where we went wrong.

But hey, she came to snuggle with me as soon as the alarm went off this morning snd is now playing nicely with our other pup...so its not all bad!

[CMP]

But hey, she came to snuggle with me as soon as the alarm went off this morning snd is now playing nicely with our other pup...so its not all bad!

I know other people have different experiences, but I have never owned a "cuddly" BC. Might be that I am not particularly "cuddly" myself.

 

Anyhow ... mine does this - flies in for what I call a "ninja cuddle" when I go to bed and right after she wakes up. They're quick and although they are full on cuddles, she nestles right in and sighs happily, they do not last long and if I make any sort of deal about it or try and actually cuddle her, she leaves :/

[KF1984]

Haha, she definitely only wants to cuddle first thing in the morning, once the day starts rolling, she is either fetching, stretched out on the floor or her bed, or playing with our other puppy. And she also will promptly get up and move if I start to fuss over her. She sounds like a ninja cuddler as well

[CMP]

I don't think there is a normal. I walked around the main yard this morning after I read this thread and tried to give a simple description for each dog that was around. All Border Collies:

 

Midge: Matronly

Moss: Matter of Fact

Old Moss: Alert

Heath: Laid back

Danny: James Dean in Rebel Without A Cause

Fletch: Anti-social but in a good way

Dara: 1,000,000 watts

Jesse: Byronic

Kelly: Bitchy

Unnamed Puppy: "You lookin' at me, punk?"

 

 

As to your issue I would try something easy and cheap first. I would enlist the aid of some friends and family - people the dog does not know well to come to your house and bring the socialization to her own territory. This can take the edge off the anxiety (which is what causes it) and make her feel safe.

 

Be sure not to let anyone invade her own space, whatever that is - her crate or place where her bed is.

 

Make it all about her - don't associate any negatives with it (such as a loss of your attention).

 

Make the visits short - work up to number of people and length of visit.

 

Make sure she uses her manners and talk her through the way she deals with people. Get on her level with her. Greet them the way she does. Treat it like you were dealing with an alien. No kidding :/

 

*ALL* positive, even (especially) the correction. She is not bad, she is anxious - she needs therapy not training.

 

I did this with a similar puppy - had people come over several times over a few weeks and then started taking her out in larger groups of people she knew so she felt safe and was engaged with the people. Then I just started eliminating the people until it was she and I.

 

Hope you figure something out

[KF1984]

Thanks for the suggestions, CMP, I hope we figure something out as well. In my most trying moments I have thought about trying to rehome her to a more BC experienced place, but I really want to work with her at becoming a relaxed, happy dog. She is so fun to watch play frisbee and is by far better at anything (non-social) than any other dog I have ever owned. I can see why people become addicted to this breed.

Your descriptions of your dogs made me smile I am tempted to just call Gypsy bitchy most days and hope we can get redefine that.

[Maxi]

I suspect that your dogs behaviour is NOT an 'inbuilt fault' instead, I wonder whether the fact that she was found abandoned as a youngster and bottle-fed by humans may have something to do with it. She may never have had important early life-lessons that her mother would have given her...so perhaps it's not surprising that she is now more anxious than some other dogs at the same age.

 

Don't feel pressurised by others to try and find a quick fix.

 

I used to have a rescue BC cross bitch who also had a bad start to her life. Initially, she reacted badly towards most dogs and humans. Fortunately, I had an older collie who she adored and he helped me a lot with her rehabilitation.

 

Even once she settled and stopped snapping at people and other dogs, she still hated cuddles and would often move away if folk got too close. After some time she quite liked if I sat quietly by her side in a relaxed fashion,not look at her and gently stroked the side of her face and her body. These sort of mimic a mother's nurturing licks. As your dog has never had this, it's possible that if you try something similar,she may seem uncertain about accepting even this kind of touch.

 

IMO CMP is right...she now needs to be shown how to be sociable to other dogs and humans in a gradual positive way. Be patient, Definitely 'therapy rather than training'.

 

I too hope you find a way through this.

[alligande]

Hope you find your way through it. My current dog has gone through all sorts of stages where he found life scary although none have been so bad we could not live with it. It has included being leash reactive to other dogs, has lunged and attacked diesel trucks, being terrified of children which involved backing up while barking deeply so rather terrifying for the kids too, passive urination when people came to the house. Through out it all agility was the one outlet he thrived in, it was a game we played together and I think that was the important element he felt safe with me and having fun with me trumped anything scary, at competitions no one believed me when I said he was a whimp.

Today at 5 he looks like a confident dog, we can take him anywhere and this summer we have been traveling in Europe so he has been dragged through all sorts of new adventures, children can maul him, diesel trucks are now tame monsters, but we know that he is still a big gooey marshmallow and realize that we are his protectors.

[Debbie Meier]

I just wanted to share a situation that I have with a pup that we bought from another breeder. Talking to the breeder it was revealed that she would be a toy hog and thump on her littermate, they thought it was just a puppy being a puppy. When she arrived here it was soon clear that she would resource guard and be protective.

 

Many would say to get on her case for it, but I found the best way to deal with it so that it didn't get worse was to protect her so she didn't feel the need to guard and protect. I found that she couldn't control herself and her emotions, no sense correcting her for the manifestation of the behavior when it was self control that she needed to acquire. She gets kenneled alone, fed away from the other dogs, no toys for anyone, if she is out and wanting to be at my feet the other dogs are either kenneled or I have dogs in the house that are not "needy" and likely to trigger her protectiveness.

 

My feeling is that as she gets older and learns self control, which occurs as she get further along in her training that the guarding and reactiveness with subside. And it has. She is now 1 year old and we don't see it, but we also still manage our household in a fashion that does not bring it out. So insulating her from those situations that she overacts in, that cause you stress will help to not practice that undesired behavior.

 

It's amazing what maturity and time will change. I've raised quite a few pups, and don't see where anything different could have been done early on except to identify the glitch and not allow it to intensify by practicing being a bully and brat, it's just her and the way she was wired.

[CMP]

^^ Great post.

 

I also agree that allowances must be made for individual personality quirks and traits in dogs and that training/development program must be flexible enough to allow for these things.

 

I have two dogs (berners, of course, big babies) who will not go up or down stairs that exceed three or four steps. So I don't make them and they just don't go anywhere that requires stairs. Never once occurred to me to get a "behaviourist" or anything like that. I am very old school, I am afraid.

[KF1984]

Sounds good. We will do our best to keep her comfortable and relaxed without pushing too much. As I said before, I certainly don't mind if she never wants to be petted or even around strangers...but I have very strong concerns that she will bite someone if not carefully managed, and if at all possible, I would like to do all I can to alleviate that tendency as she gets older. Has anyone ever had experience with a dog they may call reactive or aggressive towards strangers as an puppy/adolescent and having them just "grow out of it"? This is my first experience with this type of behavior and everyone is telling me different things: You have to change her attitude while she's young, or, She's just a teenager, she'll get over it. I feel like people here are telling me to just...stop obsessing over it?

[Debbie Meier]

Yup, have had some grow out of it, just protect them and don't make a big deal about it. Our old male dog never wanted anything to do with other people, I was always careful to not get him trapped by people or kids, though he was not aggressive I wouldn't have put it past him to snap if he felt trapped. We just always kept him out of high pressure situations always being certain he had a way out, actually a dog that did best off leash, he was always at our heel and if someone came close being off leash allowed him to slide which ever way he needed to avoid someone without feeling trapped. He's 8 now, and just this past year he has started going to people to be petted, when we are out and about, where as before is someone wanted to pet him we would make every effort to avoid them, actually hurt people's feelings. Now someone can call him and he goes right up to be petted. It had to be on his terms. He is still selective though.

[Debbie Meier]

When I say protect I mean by being aware of your surroundings and avoiding things that will add stress. For example if I need to go into a crowded area I would scan the area for the easiest path, look for kids and avoid them because they are unpredictable. If I had to I would go around.

[CMP]

Has anyone ever had experience with a dog they may call reactive or aggressive towards strangers as an puppy/adolescent and having them just "grow out of it"?

Yes and no.

 

Yes, I have had dogs grow out of undesirable puppy traits/habits/quirks - but never in a fashion I would describe as "just" - which implies without any "treatment" that it will go away on its own. That has happened, too, of course, but not usually about things like this.

 

Debbie Meier gives you very good advice, imo. Find the dog's triggers. Work against them on her behalf without allowing for the resulting bad behaviour to be acceptable. You can help her manage her fears by not responding to them with anger or frustration.

 

It's the difference between "Oh shut up! Stop barking! Fido! FIDO! FiiiiiiDO!" and "What's wrong, girl? What's that you see? Shhh, shhh. It's okay. No danger here, big girl!"

 

A smart dog guy once told me the surest way to a well trained dog is for the trainer to do everything in their power to ensure the success of the ask - don't ask for what you are not likely to get (ask for some smaller part of it, instead - every action has some small part you can get a success upon which to build).

 

And yes, do keep in mind that this is FAR from unusual puppy behaviour and has been successfully modified by lots and lots of people. Keep trying things, you will find the right method, I am sure - you're certainly asking the right questions.

[Maxi]

 

 

A smart dog guy once told me the surest way to a well trained dog is for the trainer to do everything in their power to ensure the success of the ask - don't ask for what you are not likely to get (ask for some smaller part of it, instead - every action has some small part you can get a success upon which to build).

 

 

^^THIS^^ ... brilliant way to put it...

[FlyByNight]

I will admit, that much as I admire and respect the breed from a distance, this sort of thing is why I will probably never have one. I am much, much better at working with a pushy, test-the-limits dog that needs to be told to knock it off and deal, than one that is actually afraid of things. I'm don't think I'm patient enough, and would ruin it.

 

Are there any "gritty" Border Collies? I've never heard one described as such, anyway.

 

Maybe an ACD for me... !

[Debbie Meier]

being gritty is independent from the issues that the OP describes and again isn't a border collie deal but a dog deal. Seen the same issues in aussies, acds, labs, etc.

 

Can have a gritty, pushy dog that is still territorial and/or resource guards.

[FlyByNight]

Same issues yes - but at the same rate? Not in my experience (see previous responders assurances that this is normal and not atypical of the breed).

 

I have also seen territorial/resource guarding dogs who are pushy. This is typically coming from a different place than one who is afraid, and therefore lashing out. The pushy dog resource guarding is on the offensive. The anxious one is on the defensive. In reading these boards, it seems most Border collies are on the defensive during these periods.

[CMP]

I will admit, that much as I admire and respect the breed from a distance, this sort of thing is why I will probably never have one. I am much, much better at working with a pushy, test-the-limits dog that needs to be told to knock it off and deal, than one that is actually afraid of things. I'm don't think I'm patient enough, and would ruin it.

 

Are there any "gritty" Border Collies? I've never heard one described as such, anyway.

 

Maybe an ACD for me... !

 

Heh. I have a farm full of people who would either laugh or get very put off by that question.

 

Gritty is as gritty does, I suppose. I dunno - do you have a dog that can work 8 hours a day every day? Will work through a fractured limb or torn foot? Can face down a fully horned and pissed off Ram?

 

I do understand what you mean - but like all dogs, BC come in all types - and I do know a few who would best be described as "take no prisoners".

[FlyByNight]

I do have a cur/hound that would work as hard, but he might eat the ram instead of facing it down. : P

 

I'm stereotyping of course though. I'm know there are gritty dogs among the breed - but I'm not talking specifically on stock either; I'm speaking more broadly, i.e. day-to-day living.

 

A better question might be: In a given litter, how many pups will be (environmentally) bombproof, and how many will have reactivity issues at some point in their life? If you were to average the litter between those two extremes, what side would it tend to fall on?

 

All I'm positing is that there are some breeds that exhibit great resilience in the face of upset and are known for it - they take things in stride and not much ruffles them. And there are others where stimuli need to be introduced more slowly and/or carefully. It's neither good nor bad; just a propensity.

 

As a less patient and often sloppy handler, I wouldn't be a good fit for the latter. I would actually argue that you must be a better handler to deal with that temperament.