What is a "normal" border collie?

[Camden's Mom]

A better question might be: In a given litter, how many pups will be (environmentally) bombproof, and how many will have reactivity issues at some point in their life? If you were to average the litter between those two extremes, what side would it tend to fall on?

 

I'm not an overly experienced BC owner, so take my opinion with a grain of salt, but I feel the breed is susceptible to these traits more then others *because* of the work they are breed for. BCs are not only physically capable of working 8 hour days, but they are mentally "on the clock" that entire time, too. They are bred to be hyper alert and aware of their surroundings, reacting to everything going on around them and making decisions from a distance independent of their handler. They run a marathon and balance the companies budget in that 8 hour work day.

 

((ETA: Forgot to add: You take that dog, who was bred to manage everything going on around him for miles on end, then fill his environment with joggers, strollers, skateboarders, emergency vehicles, children playing, other dogs, etc., etc., etc. you can start to imagine how overstimulating that must be.))

 

Now, I think every reputable breeder is striving for a solid, resilient temperament as well. Certainly a farmer doesn't want a dog that's irrational or reactive. As more and more people breed these dogs haphazardly (sporters - breeding for drive and performance, confirmation - breeding solely for physical traits, backyard breeders - matching dogs just to get pretty candy colors, etc.) it seems the temperament of the breed might be suffering a bit. Then there's general handling of this tightly wound, workaholic dog, which brings me to your next point:

 

As a less patient and often sloppy handler, I wouldn't be a good fit for the latter. I would actually argue that you must be a better handler to deal with that temperament.

 

I would agree with this statement. I think a lot of people get BCs because they think they are "easy to train". Quite the contrary. I think BCs are very trainable, but that is a completely different thing. I do think sloppy handling can lead to confusion and frustration for both the human and the dog. I can attest to that personally as I stumbled through the first 6 months with my puppy (who, btw, was extremely patient with me, lol). As my handling skills have improved so has our relationship and I'm seeing less and less reactivity on his part as he gets older and his trust in me grows. To be clear, he was never a super reactive dog to begin with, but I have no doubt my inexperience with handling any dog (much less a BC) probably set us back a bit.

 

I just want to make clear that the statements about poor breeding and poor handling are not in anyway directed to the OP or his/her personal situation. I'm just responding to FlybyNight's general observations about the breed and it's propensity to reactivity.

[CMP]

I think Camden's Mom hit it on the head.

 

So many people get a Border Collie because they've seen the Chaser show or watched them on television or heard how "smart" they are or think it would be cool to learn to herd sheep or play frisbee with a canine pal ...

 

I had two children. One an extremely gifted young man and the other a perfectly average girl in the intellect/intelligence department. You know which one was easier, right? NOT the gifted one. FTR, I love my children fiercely, those statements should not be read to indicate disfavour in any way.

 

When handled well, a Border Collie is an astounding creature - far beyond one's expectations in terms of intelligence and willingness to do what is asked of them - and well worth every little side of the road stop you had to make to deal with some issue or another.

 

Do they have issues? Of course. And when they do people take to the internet to ask about them. As the breed gains in general popularity this will increase. But I could tell you fifty stories right now about things that happened with any one of the Border Collies in my life in the last 24 hours that might change your mind. I just haven't started a post about it.

 

One of my father's dogs once came in from a lone run - gathering two stranded ewes and showing them home in the near dark - and he kept stopping and dropping into an unneeded down and finally my father started running towards him - none of us knew what was wrong. But he did. Sam simply didn't lie down on the job. He had a broken leg. Not quite dangling, but damn close. But the job was to get the ewes home. Gritty? By any definition, yes, I think so.

 

So that's what they can be made of.

 

It's a little like thoroughbreds, I suppose.

 

With so much breeding and such high stakes and so many different purposes (they run in the Derby, they show jump, they hang out in Fred's lean to down the road) you end up with the top of the line and the ... also rans.

 

As an example, none of the last Derby winners or runners came from Fred's Lean To and Breeding Farm. But that horse is as much thoroughbred as Secretariat was.

 

No one should jump on this, please, but in the BC world, the top of the line is the stock dog and not many of the top of the line variety end up in places where things like leash handling and reactivity to people in public places are the sort of major concern they are to pet and sport owners - they live in different environments and with different purposes/expectations/trajectories. Most of our stock dogs will spend their entire lives without ever being taken out in public and many of them will never have a leash beyond the lunge lines and what not used in training them.

 

You cannot judge this breed by the pet or sport owner - that is a subdirectory. To make an evaluation about the breed you need to be in the root directory.

[Camden's Mom]

No one should jump on this, please, but in the BC world, the top of the line is the stock dog and not many of the top of the line variety end up in places where things like leash handling and reactivity to people in public places are the sort of major concern they are to pet and sport owners - they live in different environments and with different purposes/expectations/trajectories. Most of our stock dogs will spend their entire lives without ever being taken out in public and many of them will never have a leash beyond the lunge lines and what not used in training them.

 

You cannot judge this breed by the pet or sport owner - that is a subdirectory. To make an evaluation about the breed you need to be in the root directory.

 

As a pet BC owner, who has put a LOT of time and effort into acclimating my dog to a world that must seems as alien at times to him as Mars does to me, I completely agree with CMP's above observations.

[CMP]

I wanted to add that, actually. "Yeah. Yeah. It's a scary thing, deal with it, dog." IS, in fact, very much a way one could describe many a stockman's approach to timidness/reactivity.

[Debbie Meier]

"Yeah. Yeah. It's a scary thing, deal with it, dog."

Seems that if you don't approach it that way that most, if not all, will take the position that they are suppose to react, without knowing it people maybe condition the dog to be reactive. I have personally seen dogs that would excel and do great under the care of one person who had the "deal with it" mentality actually melt down and turn to green goo when under the care of someone who believed that they were socially and mentally inept. It's like the dog became what the owner/handler believed them to be.

[stockdogranch]

"Are there any "gritty" Border Collies? I've never heard one described as such, anyway."

 

REALLY?! I suppose it depends on what circles you frequent. If you are only talking about "pet" border collies, or sporters, or whatever, I suppose that's possible. Just come visit me if you want to see some real hard-core bitches...

A

[KF1984]

Seems that if you don't approach it that way that most, if not all, will take the position that they are suppose to react, without knowing it people maybe condition the dog to be reactive. I have personally seen dogs that would excel and do great under the care of one person who had the "deal with it" mentality actually melt down and turn to green goo when under the care of someone who believed that they were socially and mentally inept. It's like the dog became what the owner/handler believed them to be.

[KF1984]

^^^^ Sorry, I haven't quite learned how to use someone else's quote in my post. This is exactly what I'm talking about. Should a city dweller like me who is freaking out about her BCs "reactivity" try to rehome her dog to someone who knows the breed enough not to freak out? I am not really asking that question, I love my dog and am not about to do that, but I do wonder how to let Gypsy excel. To my credit, I have chilled out substantially the last few days. And yes, I am an inexperienced owner/trainer who has a rescue dog...I have no idea what her breeding/background is. I have no insecurities about admitting all this and please feel free to judge as necessary...as long as you judge ME and not my dog. As for the "grittiness" of BC's, sure, she is a but crazy about new people, but quite frankly she is about as balls to the wall as anything I've ever seen. So perhaps a bit soft in "city" type settings but I can't imagine any dog being tougher in work/play situations. I obviously can't argue this point as a breed wide thing, but as someone who has owned several dogs, I have to say, she is physically tough.

[CMP]

^^^^ Sorry, I haven't quite learned how to use someone else's quote in my post. This is exactly what I'm talking about. Should a city dweller like me who is freaking out about her BCs "reactivity" try to rehome her dog to someone who knows the breed enough not to freak out? I am not really asking that question, I love my dog and am not about to do that, but I do wonder how to let Gypsy excel. To my credit, I have chilled out substantially the last few days. And yes, I am an inexperienced owner/trainer who has a rescue dog...I have no idea what her breeding/background is. I have no insecurities about admitting all this and please feel free to judge as necessary...as long as you judge ME and not my dog. As for the "grittiness" of BC's, sure, she is a but crazy about new people, but quite frankly she is about as balls to the wall as anything I've ever seen. So perhaps a bit soft in "city" type settings but I can't imagine any dog being tougher in work/play situations. I obviously can't argue this point as a breed wide thing, but as someone who has owned several dogs, I have to say, she is physically tough.

 

Of course you should keep your dog and of course you can make her life and your life quite wonderful and fulflling and everyone's happy. Not all Border Collies want to work stock, as anyone will tell you. Not all of them are good at it. Just that the ones that are, REALLY are. And the ones that MUST work stock or will not be happy are the ones who HAVE worked stock.

 

The point is, my guess is 5 out of 10 [1] Border Collies don't really DESIRE sheepdogness and of those 5, only 3 will have the abilities - physical and mental - to work at it. 0.25 of those 3 will retire due to injury within 2 years.

 

[1] All this is guesswork based on my experience - it is not even remotely scientific and assumes we are talking North America with its proliferation of the breed at an astounding rate. Farms are decreasing, dogs are increasing - the math is not super complicated. For the sake of simplicity, it includes every BC currently alive in NA.

 

So, it would not be a big stretch to not really worry too much about whether your BC needs to be a sheepdog or cannot be happy. Chances are, no. More importantly, if it never works stock, it will never miss it.

 

I often wonder whether people who give their BCs herding lessons and let them dabble with stockwork a few times a week/month/year are actually doing the dog any favours. I dunno. As the only one on a farm full of working dogs with a "pet" BC, I wonder whether I will lose her to the sheep or whether it is even fair of me to have her here so close and yet so far. Again, I dunno.

 

I love your attitude about your dog. Your dog is lucky and I bet she knows this

 

I think the best comes from these dogs when you accept that their heightened senses and awareness can create problems in environments which the breed's evolutionary progress has never had to contend with. The answer, in my opinion, is not to mistake super-sensitivity with fragility. These are not scared-cat dogs. When you see one go into a crouch and hunker down, you might think "fear" if you didn't know, but if you watch a stock dog work, you will understand that stance better. It is not fear, it is ... um ... them turning themselves into an antennae to best understand the situation.

 

If this behaviour is met with a heightened stress in the handler (and the dog WILL know) then it exacerbates the attempt to understand/survey the situation into an effort to make the situation go away so your stress will go away. Which makes you more stressed. And so on. Anxiousness and the behaviours that go with it feeds from handler to dog on a two way live wire.

 

I think you got it exactly right in your post. You can't micro manage a BC. You can't turn off their brains. You can't turn off their senses. You have to get sort of chill about them.

 

I find I say things like, "OMG, you are SUCH a dork, go to bed before I beat you in front of the children" (the dismissive saracastic threat carries in tone, trust me) whereas someone else might get agitated that they just got snapped at - VERY close to the nose - because they wouldn't pay attention to the cute puppy and turn it all into a different sort of training moment.

 

I don't need to teach her anything at all. She's five months old and she bloody knows not to snap at me. She would have bit me, if she wanted to. She didn't "miss", her teeth closed exactly where she expected them to. I don't need to say "no" or drag her off to her crate, I just have to banish her from my presence and let her know I think she's an asshat. Is she a "biter"? No, of course not, she's a dumb puppy. I don't need to do anything to prove my dominance, I can banish her - that is the ultimate domination and I need no other. She'll stop it and I'll keep dismissing her like she's the village idiot until she does. Works WAY better than anything else I have ever tried

 

If I was taking my dog for a walk - one that was supposed to be fun - and she started acting like a dork, I would just pick her up or walk as quickly as I could back to the house/vehicle and end the walk. If she barked for some of my food, I would not give her the usual morsel at the end. But I would probably ignore the barking past the initial command to stop it. I don't reward bad behavour with anything - and usually never with training, per se -and certainly not with my attention.

 

I think people can feel overwhelmed by the sense of obligation/responsibility that getting the "world's smartest dog" brings and REALLY don't want to screw up. Or read too much and have all these ideas about having to keep them busy every single second, or them manipulating you in some sort of evil way ...

 

I think you will get it all figured out and you and your dog will have an awesome life together.

 

 

Yeah, I don't know - I babbled again. Congratulations if you made it all the way through.

 

 

In my real life, I am a writer who subtracts and condenses on the second pass. The first pass is a little like projectile vomit and I am ashamed to admit it, but I only do one pass on internet forums - so I apologize for the particular ... um ... density of this post.

 

Namaste.

[FlyByNight]

Great posts from everyone. CMP, glad to hear "yeah, yeah, it's scary, now deal" is an acceptable attitude - it's most certainly one I subscribe to. I do travel in mostly sport/pet circles when it comes to BCs. And in those circles, these things crop up from time to time and everyone acts as if they must be treated with kid gloves. I think it is perhaps the mistaking of sensitivity with fragility.

 

Sadly, of the multiple farmers I know, none uses a dog for work. Perhaps because I'm in New England and farms are not that large. I know more hunters who seriously work their dogs. I'd love to see a "take no prisoners" BC.

[Maxi]

Hey. You love your dog, she no doubt feels the same way about you. You'll both find your own way to sort things out.

 

Everything you read on these boards is advice... . It is well intentioned, but based on the each writer's personal experience ...the thing about advice, is you can take it or you can leave it... some things will work for the pair of you, some wont

 

My first 2 BCs were off farm-stock, they lived with me in a small town near the country.. I worked full - time so I walked them morning & most evenings & they'd have some time to play in the garden.. In winter, because of the hours we worked, this exercise was often in the dark (& rain)..so sometimes this exercise was very short (I ended up calling these 'psychological walks'). But to counteract that we'd go for long walks at weekends and on long summer evenings. I'd try to find streams/rivers for us to ford, lakes to swim in and fences/styles for them to jump. During vacations we'd head out somewhere wilder, probably camp & just walk.

 

Yes ,we'd play ball & frisbee but I never felt the necessity to find something for them to "excel at".. we didn't do agility or flyball..we just hung out togther. they were my best pals and my companions, Although they'd put their heads down & eye stock, I never felt they NEEDED to work them (my 3rd BC was very different, you could just tell he needed to work sheep like a junky needs his fix.. but that's another story).

 

And in response to 'reactivity' ... well its a matter of what you are prepared to live with. Personally, my tolerence level has dropped significantly since I've taken up stockwork.. but I think that's mainly because I have more dogs around the house and because I want my dogs to know what it means to be calm because I think they work stock better if they have that mindset.

 

Similar to CMP, now if one of my dogs is acting as a dork, I think the best thing is to try to ensure that you do not reward bad behaviour (& what I consider bad behaviour will no doubt be different from what others do) and again similar to CMP, I tend to tell them to get away from me as a means to show them I'm annoyed (but again that's something I've learnt through the stock-dog world) . ..but how you decide to do this is up to you.

 

anyway.. that's my advice... well intentioned...but please just ignore it if it doesn't suit

[Scoutthebc]

:)Of course you should keep your dog and of course you can make her life and your life quite wonderful and fulflling and everyone's happy. Not all Border Collies want to work stock, as anyone will tell you. Not all of them are good at it. Just that the ones that are, REALLY are. And the ones that MUST work stock or will not be happy are the ones who HAVE worked stock.The point is, my guess is 5 out of 10 [1] Border Collies don't really DESIRE sheepdogness and of those 5, only 3 will have the abilities - physical and mental - to work at it. 0.25 of those 3 will retire due to injury within 2 years. [1] All this is guesswork based on my experience - it is not even remotely scientific and assumes we are talking North America with its proliferation of the breed at an astounding rate. Farms are decreasing, dogs are increasing - the math is not super complicated. For the sake of simplicity, it includes every BC currently alive in NA.So, it would not be a big stretch to not really worry too much about whether your BC needs to be a sheepdog or cannot be happy. Chances are, no. More importantly, if it never works stock, it will never miss it.I often wonder whether people who give their BCs herding lessons and let them dabble with stockwork a few times a week/month/year are actually doing the dog any favours. I dunno. As the only one on a farm full of working dogs with a "pet" BC, I wonder whether I will lose her to the sheep or whether it is even fair of me to have her here so close and yet so far. Again, I dunno.I love your attitude about your dog. Your dog is lucky and I bet she knows this :)I think the best comes from these dogs when you accept that their heightened senses and awareness can create problems in environments which the breed's evolutionary progress has never had to contend with. The answer, in my opinion, is not to mistake super-sensitivity with fragility. These are not scared-cat dogs. When you see one go into a crouch and hunker down, you might think "fear" if you didn't know, but if you watch a stock dog work, you will understand that stance better. It is not fear, it is ... um ... them turning themselves into an antennae to best understand the situation. If this behaviour is met with a heightened stress in the handler (and the dog WILL know) then it exacerbates the attempt to understand/survey the situation into an effort to make the situation go away so your stress will go away. Which makes you more stressed. And so on. Anxiousness and the behaviours that go with it feeds from handler to dog on a two way live wire. I think you got it exactly right in your post. You can't micro manage a BC. You can't turn off their brains. You can't turn off their senses. You have to get sort of chill about them. I find I say things like, "OMG, you are SUCH a dork, go to bed before I beat you in front of the children" (the dismissive saracastic threat carries in tone, trust me) whereas someone else might get agitated that they just got snapped at - VERY close to the nose - because they wouldn't pay attention to the cute puppy and turn it all into a different sort of training moment. I don't need to teach her anything at all. She's five months old and she bloody knows not to snap at me. She would have bit me, if she wanted to. She didn't "miss", her teeth closed exactly where she expected them to. I don't need to say "no" or drag her off to her crate, I just have to banish her from my presence and let her know I think she's an asshat. Is she a "biter"? No, of course not, she's a dumb puppy. I don't need to do anything to prove my dominance, I can banish her - that is the ultimate domination and I need no other. She'll stop it and I'll keep dismissing her like she's the village idiot until she does. Works WAY better than anything else I have ever tried :)If I was taking my dog for a walk - one that was supposed to be fun - and she started acting like a dork, I would just pick her up or walk as quickly as I could back to the house/vehicle and end the walk. If she barked for some of my food, I would not give her the usual morsel at the end. But I would probably ignore the barking past the initial command to stop it. I don't reward bad behavour with anything - and usually never with training, per se -and certainly not with my attention.I think people can feel overwhelmed by the sense of obligation/responsibility that getting the "world's smartest dog" brings and REALLY don't want to screw up. Or read too much and have all these ideas about having to keep them busy every single second, or them manipulating you in some sort of evil way ... I think you will get it all figured out and you and your dog will have an awesome life together. Yeah, I don't know - I babbled again. Congratulations if you made it all the way through.In my real life, I am a writer who subtracts and condenses on the second pass. The first pass is a little like projectile vomit and I am ashamed to admit it, but I only do one pass on internet forums - so I apologize for the particular ... um ... density of this post.Namaste.

I'm quoting this entire post so it will get read a second time. Excellent post! I cannot agree more with the statement that it's important not to mistake sensitivity for fragility. While I wouldn't describe my BC as gritty, she is a confident, "do anything" dog with the added benefit that she gives a crap about doing what I ask.

[Maralynn]

Gritty, hmm. What's your definition?

 

Twelve y/o Missy had advanced hemangiosarcoma. Still wanted to go for rides and push the sheep out of the barn. This was the dog that wouldn't come out of a kennel when I got her at three.

 

Nine year old Kipp had intestinal cancer. To the point where he didn't want to eat. He still grabbed the frisbee with gusto and tried to sneak out to work sheep. It's the reason I decided to try chemo (that worked for a short time) - he was so sick but wouldn't give up. RBC count got down to 13. He still trotted to the door to play old dog frisbee. And I'm the one who stopped the game so he wouldn't over do it. It was the essence of drive and work ethic. He always seemed to ask me "why" and push the limits.

 

Five m/o Kolt, having a puppy moment runs up to the wrong dog at SAR training. Gets startled and snapped at (it was fair, the other dog was under control) runs wide eyed back to me. We continue on with training. I see after we get him that he actually had a mark on his face. It made him a bit more cautious but it didn't shut him down.

 

My dogs are sensitive toward me. They don't need hard corrections (well, Kipp needed a few in his life - he was intense. And driven ), if I wasn't fair, my actions could shut them down. But they don't shut down to life.

[TEC]

I will admit, that much as I admire and respect the breed from a distance, this sort of thing is why I will probably never have one. I am much, much better at working with a pushy, test-the-limits dog that needs to be told to knock it off and deal, than one that is actually afraid of things. I'm don't think I'm patient enough, and would ruin it.

 

Are there any "gritty" Border Collies? I've never heard one described as such, anyway.

 

Maybe an ACD for me... !

 

If I understand correctly, the above post is probably a bit off topic to the questions posed by OP. I did not see lack of toughness or grittiness in KF1984's description. IMO your use of "gritty" is more akin to what is often referred to among Border Collies as "hard". A hard dog is often highly keen, and has it's own ideas how to handle stockwork situations. A hard dog has a difficult time taking commands that conflict with its own instincts. Trainers/handlers can be quite direct and firm correcting such a dog without fear that it will shut down. Others here likely have several other characteristics, but those are some that come to mind.

 

In contrast, a soft dog is sensitive to correction. The handler has to be cautious not to overly stress a soft dog, and almost any pressure has an effect. Soft does not equate with being weak in the way it moves stock.

 

The BC breed has soft and hard dogs at the extremes and many in the middle that are neither overly sensitive nor unduly head strong.

 

The above discussion of the term gritty agrees with my own definition -- a can-do, never-quit attitude, e.g. : stamina in hot, cold and wet weather; willing and able to hit a nose or hock when necessary; able to separate a difficult single and hold it.

 

Today I sent my dog out 150-200 yards to gather a widely scattered field. The first half of the OR was steeply down slope, so she built up a good speed before having to hop over a narrow dry creek bed at the bottom which was partially obscured by tall grass and uneven ground. I couldn't tell for sure whether she had sudden attack of clumsiness or whether the tall grass covered a rodent hole or something. In any event, from my vantage point on the ridge I saw her jump across, stumble and awkwardly roll several times. I was a little concerned. Hardly missing a beat she got up and continued a rather nice gather. She must have thought to herself, "Dang, I hope nobody saw that". I thought she showed a certain toughness carrying on as if nothing had happened.

 

Regarding KF1984's questions and issues -- Sounds like you are taking all the proper steps. Lots of good advice already given. I know BCs such as described who have improved substantially. Helping them took quite some time and lots of patience, consistency, and proper techniques guided by well qualified instructors. There is no quick fix. Owner education is critical. You will have to protect your dog from situations she is not ready to handle for a long time, and likely to some extent forever. You seem to be extremely bonded to her, and have mentioned several positive qualities. I say continue with a high level of effort, and be patient. Your hard work is essential. I don't believe adult dogs grow out of bad behaviors by themselves. If you are in this for the long haul, I say hang in there. -- Best wishes, TEC

[ourwully]

I told my wife about the alternate names of the dogs and she asked me what name I would give Juno. That was a hard question. My initial thought was that she was an enigma but that sounded pretty lame, then the next thought was friendly, but finally we came up with enthusiastic. Every thing she does she does with enthusiasm. It might be an interesting thread in itself to give alternate names for our dogs.

Bill

[ourwully]

TEC - Your description of your dog on the ridge was fantastic. I could visualize the whole senario. Although I got a border collie , with not even a thought about working stock, I can imagine it is highly rewarding to see such behaviour!

Cheers

Bill

[TEC]

Thank you. The story seemed topical to this thread, so I included it.

 

After a few years of stockwork, a person (no, not me?) can become a little callous/jaded to what a herding dog does, often on a daily basis, particularly Border Collies. On the one hand, well of course they are going to gather the stock to the best of their ability. But it doesn't take much effort to step back a little and just be in awe of a simple outrun. When something unusual develops (tripping and falling, for instance, or other hardships), it really puts a spotlight on the drive BCs and other herding dogs have to get around behind in order to locate and fetch the entire herd/flock to the handler.

 

It is rewarding. -- Thank you, TEC